-CARNIFEX-[LOC]
Da Blooze
+111|6654

Jay wrote:

That recall was politically fueled. There was what? One instance of an accelerator sticking? Funny how all the politicians talking about the dangers of Toyota products were Democrats from Rust Belt states I'd buy a Toyota over any American vehicle without a second thought.
It wasn't just one.

But the one that DID get all the headlines, involved a highway patrolman (read - someone who knows how to drive, especially in emergency situations) who had his brakes fail from trying so hard to stop the car, and eventually died in a fiery inferno (with his family as well?) after a horrifying high-speed scenario.

I'm pretty sure it gave Rupert Murdoch a semi when he heard about it.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/12516/Bitch%20Hunter%20Sig.jpg
west-phoenix-az
Guns don't kill people. . . joe bidens advice does
+632|6389

iceman785 wrote:

vinyl seats

SOLD!
https://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p123/west-phoenix-az/BF2S/bf2s_sig_9mmbrass.jpg
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6581|the dank(super) side of Oregon

'-CARNIFEX-[LOC wrote:

]
But the one that DID get all the headlines, involved a highway patrolman (read - someone who knows how to drive, especially in emergency situations) who had his brakes fail from trying so hard to stop the car, and eventually died in a fiery inferno (with his family as well?) after a horrifying high-speed scenario.

I'm pretty sure it gave Rupert Murdoch a semi when he heard about it.
there's a "runaway prevention safety mechanism" built into nearly all cars, including the lexus he was driving, it's called a fucking gear shift.  And if that doesn't work he could always turn off the fucking engine.  that poor motherfucker killed himself and his family because he was stupid.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6106|eXtreme to the maX

rdx-fx wrote:

All of the American auto manufacturers have systemic problems, from crippling union contracts, "reserve" worker contracts, outdated supply chains, and a culture of lazy engineering.

None of those problems are going to be fixed unless those companies are allowed to fail. Their assets, engineers, and workers that have value would be picked up by leaner, more agile companies.

That is how the system is supposed to work - not this ludicrous Soviet-style state-sponsored manufacturer setup we've fallen into.
I can attest to the lazy engineering
I was in the room when it was announced the next Mustang was going to have independent rear suspension, there was much sucking of teeth and shaking of heads - several decades after even the most basic Euro or Jap company had ditched live axles.
A lot of it stems from management, no-one wants to make a mistake so no-one does anything remotely imaginative let alone radical.
The unions are utter fuckwads who are shitting on the future of their members.

That and the US auto-industry macho culture means any exec who suggested making the next model smaller, lighter and more fuel efficient would be laughed out of Detroit.

Lame management hamstrung by the unions is not a good combination, however the unions never obstruct product innovation AFAIK.

I too like my Subaru

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2012-01-07 22:08:33)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
-CARNIFEX-[LOC]
Da Blooze
+111|6654

Reciprocity wrote:

'-CARNIFEX-[LOC wrote:

]
But the one that DID get all the headlines, involved a highway patrolman (read - someone who knows how to drive, especially in emergency situations) who had his brakes fail from trying so hard to stop the car, and eventually died in a fiery inferno (with his family as well?) after a horrifying high-speed scenario.

I'm pretty sure it gave Rupert Murdoch a semi when he heard about it.
there's a "runaway prevention safety mechanism" built into nearly all cars, including the lexus he was driving, it's called a fucking gear shift.  And if that doesn't work he could always turn off the fucking engine.  that poor motherfucker killed himself and his family because he was stupid.
Are there newer cars that prevent you from doing stuff like that, because it could potentially cause damage if you did it accidentally? I'm just curious. (I think the car they were in was a loaned vehicle from a dealership, so it was both new and unfamiliar to them...)

The whole thing lasted several minutes, and I remember that they had contacted authorities etc., so I would think that with that amount of time they would have tried everything. After the brakes eventually failed, I know I would be trying to kill the engine, shift into low gearing, etc...I assume a hipo knew to do that as well. It may have been blown out of proportion, but I don't see that many vehicles being recalled that quickly if it wasn't a legitimate concern.
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FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6411|'Murka

Wasn't it a floormat issue in the end? Not exactly mechanical...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6106|eXtreme to the maX

Reciprocity wrote:

And if that doesn't work he could always turn off the fucking engine.
Which locks the steering, also that model had some weird feature which prevented the engine being turned off while driving IIRC.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6538|Long Island, New York

FEOS wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Would be nice to get more specifics on how they defined the worst.  My GM vehicles have been extremely reliable.  Japanese are the most reliable?  What about all the millions of cars recalled by Toyota in the past year?
Safety and reliability tests, I guess. I'm sure they can be dug up somewhere. I don't mind GM trucks, but my first choice would never to be to go with a GM or Chrysler car.
They explained it on the website in the link.

I recently owned a Ford (2006 Focus; got totaled when a texting bitch ran a red light). I would own a Ford again without a second thought...but it's the only American-made vehicle I would consider.
Fords are pretty solid. My mom's had a 2011 Fusion since May and I love driving it when I'm not driving my Mazda 3. Phenomenal car. Roomy, has a solid kick to it, fantastic gas mileage.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6581|the dank(super) side of Oregon

-CARNIFEX-[LOC] wrote:

Are there newer cars that prevent you from doing stuff like that, because it could potentially cause damage if you did it accidentally? I'm just curious. (I think the car they were in was a loaned vehicle from a dealership, so it was both new and unfamiliar to them...)

The whole thing lasted several minutes, and I remember that they had contacted authorities etc., so I would think that with that amount of time they would have tried everything. After the brakes eventually failed, I know I would be trying to kill the engine, shift into low gearing, etc...I assume a hipo knew to do that as well. It may have been blown out of proportion, but I don't see that many vehicles being recalled that quickly if it wasn't a legitimate concern.
had he reached down and put the transmission into neutral he and his family would be alive.  thankfully, I don't think he killed anyone else with his stupidity.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6106|eXtreme to the maX
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6581|the dank(super) side of Oregon

Dilbert_X wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

And if that doesn't work he could always turn off the fucking engine.
Which locks the steering, also that model had some weird feature which prevented the engine being turned off while driving IIRC.
most, if not all,  mechanical ignition lock cylinder mechanisms will not lock the steering wheel when the key is rotated from the run to accessory position, especially when the shifter is not in park.  and as far as I know hybrid key/buttom systems and pure keyless systems are all capable of emergency engine shutdown.



most people treat a car as they would any other consumer level appliance.  This opens the doors, that starts the engine, this lever makes it move, that pedal makes it move faster, and that one slower and never mind whatever else might be involved in operating a 4 thousand pound weapon.    the idea of interfacing with the gearshift lever to do anything more than go backwards, go forwards, and put the vehicle in park is so foreign to most people that it can literally kill them.

Last edited by Reciprocity (2012-01-07 22:53:18)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5358|London, England

FEOS wrote:

Wasn't it a floormat issue in the end? Not exactly mechanical...
Yes.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6732|Cambridge, England
They also found a number of people complaining about brake pedal vibrations were just activating the ABS.... lol.
rdx-fx
...
+955|6591

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

They also found a number of people complaining about brake pedal vibrations were just activating the ABS.... lol.
Oh, you mean the "foot massaging" function?

Seriously, if you need your brake pedal to violently vibrate to tell you your wheels are slipping, you shouldn't be allowed to drive in the winter.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6106|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Wasn't it a floormat issue in the end? Not exactly mechanical...
Yes.
And an accelerator damper problem.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6106|eXtreme to the maX

rdx-fx wrote:

Seriously, if you need your brake pedal to violently vibrate to tell you your wheels are slipping, you shouldn't be allowed to drive in the winter.
With ABS its usually the first indication on a straight road.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
rdx-fx
...
+955|6591

rdx-fx wrote:

Seriously, if you need your brake pedal to violently vibrate to tell you your wheels are slipping, you shouldn't be allowed to drive in the winter.

Dilbert_X wrote:

With ABS its usually the first indication on a straight road.
Third indication, if you're familiar with the vehicle.

First indication you may slip is being on snowy, rainy, or icy roads.

Second indication is, "hey, I pushed the brake the same as I've done 1000 times before, and I'm not slowing down at a similar rate to the last 1000 times"

For me, the ABS "foot massager" is actually a distraction, and an impediment to feeling what the wheels and brakes are doing.

I know the "average driver" stops in a shorter distance with ABS. 
But the "average driver" composite includes dim-witted soccer moms in 'living rooms with wheels' (AKA mini-vans).
Average driver also didn't take their driver's license test in Alaska.  In the winter.
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|6710|Oklahoma City
The "Police Test" is the defining test between the US cars in my opinion.

Each year, a large local City (leaving name out for work reasons, but you can guess if you know me) has to buy numerous new police cars. About every 3-5 years (depending on when models change dramatically) they do stress tests of each of the competing vehicles. This involves buying one of each and putting it through a number of controlled environment tests, and buying one of each and giving them to a precinct to test. The precinct assigns them to select groups of officers who proceed to drive the hell out of them over the next several months, rotating so it is driven on all shifts, very nearly 24/7.

One of the measurements was how long the vehicle could last before any MAJOR (Usually drive train) repairs. Keep in mind this is under extreme circumstances, with heavy idling, and lots of rough driving, and your home version SHOULD perform better...

In the late 70's, all of the 80's, and the early 90's, the tests were pretty consistent:
Chevy: 250,000 miles
Ford: 200,000 miles
Dodge (Chrysler): 100,000 - 150,000 miles

Starting in the mid 90's, certain computer and electronic issues became one of the new "major issues". This was one of the things that hurt Chevy. Another is their notorious leaking cork intake gaskets. In the mid 90's through recently, the tests look more like this:
Ford: 250,000 miles
Chevy: 175,000 miles
Dodge: 150,000 miles

Cost wise, for police performance packages, the vehicles are in order like this:
Dodge
Chevy
Ford


My personal experience with them:
I have owned one Dodge (2005 Caravan). I will never own another (even though the Challenger is SOOOOO sexy). 31 days after we bought it (used with only 36K miles, and only 2 years old), going down the highway with cruise control on, the transmission suddenly broke apart violently enough to destroy the tranny case. It was fixed under warranty. 18 months later, while on a cross country, all highway trip, I accelerated up from 60 to 70 to pass a slow moving vehicle. When I did, the engine threw a rod, broke something that allowed all of the engine oil to drain out, and before I could get safely back into my lane and pull over, the engine had already seized up. Less than 65K miles. Dead and buried.

This is with me being anal about taking care of it.

My Fords:
#1 (1994 Taurus) - Bought it used. Drove it for 4 years, I put on about 65K miles. No issues. About 100K miles total. Repair costs: $0

#2 (1999 Taurus) - Bought it used. Drove it for about 2 years, I put on about 40K miles. Transmission went out and was replaced. About 100K miles total. Repair costs: $2,000

#3 (1999 Explorer, Current vehicle) - Bought it used. Drove it about 5 years, and put on about 75K miles. Fuel line was ruptured (pretty sure this was done by a factory mechanic that was having trouble getting the fuel filter off), passenger side door lock went out. Water pump went out. Master Cylinder went out. About 150K miles total. Repair costs: $900

My Chevys:
#1 (1991 Caprice) - Bought it used. Drove it about 2 years. Put about 50K miles on it. A few moderate electronic issues. Repair costs: $1,000.

#2 (2002 Impala, Current vehicle) - Bought it used. Drove it about 6 years. Put about 100K miles on it. Transmission started having some issues slipping, so I had it replaced under extended warranty. Computer went out. Cork intake gaskets started leaking. About 170K miles total. Repair costs: Actual (not including my warranty): $4,000


So with me, of these three, Ford has the best record. I also had an 86 (pre-Chrysler) Jeep that hit 250K miles with about $150 repair costs, but that doesn't really fit in. I have no experience with "foreign" cars. So I can't say. The thing is, I buy used American vehicles REALLY CHEAP. My current Impala has $4,000 in repairs in it. But I only paid $4,000 for it. So in some ways it is bad, because I have doubled the cost. In other ways, I have spent $8,000 on a vehicle that I have driven for 6 years and 100K miles, and that is pretty good. Considering I doubt I could buy a comparable Toyota for $8,000 at all, let alone that I could drive for 6 years and 100K miles with no extra repair costs... So it is a big debate from that standpoint too..


Lastly, on the ABS issue: I think the violent vibrations are actually panic inducing. I have driven all over icy roads. I can deal with them. I know when my vehicle is getting a little slide, and I can deal with it calmly, logically, and think through my situation instantly. That whole ABS thing snaps me into "WHAT THE F*** IS GOING ON HERE!!!!????" mode... Just one extra thing to process in my opinion.
rdx-fx
...
+955|6591

HITNRUNXX wrote:

So with me, of these three, Ford has the best record. I also had an 86 (pre-Chrysler) Jeep that hit 250K miles with about $150 repair costs, but that doesn't really fit in. I have no experience with "foreign" cars. So I can't say. The thing is, I buy used American vehicles REALLY CHEAP. My current Impala has $4,000 in repairs in it. But I only paid $4,000 for it. So in some ways it is bad, because I have doubled the cost. In other ways, I have spent $8,000 on a vehicle that I have driven for 6 years and 100K miles, and that is pretty good. Considering I doubt I could buy a comparable Toyota for $8,000 at all, let alone that I could drive for 6 years and 100K miles with no extra repair costs... So it is a big debate from that standpoint too..


Lastly, on the ABS issue: I think the violent vibrations are actually panic inducing. I have driven all over icy roads. I can deal with them. I know when my vehicle is getting a little slide, and I can deal with it calmly, logically, and think through my situation instantly. That whole ABS thing snaps me into "WHAT THE F*** IS GOING ON HERE!!!!????" mode... Just one extra thing to process in my opinion.
My 4-wheel vehicles;

1986 Jeep CJ-7 - 4 cylinder engine living at high altitude (ski resort town) was underpowered, hard to keep carb. adjusted.  Twitchy handling due to short "square" wheelbase, but handled decently enough if you knew what to expect.

1992 Nissan Sentra - All of the Japanese parts were fine (engine & transmission assembly, frame) - all of the fastener bolts used to put it all together in Smyrna, Tenn(or Ga?) rusted to failure, or near failure.  Left tail light short, so common on that model of Sentra that my wife recognized any Nissan Sentra "because the left tail light was usually out"

1996 & 1999 Subaru Impreza - flawless winter handling, completely reliable.
In my experience, Subarus don't catastrophically fail - they give plenty of 'creaks and groans' warning that they need service very soon, but they've never left me on the side of the road broke down.
The 1996 currently has 300,000+ miles on it, still runs, sitting in my garage. Original engine, transmission, and frame - front prop shafts replaced a couple of times.
1999 was sold when we moved.

2008 & 2010 Subaru Impreza - 2008 is non-turbo, 2010 is turbo WRX.  Again, flawless reliability, good winter handling. 
Not nearly as well balanced or agile as the 1996-1999 GC6/GC8 models (Hence the 1996 GC6/GC8 still in my garage).
Still, it's the only highly reliable, four door, turbo, good crash rating, AWD sedan on the market for under $30,000.
HITNRUNXX
Member
+220|6710|Oklahoma City
The WRX was actually my choice last purchase, but I couldn't find one for cheap enough... Especially since I thought they were beautiful with all the under-spoilers and other add-ons, which made them really expensive...

It is in the running for my next car.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5358|London, England
Vehicles I've owned:

1995 Chevy Camaro - Bought it in a lot outside of a military base. Overpaid and got killed on a ridiculous interest rate. Learned my lesson. The car was undoubtedly beaten on before I bought it, but I was left unimpressed by the overall build anyway. T-tops leaked, causing the headliner to collapse. Plastic interior pieces kept breaking. The switch that turns the brights on and off broke and the brights got stuck on. Just a really bad experience overall to the point that I'll probably never buy another Chevy.

2004 Triumph Speed Triple - Motorcycle that I bought when I got home from Iraq for myself. Used it as my daily driver for two years, through New York winters and all. Made the mistake of parking it under the bridge at school one week and the salt and sand they used to keep the bridge free of ice got into the electricals. Of course, the speedo had died after the first three months anyway, so whatever. Bike went through hell with me, I laid it down three times, winters etc but I would still expect it to have been more solidly built. I probably won't buy Triumph again.

1993 Ford Explorer - Bought this off my brother for $1k after he bought his Subaru. It was over 14 years old by the time I got a hold of it and I still had no problems with it. This thing was a damned tank. Towed by NYC for unpaid parking tickets on my bike after 1 1/2 years and I let them keep it

2011 Honda CR-V - This thing will probably last until my future kids are in college but I still just can't like it. The interior is just boring. The engine is boring. It's strictly a functional Point A to Point B vehicle, which is fine, but... boring.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5259|foggy bottom
my moms 2004 crv is a piece of shit
Tu Stultus Es
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5358|London, England

eleven bravo wrote:

my moms 2004 crv is a piece of shit
It's like an oversized go-cart
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5259|foggy bottom
get ready to spend a lot of money on maintenance in a few years

Last edited by eleven bravo (2012-01-09 08:28:32)

Tu Stultus Es
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5358|London, England

eleven bravo wrote:

get ready to spend a lot of money on maintenance in a few years
As soon as we buy a house I'm getting an F-150
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

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