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coke
Aye up duck!
+435|4904|England. Stoke
Thanks for proving my point there Dilbert.
uziq
Member
+153|1647
lots of leftists criticise israel. it's not anti-semitic. corbyn however did keep company with literal muslim terrorists. when bombs and dead innocents are involved it becomes a bit more serious. i am temperamentally left-wing but i do think the labour party has a problem with jews. since the fabians there has always been a strange (now ironic) aversion to international jewish banking capital. it's not even conspiratorial within the context of the labour struggle. but it very quickly morphs into jew hate.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,606|4301|eXtreme to the maX
Corbyn also associated with IRA terrorists, maybe he isn't anti-semitic, he's just a moron who likes hanging around with terrorists?

Just as Blair lies to associate with eastern-european strongmen, Trump seems to have thing for brutal plutocrats etc.

But of course objecting to the Israeli army killing children in Palestine is by definition anti-semitism now, so obviously he is.
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uziq
Member
+153|1647
the thing is, the labour party isn't really concerned with 'objecting to the israeli army killing children'. jewish MPs are barraged with hate and vitriol on twitter every day by useful idiots who are pro-corbyn/pro-momentum. it really is an unpleasant political atmosphere and israel isn't really even relevant.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,606|4301|eXtreme to the maX
So what does twitter have to do with Corbyn?
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Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,964|3553|London, England
I like Israel. I don't have a problem with how the Jews formed their own country and displaced the local populace. To take issue with that would be hypocrisy, as every single other country on the planet was formed in the same way. They created a country and have defended it repeatedly ever since.

Are they too embedded in American public life? Yes. They've built a very good propaganda machine here that creates ties between American Jews and Israel with things like birthright trips for young adults. The best way to create sympathy is to provide personal experiences and connections, which they do very well. It's all very above-board though, so it's difficult to criticize something any other country can do, and some of which do in fact do here (Thai restaurants in America are a form of propaganda too).

I don't think most criticism of Israel is anti-semitic in origin, I think that in the case of the labour party and the democrats here, it's largely an extension of rooting for the underdog. When you set yourself up as the defender of the working class, you're going to pull in many aggrieved groups into your tent. Palestinians are a naturally sympathetic group for these types to support. I get that. The problem is that there's a whole helluva lot of history involved and a lot of words written by anti-semites over the centuries that these people end up delving into to make their pro-Palestine cases. It's a very short trip from being anti-Israel to being anti-Jew.

The second issue is that rooting for the underdog leads many of these people to feel sympathy for Islam where none should exist. How so many supposedly open-minded, atheistic and liberal people have come to take up the cause of ultra-conservative religious zealots, the type they disparage in their own countries when they're Christian, is beyond me.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,606|4301|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

I like Israel. I don't have a problem with how the Jews formed their own country and displaced the local populace. To take issue with that would be hypocrisy, as every single other country on the planet was formed in the same way.
So why have issues with, say, Iran seeking to displace them and form a new country?
They created a country and have defended it repeatedly ever since.
Actually they were defeated by the Romans and displaced themselves. Since then they've reformed the country - why shouldn't the Palestinians have the same right - to defeat them and reform their country?
How so many supposedly open-minded, atheistic and liberal people have come to take up the cause of ultra-conservative religious zealots, the type they disparage in their own countries when they're Christian, is beyond me.
But you think its OK for 'conservatives' to take up the cause of ultra-conservative religious zealots in Israel?
Maybe you should look up where the word 'zealot' comes from.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-03-11 06:18:22)

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uziq
Member
+153|1647

Dilbert_X wrote:

So what does twitter have to do with Corbyn?
corbyn is overwhelmingly a product of momentum and their main organising space and area of discussion is/was twitter. like it or not, most UK mp's are now tweeting animals and  so on a daily basis they are exposed to the more unsavoury anti-semitic aspects of the momentum/corbynite crowd. you really don't have to spend long on those feeds before seeing that there is quite a nasty element to it, with a strong 'party enforcer' aspect.

corbyn is a charisma- and rhetoric-free zone, so thankfully we don't have a demagogue communicating directly to his congregation à la trump on twitter. but the political machine that led to his leadership election victory are always out in force there. take a dip.

re: jay, yes you're right that there is an underdog-psychology aspect to it, but then there is also the less sublimated and more obvious part wherein israel is increasingly becoming a militaristic right-wing autocratic state with very little international accountability. netanyahu is a thoroughly unpleasant fellow and his political ideology is pretty easy to critique without needing to dust off your copy of 'the protocols of the elders of zion' and repeat some anti-semitic propaganda.

Last edited by uziq (2019-03-11 13:42:59)

coke
Aye up duck!
+435|4904|England. Stoke
Exactly it's the people and attitudes Corbyn "encourages" rather than Corbyn himself.
What do people born and bred in Britain who show no affection or support to Israel have to do with Israel apart from being Jewish, and yet when they complain about people abusing/slandering them, they get "but what about what Israel does to the Palestinians! hurrr durrr".

As for the Iranians and Palestinians trying to replace or reform other states, they been trying since the 40's and it's not worked out so far has it.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,606|4301|eXtreme to the maX

coke wrote:

As for the Iranians and Palestinians trying to replace or reform other states, they been trying since the 40's and it's not worked out so far has it.
It would if the US didn't step in each time, or preemptively demolish Iraq and destabilise Iran.

Exactly it's the people and attitudes Corbyn "encourages" rather than Corbyn himself.
What encouragement has Corbyn given? It seems the only thing he's done was to decline to sign up to the new and bizarre definition of anti-semitism.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-03-13 05:39:19)

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SuperJail Warden
Member
+188|1915
Is the Catholic Church really responsible for the clergy child abuse? So far the Catholic Church in the U.S. has had to pay out $3 billion to victims and that doesn't seem fair.
uziq
Member
+153|1647
you are absolutely ignorant if you think the catholic church isn't responsible. they actively rotated known pedophile priests around to new congregations and parishes. it was known about, and it was systemic. worse, they are responsible for a lot of graves in ireland -- mother's and children's. don't let your weird quisling admiration for the white european's culture carry over into blind admiration for the catholic church.

even leading theologians and people in the church have written books and studies about the problematic culture of sexual abuse and closet homosexuality that the church's culture breeds. it's basically an occupational hazard and is directly tied in cause to the strictures and regulations enforced by the church on seminarians' sex lives. if the church relaxed its rules on sex and marriage in the clergy, a lot of abuse and inherited hurt would probably right itself. it is an unforgivable institutional problem and the catholic church is absolutely responsible.

We have no reliable figures on just how many priests in the Catholic Church are gay. The Vatican has conducted many studies on its own clergy but never on this subject. In the United States, however, where there are 37,000 priests, no independent study has found fewer than 15 percent to be gay, and some have found as many as 60 percent. The consensus in my own research over the past few months converged on around 30 to 40 percent among parish priests and considerably more than that — as many as 60 percent or higher — among religious orders like the Franciscans or the Jesuits.
(http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/ … hurch.html)
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,964|3553|London, England
This whole mess started because Rome wanted to reassert control over provincial priests. They were unhappy that "priest" was becoming a hereditary title and reasserted control over ordination by forcing celibacy on the priesthood. I think we're well past the point where this is justifiable, but Catholics in general would rather see their church destroyed than agree to any changes. Conservative to the point of stupidity, they deserve every penny in civil judgement they've been hit with.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+153|1647
precisely, the current sex abuse climate was created by an intervention of church doctrine relatively recently, and they have failed to take accountability for the frankly unhealthy atmosphere they’ve created ever since. moving offending priests around and trying to brush everything under the carpet just doesn’t work anymore. the church on this matter has been seriously compromised and everyone evidently from the very senior ecclesiatical figures (as in australia) to the commonest parish curate or educator (as in ireland) are involved in it.

if it were any other worldly organisation then people would be talking about toxic or problematic workspaces. when the culture of sexual harassment was uncovered at uber, for example, it was addressed pretty quickly and people were held accountable. the church hasn’t done anywhere near enough to own responsibility for the fact that it has enforced a homosexual and repressed priesthood.

Last edited by uziq (2019-04-17 04:17:20)

SuperJail Warden
Member
+188|1915
I am just upset the church had to pay money to people. That money could have been put to good use and give that French church a new roof rather than some adults a Payday.

Besides no amount of money will unfondle your privates.
uziq
Member
+153|1647
you are pretty stupid to think an institution as rich as the church can’t afford both a lawsuit and a spot of reconstruction. why are you reasoning like a gobbet? they are not mutually exclusive.

Last edited by uziq (2019-04-17 05:36:35)

SuperJail Warden
Member
+188|1915
I just don't think the victims deserve money. At least not all of them. As an adult they should just get over it like most adults do about stuff.
SuperJail Warden
Member
+188|1915
Grown men shouldn't cry on t.v. or in public. A priest touching you a long time ago is nothing to cry about.
uziq
Member
+153|1647
you are a fucking idiot.
SuperJail Warden
Member
+188|1915
You think it is okay for men to cry?
uziq
Member
+153|1647
i'm sure your dad did when he realised he had raised a fuckup.
SuperJail Warden
Member
+188|1915
Were you molested as a child?
uziq
Member
+153|1647
... no. i didn't go to a religious school or have any exposure to organised religion. here in england we have a very pleasant and uninvasive strain of sunny anglicanism. no roving priest's hands near me, sorry. but you are being an obtuse idiot (or a troll, as i usually suspect) to say that someone who was abused as a child should put up and shut up and not demand justice. it's an abuse of trust by a person elevated to a position of responsibility within a community. being diddled like that by a figure who is invested with the authority of the community can leave a person with life-long hang-ups about trust, commitment, etc. it's nothing like saying 'so a guy touched your dick, get over it'.

Last edited by uziq (2019-04-17 14:49:56)

DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+707|4880|United States of America
That's some pretty toxic masculinity you got there, bro. It's very refreshing to have a good cry every now and then.
uziq
Member
+153|1647
he can’t even make his own bed. he hits on women with mental slowness. he ain’t a man. he’s projecting.

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