Gender discrimination in the workforce (US)

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Gender discrimination in the workforce (US)

2011-11-02 23:33:33

[-DER-]Omega: membeR; +188|7066|Lithuania

Hey guys, I'm writing a paper on gender discrimination in the United States and I keep coming across this figure that women encounter a "glass ceiling," earning roughly 70-80% of what men earn. My question is that, is this due to discrimination or merely the choices that women make, such as vocation, hours worked, lifestyle, etc (which are mentioned in the video below)? Please provide trustworthy sources if possible.

http://www.womensmedia.com/new/Lips-Hil … -gap.shtml

^ That link seems to refute much of what's discussed in the video but I don't know how legit and unbiased womensmedia.com is.

Thanks.

https://bf3s.com/sigs/fe717ed1eb823c939460a42f15bced7dd0057c51.png

2011-11-02 23:47:29

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|6955

Video is pretty much correct on an economic level. You have to compare the pay in exactly the same field of work between man and women, not on an wage basis. There's a lot of places that men dominate a lot more than women and that's mostly blue collar jobs.

https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png

2011-11-03 02:44:20

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6650|'Murka

I'd say that the video is pretty much spot on.

The interesting research would be to see how the womensmedia people came up with something so completely different. What models did they use? My guess is they didn't account for the variances the video did, but cba to look that deeply this early in the morning.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-11-03 03:14:02

Jenspm: penis; +1,716|6971|St. Andrews / Oslo

Soo, it's essentially saying that wage gaps are mostly a product of societal discrimination rather than industrial? Sure, but one leads to the other, and his argument only works if you isolate single careers.

The issue, as he pointed out, is that there is a societal pressure on women to go into a fixed set of jobs, and men for another. And it can be argued that the wage-demands in the male-dominated jobs are a lot higher due to societal norms of men dominating women. It's getting better, mind, but the possibility of female-dominated jobs being underpaid compared to male-dominated jobs cannot be brushed away like he does in the video. It's not as easy to prove as 'same job, same pay'-styled arguments, but still important to look into.

And there IS a glass ceiling when it comes to women-in-power, because we have this idea that a powerful position demands masculine features. Why else do you think the worlds top female politicians all have the short-haired low-make-up 'masculine' image (in the words of ol' Silvio, making them "unfuckable lard-arses") while Sarkozy, Berlusconi and co. can look as polished as they'd like? How many people do you think would factor in gender when voting between a male and female US president? My guess: many. And surely this can be found in the work-place as well.

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/26774/flickricon.png

2011-11-03 03:37:37

Shahter: Zee Ruskie; +295|7015|Moscow, Russia

societal discrimination my ass. men and women are different kinds of human being. as long as biological differences are not looked at this discussion is pointless.

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

2011-11-03 03:45:32

Jenspm: penis; +1,716|6971|St. Andrews / Oslo

Shahter wrote:
societal discrimination my ass. men and women are different kinds of human being. as long as biological differences are not looked at this discussion is pointless.

They aren't looked at, because they aren't relevant. It doesn't matter if women's average IQ is higher or lower than men, just like it doesn't matter if Russians, on average, are dumber than Americans, or if people from the south are smarter than people from the north, or if people with houses facing the sun tend to be brighter than people with houses in the shade.

People should be looked at as individuals, not as a part of some arbitrary group.

2011-11-03 03:53:04

Shahter: Zee Ruskie; +295|7015|Moscow, Russia

Jenspm wrote:
Shahter wrote:
societal discrimination my ass. men and women are different kinds of human being. as long as biological differences are not looked at this discussion is pointless.
They aren't looked at, because they aren't relevant. It doesn't matter if women's average IQ is higher or lower than men, just like it doesn't matter if Russians, on average, are dumber than Americans, or if people from the south are smarter than people from the north, or if people with houses facing the sun tend to be brighter than people with houses in the shade.

People should be looked at as individuals, not as a part of some arbitrary group.

orly? when the statistics of OP have been collected and analyzed have individual traits - which, btw, are heavily dependent on biological specifics - of every person been taken into account?

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

2011-11-03 04:05:04

Jenspm: penis; +1,716|6971|St. Andrews / Oslo

Shahter wrote:
Jenspm wrote:
Shahter wrote:
societal discrimination my ass. men and women are different kinds of human being. as long as biological differences are not looked at this discussion is pointless.
They aren't looked at, because they aren't relevant. It doesn't matter if women's average IQ is higher or lower than men, just like it doesn't matter if Russians, on average, are dumber than Americans, or if people from the south are smarter than people from the north, or if people with houses facing the sun tend to be brighter than people with houses in the shade.

People should be looked at as individuals, not as a part of some arbitrary group.
orly? when the statistics of OP have been collected and analyzed have individual traits - which, btw, are heavily dependent on biological specifics - of every person been taken into account?

It's a statistical analysis, made to prove that within the same job women and men are paid the same..

My point is that a) women are pressed into 'female' jobs which often pay less, b) we cannot look away from the possibility that female-dominated jobs are underpaid compared to male-dominated jobs, and c) it's more difficult for a woman to get into a seat of power than men ie. glass ceiling

All of the above are due to discrimination and judging women as a group of women rather than a group of individuals. There is no reason why 'woman x' should be any worse a president than 'man y' just because "she's a woman", just like there's no reason why 'black man a' should be any worse than 'white man b' just "because he's black", yet there are many people who (sub-consciously or otherwise) think so.

2011-11-03 04:26:33

Shahter: Zee Ruskie; +295|7015|Moscow, Russia

Jenspm wrote:
Shahter wrote:
Jenspm wrote:
They aren't looked at, because they aren't relevant. It doesn't matter if women's average IQ is higher or lower than men, just like it doesn't matter if Russians, on average, are dumber than Americans, or if people from the south are smarter than people from the north, or if people with houses facing the sun tend to be brighter than people with houses in the shade.

People should be looked at as individuals, not as a part of some arbitrary group.
orly? when the statistics of OP have been collected and analyzed have individual traits - which, btw, are heavily dependent on biological specifics - of every person been taken into account?
It's a statistical analysis, made to prove that within the same job women and men are paid the same..

but, statistically, they shouldn't be paid the same - that's my point. men are statistically - surprise! - better suited for a lot of jobs then women, because - surprise! - men are statistically smarter, stronger, faster and certainly a lot less burdened by certain... ehm... women's gender specifics. men and women performing similarly within the same job should be paid the same - that's what i would agree with, but OP, imo, definitely haven't done enough research into that.

My point is that a) women are pressed into 'female' jobs which often pay less, b) we cannot look away from the possibility that female-dominated jobs are underpaid compared to male-dominated jobs, and c) it's more difficult for a woman to get into a seat of power than men ie. glass ceiling

All of the above are due to discrimination and judging women as a group of women rather than a group of individuals.

orly? "all of the above" may just as well be based on poor performance within certain jobs by women compared to men.

There is no reason why 'woman x' should be any worse a president than 'man y' just because "she's a woman"

no, there no reason she should be judged like that based on her gender. but we are talking statistics here, remember?

just like there's no reason why 'black man a' should be any worse than 'white man b' just "because he's black", yet there are many people who (sub-consciously or otherwise) think so.

there are certain distinctive statistically proven racial characteristics for every race. should we judge every person based on that? no, absolutely not. but should we take those into account when conducting statistical research?

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

2011-11-03 04:48:42

Jenspm: penis; +1,716|6971|St. Andrews / Oslo

I think we essentially agree on the whole but are just talking past each other.

The problem with these 'statistical analyses' is that the path from "on average, group x is better suited than group y at z" to "everyone in group y are bad at z" is a short one, thus creating unfair judgments and generalisation. Which, essentially, is why any study that shows that a certain group of people are worse than others at a certain task always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

We do not go to a job interview in a football strip, because first impressions are extremely important. It's highly unfortunate if going in as a woman has the same effect.

Statistics are not discriminating in themselves, but they create discrimination. There was an example of an American university not long ago that had higher entrance requirements for Asians because they, on average, worked harder than Mexicans, and thus were (on average) not as smart as a Mexican with the same set of grades. Which is shocking, if you think about it.

2011-11-03 04:56:02

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX

Women don't get to be part of 'the club', so their careers are usually slightly limited.

Fuck Israel

2011-11-03 04:59:13

FloppY_: +1,010|6525|Denmark aka Automotive Hell

This issue was up not too long ago here in DK, I think it faded because it was shown that women don't aspire to managment positions as much as men and prioritize time for family higher and as such avoid extra hours when possible, or something like that...

Your thoughts, insights, and musings on this matter intrigue me

2011-11-03 05:21:55

Shahter: Zee Ruskie; +295|7015|Moscow, Russia

Jenspm wrote:
I think we essentially agree on the whole but are just talking past each other.

The problem with these 'statistical analyses' is that the path from "on average, group x is better suited than group y at z" to "everyone in group y are bad at z" is a short one, thus creating unfair judgments and generalisation. Which, essentially, is why any study that shows that a certain group of people are worse than others at a certain task always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

We do not go to a job interview in a football strip, because first impressions are extremely important. It's highly unfortunate if going in as a woman has the same effect.

Statistics are not discriminating in themselves, but they create discrimination. There was an example of an American university not long ago that had higher entrance requirements for Asians because they, on average, worked harder than Mexicans, and thus were (on average) not as smart as a Mexican with the same set of grades. Which is shocking, if you think about it.

i would agree with most of this. all i wanted to point out is that it's fucking time everybody acknowledged a simple fact that men and women are different. very different. should women be given the same rights? absolutely. with regards to job and pay they should be given the same right to prove they deserve to be paid the same as men by performing the same, even though statistically they have smaller brains then men, lower center of mass, their skeletons are more fragile than men's, their muscles are attached to their bones at places and angles that do not allow for as efficient application of force as men's, their whole metabolism is turned upside down and back monthly and the whole lot of other stuff that makes them... women. you know, those lovely things that horrible over-payed men have been known to give their lives for.

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

2011-11-03 05:32:26

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5597|London, England

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-11-03 05:57:09

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5597|London, England

Gender 'bias' is mostly a product of gender roles. It's a fact that many women base their career choices and their actions within their careers on the fact that they want to be mothers. It's why so many women go into teaching, or work part time jobs, they get to match schedules with their offspring. For non-teachers, a lot of women take time off from their careers during the peak growth period in order to raise a family. Even a simple two month maternity leave sets them back. "But that's not fair!" Ok, well how would you feel if a male decided to take two months off for purely personal reasons, to travel the world, to masturbate on the couch, it doesn't matter, and then came back like nothing happened and expected equal pay? You'd be enraged.

So while you can never discount outright misogyny, the large proportion of 'the pay gap' is a product of personal life decisions.

2011-11-03 07:35:36

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|6955

Technology and increase of service industry has aided women participation in the labour force. As I said, gotta look at same degree/area of study instead of degree level. Plus loads of women would rather churn out babies and live at home than work all the time. Just life choices.

2011-11-03 07:50:09

HITNRUNXX: Member; +220|6949|Oklahoma City

In my workplace, almost all of the upper management positions are filled by women. Plus, most of the women have come in fighting for higher wages from the start, meaning they are typically STARTING higher than the men. Men seem to be accepting the job Pay Range as "Start at the bottom, and work your way up" as it is written in policy. Women tend to use current jobs to be competitive against the new job, often allowing them to start higher up in that pay range.

I started here when I was 22. They give yearly step raises and yearly cost of living raises. After 7 years, a female friend came from another job over here and was able to negotiate a salary that was slightly above what she was making with another company. So she actually came onto my team, doing the same job as me, making a few grand a year more than me. This is pretty typical here.

2011-11-03 08:08:05

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5597|London, England

HITNRUNXX wrote:
In my workplace, almost all of the upper management positions are filled by women. Plus, most of the women have come in fighting for higher wages from the start, meaning they are typically STARTING higher than the men. Men seem to be accepting the job Pay Range as "Start at the bottom, and work your way up" as it is written in policy. Women tend to use current jobs to be competitive against the new job, often allowing them to start higher up in that pay range.

I started here when I was 22. They give yearly step raises and yearly cost of living raises. After 7 years, a female friend came from another job over here and was able to negotiate a salary that was slightly above what she was making with another company. So she actually came onto my team, doing the same job as me, making a few grand a year more than me. This is pretty typical here.

My fiancee did the same thing when she changed companies but now has to fight tooth and nail for any salary increase because she's paid more than the people one step above her on the management level

2011-11-03 19:53:01

HollisHurlbut: Member; +51|6237

FEOS wrote:
I'd say that the video is pretty much spot on.

The interesting research would be to see how the womensmedia people came up with something so completely different. What models did they use? My guess is they didn't account for the variances the video did, but cba to look that deeply this early in the morning.

From what I read of the second link, it appears that, in order to "refute" claims such as those made by the video, they looked at each individual claim on its own, found a wage gap, and used that to claim the wage gap still exists. For example, they talk about disparities in education, see that a wage gap still exists between male and female college grads, ignore the fact that men and women don't graduate with the same degrees at the same rates and women take time off for kids more frequently than do men which lowers their skillset and time in the field, and claim there's still a problem. Essentially, they're making the same blunder the 75% claim makes, only with an additional variable.

As for the OP, June O'Neill (former head of the Congressional Budget Office) has done some amount of study.

Links:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 … 57916.html
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct= … Rbn56z43GQ

On another note, it seems interesting to point out the fact that either the wage gap is a myth, or the "fat cat" corporations aren't that ruthlessly profit-driven, since they are either paying women the same amount or overpaying for the labor they receive by a third.

Last edited by HollisHurlbut (2011-11-03 19:54:09)

2011-11-04 00:17:16

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX

Women tend to be less ambitious, less psycopathic, less greedy and less interested in work related travel.

I'll bet the average wages are also skewed by men doing long hours in hard physical jobs and execs who've plugged the 60 hour weeks for decades.

Fuck Israel

2011-11-04 10:02:03

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5825

Women less psychopathic? Must be joking.

2011-11-04 12:48:02

HITNRUNXX: Member; +220|6949|Oklahoma City

Dilbert_X wrote:
Women tend to be less ambitious, less psycopathic, less greedy and less interested in work related travel.

I'll bet the average wages are also skewed by men doing long hours in hard physical jobs and execs who've plugged the 60 hour weeks for decades.

I would say the women here are generally less ambitious, but they are usually more encouraged to move up...

As a whole, in my workplace, they are much more psychopathic, more emotional, base their decisions on personal reasons more often, want more money for the same amount of work (or less in a ton of cases), and use up about 300% more travel expenses than their male counterparts...

Not sure where you base your statements... Not my experience.

2011-11-04 19:04:15

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX

They're more neurotic and bitchy at a the average level, they just don't have the drive and aggression to reach the top.

Generally speaking.

Fuck Israel

2011-11-04 19:14:32

SEREMAKER: BABYMAKIN EXPERT √; +2,187|6808|Mountains of NC

can't beatem

join em

https://celebslam.celebuzz.com/images/chaz-bono-no-neck.jpg

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/carhartt.jpg

2011-11-04 21:59:02

[-DER-]Omega: membeR; +188|7066|Lithuania

Thanks everyone.

I just found out my teacher, who's an aged man, finds the act of opening a door for someone sexist in that it's implying inherent weakness in women. Seriously, I've opened many doors in my time for everyone - women, men, children and elder folk and not once did I think that the act was anything else but a gesture of politeness. What's everyone's thoughts on this?

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Shahter wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

HITNRUNXX wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

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