lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

Monkey Spanker wrote:

lowing wrote:

Monkey Spanker wrote:

Lowing I must correct you. It was the Scottish government that released him & not the British. The Scottish have there own legal system in a devolved parliament, so blame them. Please get your facts right sir.
I was not there, the article and the headlines refer to Libya warning Britain.Those are the facts. Take it up with them.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/0 … hi-release 



"The repeated disclosures again raise questions about whether UK ministers and officials influenced or forced the Scottish government to free Megrahi on compassionate grounds to suit the UK's political and commercial interests in Libya."
So you just repeat verbatim what was said on a website with out looking into the facts. OK cheers for that. If its on the internetzzz it must be true. Move along nothing to see here.
what the hell does that mean? How am I supposed to check the facts of the internet without the internet? That article is blasted all over the internet.

I mean with your criteria, when it come right down to it how do we know there was even a plane crash? I mean, all I did was read about it, I never saw it and I wasn't there. Time to get real.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

[dd that the group your irrefutable source claims is actually responsible (PFLP-GC) never claimed credit, as any terrorist organization would, in order to bring attention to their cause. Even more odd that defecting Libyan officials have stated Daffy ordered the attack himself. Now, they could be just saying that to curry favor...or they could be telling the truth...which available evidence corroborates...or it could all be a big CIA conspiracy.
Or they didn't claim it as they were contracted to do the job by the Syrians?

And since they're apparently completely incompetent at their job (see your WMD remark), that conspiracy wouldn't have lasted all this time..
It barely lasted and was about to fall, they got out of it by letting the guy out of prison.

So tell us how competent those geniuses are if they were fooled by Saddam and brow-beaten by Cheney?
Fuck Israel
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6650|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

[dd that the group your irrefutable source claims is actually responsible (PFLP-GC) never claimed credit, as any terrorist organization would, in order to bring attention to their cause. Even more odd that defecting Libyan officials have stated Daffy ordered the attack himself. Now, they could be just saying that to curry favor...or they could be telling the truth...which available evidence corroborates...or it could all be a big CIA conspiracy.
Or they didn't claim it as they were contracted to do the job by the Syrians?
Stretch, just to make the conspiracy fit. Syria has the resources to do it themselves. If a terrorist group did it, they would claim it...otherwise, they have no reason to do it.

Dilbert_X wrote:

And since they're apparently completely incompetent at their job (see your WMD remark), that conspiracy wouldn't have lasted all this time..
It barely lasted and was about to fall, they got out of it by letting the guy out of prison.
Barely lasted? How long ago was the trial again? And the CIA didn't "let the guy out of prison" as the CIA didn't have the guy in prison to begin with. Seriously. Your logic trail to maintain your conspiracy theory is better than a roller coaster at an amusement park.

Dilbert_X wrote:

So tell us how competent those geniuses are if they were fooled by Saddam and brow-beaten by Cheney?
It's your logic/argument--not mine--that says they were super-competent evil geniuses and incompetent boobs simultaneously...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

Stretch, just to make the conspiracy fit. Syria has the resources to do it themselves. If a terrorist group did it, they would claim it...otherwise, they have no reason to do it.
No, Syria has always been the number one suspect for Lockerbie.
Like Iran, they're happy to take their revenge without fanfare.

Barely lasted? How long ago was the trial again? And the CIA didn't "let the guy out of prison" as the CIA didn't have the guy in prison to begin with.
The trial was ten years ago, the CIA did agree to him being released.
Its worth reading wiki for the timeline:
A procedural hearing at the Appeal Court took place on 11 October 2007 when prosecution lawyers and Megrahi's defence counsel, Maggie Scott QC, discussed a number of legal issues with a panel of three judges. One of the issues concerned a number of documents that were shown before the trial to the prosecution, but were not disclosed to the defence. The documents are understood to relate to the Mebo MST-13 timer that allegedly detonated the PA103 bomb.[74] Maggie Scott also asked for documents relating to an alleged payment of $2 million made to Maltese merchant, Tony Gauci, for his testimony at the trial, which led to the conviction of Megrahi.

On 15 October 2008, five Scottish judges decided unanimously to reject a submission by the Crown Office which sought to limit the scope of Megrahi's second appeal to the specific grounds of appeal that were identified by the SCCRC in June 2007. In January 2009, it was reported that, although Megrahi's second appeal against conviction was scheduled to begin in April 2009, the hearing could last as long as 12 months because of the complexity of the case and volume of material to be examined. The second appeal began on 28 April 2009, lasted for one month and was adjourned in May 2009. On 7 July 2009, the court reassembled for a procedural hearing and was told that because of the illness of one of the judges, Lord Wheatley, who was recovering from heart surgery, the final two substantive appeal sessions would run from 2 November to 11 December 2009, and 12 January to 26 February 2010. Megrahi's lawyer Maggie Scott expressed dismay at the delays: "There is a very serious danger that my client will die before the case is determined."

On 25 July 2009, Megrahi applied to be released from jail on compassionate grounds. Three weeks later, on 12 August 2009, Megrahi applied to have his second appeal dropped and was reported to have been granted compassionate release on the basis that he had terminal prostate cancer. On 20 August 2009, Megrahi was released from prison and travelled by chartered jet to Libya the same day. His survival beyond the approximate "three month" prognosis generated some controversy. After hospital treatment ended, he returned to his family home. Following his release, Megrahi has published on the Internet evidence that was gathered for the abandoned second appeal which he claims will clear his name.
in precis - He launched an appeal, the judges refused to cover up various CIA shenanigans which would have severely embarrased them - namely they didn't have a case and had bribed 'witnesses' to make one, he agreed to drop his appeal and was released within days.

If you don't find that fishy then I know someone who sells timeshares in Florida, maybe you could give him a call.
It's your logic/argument--not mine--that says they were super-competent evil geniuses and incompetent boobs simultaneously...
I don't remember ever calling the CIA 'super-competent evil geniuses'. It might have happened while drunk, I have no recollection of that.
Fuck Israel
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6650|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Stretch, just to make the conspiracy fit. Syria has the resources to do it themselves. If a terrorist group did it, they would claim it...otherwise, they have no reason to do it.
No, Syria has always been the number one suspect for Lockerbie.
Like Iran, they're happy to take their revenge without fanfare.
According to Megrahi's supporters.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Barely lasted? How long ago was the trial again? And the CIA didn't "let the guy out of prison" as the CIA didn't have the guy in prison to begin with.
The trial was ten years ago, the CIA did agree to him being released.
Its worth reading wiki for the timeline:
A procedural hearing at the Appeal Court took place on 11 October 2007 when prosecution lawyers and Megrahi's defence counsel, Maggie Scott QC, discussed a number of legal issues with a panel of three judges. One of the issues concerned a number of documents that were shown before the trial to the prosecution, but were not disclosed to the defence. The documents are understood to relate to the Mebo MST-13 timer that allegedly detonated the PA103 bomb.[74] Maggie Scott also asked for documents relating to an alleged payment of $2 million made to Maltese merchant, Tony Gauci, for his testimony at the trial, which led to the conviction of Megrahi.

On 15 October 2008, five Scottish judges decided unanimously to reject a submission by the Crown Office which sought to limit the scope of Megrahi's second appeal to the specific grounds of appeal that were identified by the SCCRC in June 2007. In January 2009, it was reported that, although Megrahi's second appeal against conviction was scheduled to begin in April 2009, the hearing could last as long as 12 months because of the complexity of the case and volume of material to be examined. The second appeal began on 28 April 2009, lasted for one month and was adjourned in May 2009. On 7 July 2009, the court reassembled for a procedural hearing and was told that because of the illness of one of the judges, Lord Wheatley, who was recovering from heart surgery, the final two substantive appeal sessions would run from 2 November to 11 December 2009, and 12 January to 26 February 2010. Megrahi's lawyer Maggie Scott expressed dismay at the delays: "There is a very serious danger that my client will die before the case is determined."

On 25 July 2009, Megrahi applied to be released from jail on compassionate grounds. Three weeks later, on 12 August 2009, Megrahi applied to have his second appeal dropped and was reported to have been granted compassionate release on the basis that he had terminal prostate cancer. On 20 August 2009, Megrahi was released from prison and travelled by chartered jet to Libya the same day. His survival beyond the approximate "three month" prognosis generated some controversy. After hospital treatment ended, he returned to his family home. Following his release, Megrahi has published on the Internet evidence that was gathered for the abandoned second appeal which he claims will clear his name.
in precis - He launched an appeal, the judges refused to cover up various CIA shenanigans which would have severely embarrased them - namely they didn't have a case and had bribed 'witnesses' to make one, he agreed to drop his appeal and was released within days.

If you don't find that fishy then I know someone who sells timeshares in Florida, maybe you could give him a call.
Your entire argument hinges on the highlighted portion? Really? And where would the reference to the CIA be again?

Dilbert_X wrote:

It's your logic/argument--not mine--that says they were super-competent evil geniuses and incompetent boobs simultaneously...
I don't remember ever calling the CIA 'super-competent evil geniuses'. It might have happened while drunk, I have no recollection of that.
According to your conspiracies, they're behind everything that's wrong in the world, pulling the strings. Only super-competent evil geniuses could do that and not get caught, time after time--which the CIA hasn't, btw. So, it simple reasoning. Try it some time. You might stop making ludicrous, unfounded claims that are easily countered.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX
There was plenty more than the $2m payment, which was bad enough, Syria were in the frame from day one, before Libya was ever suspected.

FEOS wrote:

According to your conspiracies, they're behind everything that's wrong in the world, pulling the strings.
They are, they just do it very badly and it so often blows up in their, and our, faces.

Vietnam
Bay of Pigs
Funding the Mujahedeen through Pakistan - how did that work out?
9/11 Attacks - derp
Letting Bin Laden escape Afghanistan
Iraqi WMD

Evil yes, geniuses no.

Oh and failing to catch anyone for Lockerbie.
Fuck Israel
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6650|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

There was plenty more than the $2m payment, which was bad enough, Syria were in the frame from day one, before Libya was ever suspected.

FEOS wrote:

According to your conspiracies, they're behind everything that's wrong in the world, pulling the strings.
They are, they just do it very badly and it so often blows up in their, and our, faces.

Vietnam
Bay of Pigs
Funding the Mujahedeen through Pakistan - how did that work out?
9/11 Attacks - derp
Letting Bin Laden escape Afghanistan
Iraqi WMD

Evil yes, geniuses no.

Oh and failing to catch anyone for Lockerbie.
You seem to confuse CIA operations with Presidential national security decision-making. And you also seem to confuse success with failure. And you confuse CIA involvement with non-involvement. And you confuse international intelligence community consensus with CIA string-pulling. I can't really help you. You'll continue to not let facts stand in the way of your tinfoil hat buffoonery, as facts just get in the way of a good conspiracy.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX
Whatever, they're all colossal failures the CIA played a very big, or central, part in.
Fuck Israel
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6650|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

Whatever, they're all colossal failures the CIA played a very big, or central, part in.
But weren't responsible for. Yet you claim they were. And, if you peel the onion back, their role was less than you make it out to be this one.

That's the problem with strawman arguments. They never stand up to scrutiny.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX
What doesn't stand up to scrutiny is the CIA.

Whenever their genius analysis and intel sees the light of day it turns out to be little more than shadows.
Fuck Israel
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6650|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

What doesn't stand up to scrutiny is the CIA.

Whenever their genius analysis and intel sees the light of day it turns out to be little more than shadows.
Wrong. And you've been proven wrong on your "counteranalysis" many times. Care to dance this dance again?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX
No I haven't, you just won't admit it.

Have we won in Afghanistan yet?
Your genius CIA is calling it a "stalemate". Presumably you bow to their superior analysis?

At least we gave them a load of weapons they can't afford to maintain. Thats something I suppose.
Fuck Israel
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6821|SE London

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:


On 18 May 1990, Swire took a fake bomb on board a British Airways from London Heathrow to New York JFK[2] and then on a flight from New York JFK to Boston to show that airline security had not improved; his fake bomb consisted of a radio cassette player and the confectionery marzipan, which was used as a substitute for Semtex. Some American family members asked Swire to keep the news of the stunt quiet for a while; it became public six weeks after Swire did it. Susan and Daniel Cohen, parents of Pan Am Flight 103 victim Theodora Cohen approved of the plan, while some other family members of American victims did not.[3]
Susan Cohen said that in the beginning she admired Swire "a great deal." The Cohens said that both they and Swire felt suspicious about the development in the mainstream account that Libya was solely responsible for the bombing; unlike the Cohens, Swire believed that Libya had no responsibility at all. Daniel Cohen said that he and his wife did not approve of Swire travelling to Tripoli, Libya and placing a photograph of Flora next to the photograph of Hanna, Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi's adopted daughter, who died in a 1986 U.S. bombing. The Cohens said that they thought that Swire "was being foolish and worse" since the Cohens believed that his actions were forming Libyan propaganda and that al-Gaddafi was using Swire to benefit himself. As Swire made more trips to Libya Susan Cohen said that he began to remind her of Lieutenant Colonel Nicholson (Alec Guinness) in the film The Bridge on the River Kwai since the character was, in Susan Cohen's words, "a brave and decent man whose obsession led him to unwittingly serve the enemy cause."[4] 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Swire   this guy doesn't sound like he is playin with a full deck. sorry.
He's just the founder of the group. Surprisingly, this one man is not all of the hundreds of members of the group who take the same position about Megrahi's release.

Anyway, you don't sound like you're "playing with a full deck", sorry.

I stand by my point that this is a case of serving the interests of British citizens rather than appeasing Americans. But you'd be all for appeasement if it was to do something that was in line with your own beliefs, you big hypocrite you....
and  I will stand by my point that this guy appears to have an agenda, outside of any truth he might be seeking.

I guess you have your opinion regarding my sanity, but I am not the one flying to Tripoli and honoring the daughter of the guy that killed my kid, and if you think I am crazier that this nutjob, I can't help it.
You seem to have missed the most important point. Whether this one guy has an agenda or not is not relevant to my point - which is that the families of the British victims (several hundred people, of which this guy is just one) supported the release of Megrahi.

Attacking the credibility of someone is not going to work as an argument for you here. Unless you can undermine the credibility of the majority of the families of the British victims, then my point stands.

How is serving their interests appeasing anyone? The main reason for keeping him detained would've been to appease the Americans.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6650|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

No I haven't, you just won't admit it.

Have we won in Afghanistan yet?
Your genius CIA is calling it a "stalemate". Presumably you bow to their superior analysis?

At least we gave them a load of weapons they can't afford to maintain. Thats something I suppose.
As soon as the facts support you being right, I'll gladly admit it. Hasn't happened yet.

The CIA's assessment is that Afghanistan is "heading towards a stalemate." I mean, only if you want to use the actual "words" or "facts" as some refer to them. That is an entirely different connotation than "being" one. Add in the fact that intelligence assessments are, by their nature, overly conservative, and disagreement from every commander who is there, face to face, day to day, dealing with the situation...and you gain a better understanding of the entire picture. Plus, CIA takes into account far more than just the military situation, which is probably what leads them to their conclusion more than anything, I would guess.

Oh...and OFF TOPIC.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5825

The English also not only worked with Vader and the Emperor they made up the officer Corp.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

Plus, CIA takes into account far more than just the military situation, which is probably what leads them to their conclusion more than anything, I would guess.
The military situation is essentially irrelevant in Afghanistan, I guess that why the military types think they're winning - even when militarily its not going well.
Fuck Israel
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6650|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Plus, CIA takes into account far more than just the military situation, which is probably what leads them to their conclusion more than anything, I would guess.
The military situation is essentially irrelevant in Afghanistan, I guess that why the military types think they're winning - even when militarily its not going well.
It's a counterinsurgency. How exactly is the military situation "essentially irrelevant"? It's intrinsic to the overall situation, ffs.

And how does the CIA's assessment of Afghanistan have anything to do with the OP again?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX
Just comparing the CIAs assessment of Lockerbie and Megrahi with their general competence - which is not high.

And you still think the 'military situation' is the key to dealing with an insurgency?
No surprise its in stalemate then....
Fuck Israel
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|6982|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
Big Al Megrahi's  release was nothing other than a diplomatic middle finger to the U.S. over Bush signing the "The Libyan Claims Resolution Act " back in 08.

Last edited by IG-Calibre (2011-09-09 06:46:30)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6650|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

Just comparing the CIAs assessment of Lockerbie and Megrahi with their general competence - which is not high.

And you still think the 'military situation' is the key to dealing with an insurgency?
No surprise its in stalemate then....
Point to where I said "key." That is a wholly different connotation than "intrinsic". Countering an insurgency is a whole-of-government approach, of which military operations are a part. But it is finished via diplomatic means, by the host government doing for itself.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

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