Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5583

Remember that Tiger Mom thing a few months back? If you don't- a few months back a woman, Amy Chua, published a book called Battle Hymn of a Tiger Mom. An excerpt of the book ended up in the Washington Post and caused a bit of a debate within parenting circles. In the book the author, a female east Asian, basically writes about how parents in the west are too easy on their kids and how east Asian parenting styles are better. A shitstorm ensued.

Out of all the articles that came out of the whole debate I remember reading one from a east Asian man who was critical of not only Chua's parenting style but also the premise she used an Asian parenting style on her kids and that no such thing exist really. The article was linked from CNN so it wasn't from some crank from east bumblefuck. I wish I could find it but I can't.

Anyway in the article the author claims that the idea of an east Asian parenting style is just a result of U.S. immigration policy. His claim was that during the cold war the U.S. started giving away passports to as many scientists and other educated folks from India and east Asia as it could. That parts true. The brain drain thing is pretty well documented. He links this with the Indian and east Asian model minority that occurs in the U.S. by pointing out that we were drawing from an already well off and educated aristocracy who pushed off their expectations and habits on their children. He also explains that in the time between the cold war ending and now our immigration policy makes sure we kept drawing from cream of the Indian and east Asian crop. Considering the population size of Indian and places like China, Japan, Indonesia, Philippines etc. the fact that we only allow 20K people from each country to legally immigrant here means we get only the well off and well connected ones.

The author further goes on to point out that despite Chinese schools being notoriously more difficult than American schools when polled most Chinese parents wanted their school system to be more like ours with a stronger focus on art, music, sports etc. Basically the idea that Indians and East Asians like to create highly educated robots is a myth that started during the Cold War and if we started letting more people from those areas immigrant here those groups would lose their model minority status.

So could anyone confirm or debunk this? His premise makes sense but I would like to hear more from some people who either live or have lived in India and the far East. Sorry for the typos, bad syntax etc. I can't be arsed to proofread a thread that'll get like 2 serious replies.

So yeah.

Last edited by Macbeth (2011-06-25 11:31:44)

m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6669|UK
i agree.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX
Immigrants generally have to work harder than the locals.

If you have an immigration system based on allowing smart and hardworking people in then chances are thats who is going to get in.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6322|New Haven, CT

Macbeth wrote:

Remember that Tiger Mom thing a few months back? If you don't- a few months back a woman, Amy Chua, published a book called Battle Hymn of a Tiger Mom. An excerpt of the book ended up in the Washington Post and caused a bit of a debate within parenting circles. In the book the author, a female east Asian, basically writes about how parents in the west are too easy on their kids and how east Asian parenting styles are better. A shitstorm ensued.

Out of all the articles that came out of the whole debate I remember reading one from a east Asian man who was critical of not only Chua's parenting style but also the premise she used an Asian parenting style on her kids and that no such thing exist really. The article was linked from CNN so it wasn't from some crank from east bumblefuck. I wish I could find it but I can't.

Anyway in the article the author claims that the idea of an east Asian parenting style is just a result of U.S. immigration policy. His claim was that during the cold war the U.S. started giving away passports to as many scientists and other educated folks from India and east Asia as it could. That parts true. The brain drain thing is pretty well documented. He links this with the Indian and east Asian model minority that occurs in the U.S. by pointing out that we were drawing from an already well off and educated aristocracy who pushed off their expectations and habits on their children. He also explains that in the time between the cold war ending and now our immigration policy makes sure we kept drawing from cream of the Indian and east Asian crop. Considering the population size of Indian and places like China, Japan, Indonesia, Philippines etc. the fact that we only allow 20K people from each country to legally immigrant here means we get only the well off and well connected ones.

The author further goes on to point out that despite Chinese schools being notoriously more difficult than American schools when polled most Chinese parents wanted their school system to be more like ours with a stronger focus on art, music, sports etc. Basically the idea that Indians and East Asians like to create highly educated robots is a myth that started during the Cold War and if we started letting more people from those areas immigrant here those groups would lose their model minority status.

So could anyone confirm or debunk this? His premise makes sense but I would like to hear more from some people who either live or have lived in India and the far East. Sorry for the typos, bad syntax etc. I can't be arsed to proofread a thread that'll get like 2 serious replies.

So yeah.
Her daughter went to Harvard so she won in the end.
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6665

Pffft.  The Asian style does exist.  Tiger Mom is closer to the truth.  Asian man is probably just bitter.  Probably failed offsprings.  Yeah, I'm Asian.  Just look at the schools in Japan and Singapore.  I have nephews in Singapore.  They are ranked by students.  Everyone knows who the top and bottom students are.  Suicides for kids not getting into the best schools are still common.  Families will go hungry, parents will work multiple jobs, so that they can send there kids to school.  To most Asians, education holds the greatest chance of moving up the income ladder.

At my kids Kumon, the instructor uses Asians and Indians as key selling points.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6714
Macbeth hasn't ever been to East Asia lol... Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, Korea... hardcore schooling. Kids wake up at 6am, go to school, finish school at 5pm, go to cram schools till 9pm and go home to do homework.

Ilo: Education also brings great "honor" to family as well imo.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5583

nukchebi0 wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Remember that Tiger Mom thing a few months back? If you don't- a few months back a woman, Amy Chua, published a book called Battle Hymn of a Tiger Mom. An excerpt of the book ended up in the Washington Post and caused a bit of a debate within parenting circles. In the book the author, a female east Asian, basically writes about how parents in the west are too easy on their kids and how east Asian parenting styles are better. A shitstorm ensued.

Out of all the articles that came out of the whole debate I remember reading one from a east Asian man who was critical of not only Chua's parenting style but also the premise she used an Asian parenting style on her kids and that no such thing exist really. The article was linked from CNN so it wasn't from some crank from east bumblefuck. I wish I could find it but I can't.

Anyway in the article the author claims that the idea of an east Asian parenting style is just a result of U.S. immigration policy. His claim was that during the cold war the U.S. started giving away passports to as many scientists and other educated folks from India and east Asia as it could. That parts true. The brain drain thing is pretty well documented. He links this with the Indian and east Asian model minority that occurs in the U.S. by pointing out that we were drawing from an already well off and educated aristocracy who pushed off their expectations and habits on their children. He also explains that in the time between the cold war ending and now our immigration policy makes sure we kept drawing from cream of the Indian and east Asian crop. Considering the population size of Indian and places like China, Japan, Indonesia, Philippines etc. the fact that we only allow 20K people from each country to legally immigrant here means we get only the well off and well connected ones.

The author further goes on to point out that despite Chinese schools being notoriously more difficult than American schools when polled most Chinese parents wanted their school system to be more like ours with a stronger focus on art, music, sports etc. Basically the idea that Indians and East Asians like to create highly educated robots is a myth that started during the Cold War and if we started letting more people from those areas immigrant here those groups would lose their model minority status.

So could anyone confirm or debunk this? His premise makes sense but I would like to hear more from some people who either live or have lived in India and the far East. Sorry for the typos, bad syntax etc. I can't be arsed to proofread a thread that'll get like 2 serious replies.

So yeah.
Her daughter went to Harvard so she won in the end.
His argument against her parenting style was along the lines of emotional development. Statistically Asians are to suicide and depression as blacks are to crime and violence. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the OP so- Thank you for your contribution.

Okay interesting life experiences Ilocano and Cybargs, but that doesn't explain Indian achievement. Considering the severe lack of development in India would it be possible that the author is at least right when it comes to India?

Furthermore, from my understanding of China there is a fairly large gap between people living inland and people who live on the coast in terms of life quality, education, etc. The life style you spoke of Ilocano seems like a luxury that a good percentage of Chinese wouldn't have access to.
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5699|College Park, MD

nukchebi0 wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Remember that Tiger Mom thing a few months back? If you don't- a few months back a woman, Amy Chua, published a book called Battle Hymn of a Tiger Mom. An excerpt of the book ended up in the Washington Post and caused a bit of a debate within parenting circles. In the book the author, a female east Asian, basically writes about how parents in the west are too easy on their kids and how east Asian parenting styles are better. A shitstorm ensued.

Out of all the articles that came out of the whole debate I remember reading one from a east Asian man who was critical of not only Chua's parenting style but also the premise she used an Asian parenting style on her kids and that no such thing exist really. The article was linked from CNN so it wasn't from some crank from east bumblefuck. I wish I could find it but I can't.

Anyway in the article the author claims that the idea of an east Asian parenting style is just a result of U.S. immigration policy. His claim was that during the cold war the U.S. started giving away passports to as many scientists and other educated folks from India and east Asia as it could. That parts true. The brain drain thing is pretty well documented. He links this with the Indian and east Asian model minority that occurs in the U.S. by pointing out that we were drawing from an already well off and educated aristocracy who pushed off their expectations and habits on their children. He also explains that in the time between the cold war ending and now our immigration policy makes sure we kept drawing from cream of the Indian and east Asian crop. Considering the population size of Indian and places like China, Japan, Indonesia, Philippines etc. the fact that we only allow 20K people from each country to legally immigrant here means we get only the well off and well connected ones.

The author further goes on to point out that despite Chinese schools being notoriously more difficult than American schools when polled most Chinese parents wanted their school system to be more like ours with a stronger focus on art, music, sports etc. Basically the idea that Indians and East Asians like to create highly educated robots is a myth that started during the Cold War and if we started letting more people from those areas immigrant here those groups would lose their model minority status.

So could anyone confirm or debunk this? His premise makes sense but I would like to hear more from some people who either live or have lived in India and the far East. Sorry for the typos, bad syntax etc. I can't be arsed to proofread a thread that'll get like 2 serious replies.

So yeah.
Her daughter went to Harvard so she won in the end.
Plenty of kids go to Harvard without being deprived of any sort of social and emotional development...
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6714
beth: Urban area china is hardcore studying while in the western country side family put more emphasis for the kids helping the family out but education is still HUGE. It's mostly about opportunity costs for REALLY poor areas due to their financial situation rather than any class cultural thing. If they had the money you can bet your ass India will be exactly the same as East Asia.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6665

Cybargs wrote:

beth: Urban area china is hardcore studying while in the western country side family put more emphasis for the kids helping the family out but education is still HUGE. It's mostly about opportunity costs for REALLY poor areas due to their financial situation rather than any class cultural thing. If they had the money you can bet your ass India will be exactly the same as East Asia.
^ this.

And in rural China and India, and all over East and South Asia.  Family farmers.  Eldest kids (when of adult working age) will work in the city or out of the country in basic blue collar, maid, babysitter, nanny, or hard labor jobs.  Eldest sacrifice and work hard, sending most of their money back home to finance education for their younger siblings. This practice is very prevalent in this region.  The poorest of the poor, just given a pinch of opportunity, will sacrific close to everything so that they can give their children a better future.

Yes, similar beliefs all over the world.  But in Asian cultures, education is often the top priority after survival needs.  In many South of the border countries, rather than channeling the money toward education for their kids, many choose to build bigger homes.  Asians usually think long term, generation after generation, rather than immediate gratification.

Counter point to our welfare state here in the US.  Single teens getting pregnant multiple times, not in hopes of making a better future for their kids, but being supported by the government, not having to work.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6599|132 and Bush

Macbeth wrote:

Remember that Tiger Mom thing a few months back?
No but I remember this http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-a … -mothering
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6665

Here in SoCal, people of Spanish decent are very sport-centric.  Theee sports parents are fanatics beyond belief.  They start of their kids on baseball and soccer as early as kindergarden.  Local parks are packed to the brim with sports activities.   Various leagues all over the place.  Traveling leagues as well.  Just how many of these kids will actually even make it to Minor Leagure, let alone Major League.  Yes, a few do make it big, but the ratios are just abysmal.  These events happen just an hour or so after school.  Little time left after getting home to do homework.  For my kids, it's eat, homework, and Kumon before anything else.  Just imagine if these sports parents put the same effort toward academics.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5356|London, England

Ilocano wrote:

Here in SoCal, people of Spanish decent are very sport-centric.  Theee sports parents are fanatics beyond belief.  They start of their kids on baseball and soccer as early as kindergarden.  Local parks are packed to the brim with sports activities.   Various leagues all over the place.  Traveling leagues as well.  Just how many of these kids will actually even make it to Minor Leagure, let alone Major League.  Yes, a few do make it big, but the ratios are just abysmal.  These events happen just an hour or so after school.  Little time left after getting home to do homework.  For my kids, it's eat, homework, and Kumon before anything else.  Just imagine if these sports parents put the same effort toward academics.
Did you ever think it wasn't all about making it to the big leagues and could quite possibly be fun for the kids? I'll never deny my kids athletics if it's what they want to do. At the expense of school work? No. But millions of kids in this country do a fantastic job juggling between the two every year. You're the parent and can do whatever the hell you want, but has the thought crossed your mind that they might actually benefit from playing little league or soccer or whatever? Creates a more well rounded person with better social skills instead of just another nerdy Asian stereotype.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5257|foggy bottom
wow ilocano i dont think ivce ever seen a more off the mark post from you ever
Tu Stultus Es
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5257|foggy bottom
a small minority of the children i grew up with were involved with sports.  an even smaller fraction of these kids were hispanic.  I was never into sports.  Im hispanic.  I know many hispanics who follow sports even more casually than I.  I think youre way off on your generalizations.  even the families that I knew who involved their children in sports did it for the same reason non hispanic families do it for, to keep their kids from being fat asses at home with too much idle time.

Last edited by eleven bravo (2011-06-29 09:38:31)

Tu Stultus Es
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5356|London, England
I just looked up the Kumon method via wiki and I gotta say, I do like the way that they teach math.

Level K: Functions: Quadratic, fractional, irrational, exponential
Level L: Logarithms, basic limits, derivatives, integrals, and its applications
Level M: Trigonometry, straight lines, equation of circles.
Level N: Loci, limits of functions, sequences, differentiation

Doing derivatives and integrals before teaching trig makes a whole lot of sense. Theory before application instead of the other way around. It's how I would teach my own kids.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5257|foggy bottom
i cant believe you believe what you wrote.
Tu Stultus Es
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6665

My eldest son has played Pony League.  Earned a game ball as well.  Played in his schools basketball team, too. Also taking martial arts.  Athletics are good and fine.  I'm referring to those fanatic parents.  Not weekend activities.  Those that scream at the coaches for what they consider bad calls.  Those parents who center there lifestyle around the leagues.  Adjust their work schedules for the leagues.  They put so much time and effort on these sports.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5356|London, England

Ilocano wrote:

My eldest son has played Pony League.  Earned a game ball as well.  Played in his schools basketball team, too. Also taking martial arts.  Athletics are good and fine.  I'm referring to those fanatic parents.  Not weekend activities.  Those that scream at the coaches for what they consider bad calls.  Those parents who center there lifestyle around the leagues.  Adjust their work schedules for the leagues.  They put so much time and effort on these sports.
Well, yeah, but the way you described it you made it seem as if they were the rule rather than the exception, when it's the other way around. Some parents do get heavily involved, and carried away. I remember reading a story a few years back about a father assaulting his son's hockey coach because he took his kid out of the game or something. Again, those people are the exception.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5257|foggy bottom
ive never been in an hispanic household where that kind of attitude towards sports existed.
Tu Stultus Es
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5356|London, England

eleven bravo wrote:

ive never been in an hispanic household where that kind of attitude towards sports existed.
It's mostly a white person kind of thing in my experience.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6672|Canberra, AUS

Jay wrote:

I just looked up the Kumon method via wiki and I gotta say, I do like the way that they teach math.

Level K: Functions: Quadratic, fractional, irrational, exponential
Level L: Logarithms, basic limits, derivatives, integrals, and its applications
Level M: Trigonometry, straight lines, equation of circles.
Level N: Loci, limits of functions, sequences, differentiation

Doing derivatives and integrals before teaching trig makes a whole lot of sense. Theory before application instead of the other way around. It's how I would teach my own kids.
yeah indeed. the standard maths cirriculum in high schools is ass-over-face backwards.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5257|foggy bottom

Jay wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

ive never been in an hispanic household where that kind of attitude towards sports existed.
It's mostly a white person kind of thing in my experience.
mine too
Tu Stultus Es
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5356|London, England

Spark wrote:

Jay wrote:

I just looked up the Kumon method via wiki and I gotta say, I do like the way that they teach math.

Level K: Functions: Quadratic, fractional, irrational, exponential
Level L: Logarithms, basic limits, derivatives, integrals, and its applications
Level M: Trigonometry, straight lines, equation of circles.
Level N: Loci, limits of functions, sequences, differentiation

Doing derivatives and integrals before teaching trig makes a whole lot of sense. Theory before application instead of the other way around. It's how I would teach my own kids.
yeah indeed. the standard maths cirriculum in high schools is ass-over-face backwards.
"Ok, remember those derivatives we learned in the last section? Now you can apply it with the y=mx+b formula! Just plug in your answer and you've got the slope! See how easy that is kids?"
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Trotskygrad
бля
+354|5997|Vortex Ring State

Jay wrote:

I just looked up the Kumon method via wiki and I gotta say, I do like the way that they teach math.

Level K: Functions: Quadratic, fractional, irrational, exponential
Level L: Logarithms, basic limits, derivatives, integrals, and its applications
Level M: Trigonometry, straight lines, equation of circles.
Level N: Loci, limits of functions, sequences, differentiation

Doing derivatives and integrals before teaching trig makes a whole lot of sense. Theory before application instead of the other way around. It's how I would teach my own kids.
thing is limits are like required to do derivation/integration... imo teaching the limit definition of a derivative/integral is better than teaching derivation/integration before limits.

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