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i don't regard a secret service worker who defects a "traitor" under all circumstances, no. it depends on the state he was working for, and what sort of policies/conditions he was defecting from.

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

i don't regard a secret service worker who defects a "traitor" under all circumstances, no. it depends on the state he was working for, and what sort of policies/conditions he was defecting from.

and you assume that you know about the state, policies, conditions and other crap in litvinenko' case? what about berezovsky - what do you know about his situation?

Cybargs wrote:

shahster: lol so its a-ok killing people you don't like? kinda against the idea of rule of law isn't it?

by russian law both berezovsky and litvinenko were looking at life sentence for what they'd been wanted for, that is if uk released them into russian jurisdiction. but, as i said, i'm totally fine with how it turned out. good riddance.

Cybargs wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

shahster: lol so its a-ok killing people you don't like? kinda against the idea of rule of law isn't it?

by russian law both berezovsky and litvinenko were looking at life sentence for what they'd been wanted for, that is if uk released them into russian jurisdiction. but, as i said, i'm totally fine with how it turned out. good riddance.

so we should let death squads of any country cross borders and hunt down asylum seekers? lolwat.

you are welcome to try to prevent that. if you can. litvinenko, berezovsky (possibly), saddam hussein, muammar gaddafi, and many others couldn't. that's the reality of the world around you, kiddie. scary, isn't it?

Shahter wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

shahster: lol so its a-ok killing people you don't like? kinda against the idea of rule of law isn't it?

by russian law both berezovsky and litvinenko were looking at life sentence for what they'd been wanted for, that is if uk released them into russian jurisdiction. but, as i said, i'm totally fine with how it turned out. good riddance.

but that's what the whole policy of seeking political asylum/refuge is about. if someone runs into trouble with their home government, and the international legality of the case is uncertain, they can be granted a safe-haven on the grounds of political freedom in another country. you can't just send spies and squads of people to kill those who are in ill favour with your state. that's not how being a member of the international community works. britain doesn't send crack-squads of SAS soldiers or MI5 spies to kill ex-journos who have fallen from british favour. piers morgan hasn't been assassinated. america didn't get the CIA to bump off assange when he was hiding in that london embassy. you can't do that, man. it's not exactly 'diplomatic', is it? this is why russia is seen as a backwards ass country, and not because we "think there are bears walking around moscow" (lol wtf). it's because you act like you're still under a fucking tsar, and like acting with the legal impunity and power of a god is okay.

Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-24 08:30:18)

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

shahster: lol so its a-ok killing people you don't like? kinda against the idea of rule of law isn't it?

by russian law both berezovsky and litvinenko were looking at life sentence for what they'd been wanted for, that is if uk released them into russian jurisdiction. but, as i said, i'm totally fine with how it turned out. good riddance.

but that's what the whole policy of seeking political asylum/refuge is about. if someone runs into trouble with their home government, and the international legality of the case is uncertain, they can be granted a safe-haven on the grounds of political freedom in another country. you can't just send spies and squads of people to kill those who are in ill favour with your state. that's not how being a member of the international community works. britain doesn't send crack-squads of SAS soldiers or MI5 spies to kill ex-journos who have fallen from british favour. piers morgan hasn't been assassinated. america didn't get the CIA to bump off assange when he was hiding in that london embassy. you can't do that, man. it's not exactly 'diplomatic', is it? this is why russia is seen as a backwards ass country, and not because we "think there are bears walking around moscow" (lol wtf). it's because you act like you're still under a fucking tsar, and like acting with the legal impunity and power of a god is okay.

well, saddam hussein got "brought to justice" as they called it against both his will and international law, right? muammar gaddafi for bombed to hell without as much as a word about trial or anything like that - how about that? osama bin laden is said to have been assassinated on pakistani territory without their permission and his corpse dumped into the ocean somewhere - what do you say about that? and how exactly are you so sure mi5 or cia don't off people "kgb-style"? because there's nothing in newspapers about it?

stop this already. it's silly. the geenie's been out of the bottle since forever. deal with it.

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

saddam hussein was a dictator.

by international law? does the law even define such a thing? on what grounds have they took, tried and executed him again?

are you comparing dictators with complete legal/military control over a country to civil servants and journalists who disagree with their leadership, and want freedom to criticize or leave it

or to defect and sell the secrets of the state they've been entrusted with to the highest bidder? i repeat my question: what exactly do you know about litvinenko and berezovsky that makes you think them "political dissidents"?

LOL.

lol yourself.

They should have tried Saddam under the ICC in the first place tbh, instead of an iraqi court which is obviously stacked against him.

and lol@ comparing assassinating journalists/business and dictators. people like julian assange need to be assasinated amirite.

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

how do you define 'sell'? these men were oligarchs. everything had a price. ditto with journalists, like that woman who was murdered. of course everything she discloses has been "sold", it's her profession to report things and get paid for it.

yeah, but then there are repercussions for that too, and in case of litvinenko he's been actually signed into that and agreed. and then fled. for that, as it turns out, you get poisoned with polonium sometimes. totally fine by me.

in berezovsky case, of which, judging by your continuous dodging of the question, you know total zilch, it's even more clear. he's a fucking "al capone-style" criminal? ffs. we are talking racketing, assassinations of competition, financial fraud, corrupt politician ties, you name it. it's all there.

assange got "paid" for wikileaks. did the US go and murder him?

you ask me - they should.

and the point with saddam being a dictator is that the situation is completely different. a dictator is not oppressed within his own country. a dictator has the last word. a dictator doesn't want to leave his own country because he fears the intelligence services, or the law/courts, or being assassinated. a dictator is kinda like, you know, the exact figure these other people in question flee from. it's a terrible comparison. was the west right to intervene and kill saddam? that's up for debate. i'd say no. but it's a completely different matter to killing a journalist for publicizing negative parts about a government. totally different principle.

you started talking "international law" here, not me. in the face of that law, saddam and litvinenko stand as exactly the same - people who were killed against that law. yours, mine or my mother-in-law's personal notions of what dictatorship, oppression, journalism and treason are has no bearing on this whatsoever.

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

Shahter wrote:

in berezovsky case, of which, judging by your continuous dodging of the question, you know total zilch, it's even more clear. he's a fucking "al capone-style" criminal? ffs. we are talking racketing, assassinations of competition, financial fraud, corrupt politician ties, you name it. it's all there.

so extradite him. try him in a court. i'm sure if he is clearly a criminal, it will not be hard to get the due legal process to extradite him to a court. why didn't you do that?

you really know nothing about this case, do you? they have been trying to extradite him for fucking years, but uk would not release him into russian jurisdiction, regardless of how much evidence has been thrown at them. why? because that's been the policy since, like, forever. somebody's been stuck on the old cold-war shit for far too long.

Shahter wrote:

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

Shahter wrote:

in berezovsky case, of which, judging by your continuous dodging of the question, you know total zilch, it's even more clear. he's a fucking "al capone-style" criminal? ffs. we are talking racketing, assassinations of competition, financial fraud, corrupt politician ties, you name it. it's all there.

so extradite him. try him in a court. i'm sure if he is clearly a criminal, it will not be hard to get the due legal process to extradite him to a court. why didn't you do that?

you really know nothing about this case, do you? they have been trying to extradite him for fucking years, but uk would not release him into russian jurisdiction, regardless of how much evidence has been thrown at them. why? because that's been the policy since, like, forever. somebody's been stuck on the old cold-war shit for far too long.

Obviously the UK won't hand over a person who seeked POLITICAL ASYLUM back to the state he's escaping from. So I guess it's just ok to murder the dude. So much for rule of law amirite.

Cybargs wrote:

Obviously the UK won't hand over a person who seeked POLITICAL ASYLUM back to the state he's escaping from. So I guess it's just ok to murder the dude. So much for rule of law amirite.

would it be okay to murder al capone if he ran away and got "political asylum" in russia?

Last edited by Shahter (2013-03-24 09:53:20)