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2011-10-17 13:01:59
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6667|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Based on the assumption they would move to Palestine...
So they should be thrown off the land they've lived on for 100 generations?
Point to where words remotely like those were used.

I'll make it easy for you: they weren't.

Dilbert_X wrote:

The Israeli response as stated by Shlomo Ben-Ami, then Israel's Minister of Foreign Relations who participated in the talks, was "we can't accept the demand for a return to the borders of June 1967 as a pre-condition for the negotiation."
Every impartial observer has concluded that should be the basis for negotiations, yet the Israelis rule that out before negotiations have started.
What did the Israelis bring to the table exactly?
Why are you surprised the Palestinians 'walked away'?

How can you say the Israelis didn't equally 'walk away'? I guess they never walked in.
Why should any nation accept indefensible borders as a precondition for negotiations? The first role of a government is to defend its populace, not to put them in a less secure position.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-17 13:04:52
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6667|'Murka

Beduin wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Beduin wrote:

you are contradicting yourself. First you say the PA walked away, then you quote their demands- which are known for decades now.
How am I contradicting myself if the quote says they walked away from the negotiations?

FEOS wrote:

The Palestinians wanted the immediate withdrawal of the Israelis from the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem
Not quite the same as walking away.
Arafat walked out on the negotiations.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-17 15:19:28
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6006|شمال

feos wrote:

Israel is the only side that brought anything to the table. All the PA bought was walking away.
No. Not true.

Last edited by Beduin (2011-10-17 15:19:48)

الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2011-10-17 17:39:09
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6667|'Murka

Beduin wrote:

feos wrote:

Israel is the only side that brought anything to the table. All the PA bought was walking away.
No. Not true.
When you bring something that you know is a non-starter--that you know is a redline for the other side--and you make it a pre-condition for negotiations...then yeah. You're not negotiating in good faith.

That is not a concession. That is provoking the other side, intentionally.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-18 00:15:21
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6362|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

Why should any nation accept indefensible borders as a precondition for negotiations? The first role of a government is to defend its populace, not to put them in a less secure position.
Why should any country be allowed to move its borders into someone elses country so they suit them better?
We didn't let the Germans get away with it, or Saddam in OKS I, why should we let the Israelis do it?
When you bring something that you know is a non-starter--that you know is a redline for the other side--and you make it a pre-condition for negotiations...then yeah. You're not negotiating in good faith.
The Israelis did that too, 'right of return' and 'jerusalem' being red-line issues for the Palestinians, why are you blind to everything they do?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-10-18 00:19:21)

Fuck Israel
2011-10-18 00:18:41
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6006|شمال
provoking...? am I sensing subjectivity here? cause whether its provoking or not, the PA had their list of demands, as always.
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2011-10-18 03:06:14
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6667|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Why should any nation accept indefensible borders as a precondition for negotiations? The first role of a government is to defend its populace, not to put them in a less secure position.
Why should any country be allowed to move its borders into someone elses country so they suit them better?
We didn't let the Germans get away with it, or Saddam in OKS I, why should we let the Israelis do it?
When you attack someone and lose and lose territory in the process, "buffer zones" are the norm. There was one at the border of Iraq and Kuwait until 2003. Those buffer zones are there for a reason, and the OTs serve essentially the same purpose.

What the hell is "OKS I", btw?

Dilbert_X wrote:

When you bring something that you know is a non-starter--that you know is a redline for the other side--and you make it a pre-condition for negotiations...then yeah. You're not negotiating in good faith.
The Israelis did that too, 'right of return' and 'jerusalem' being red-line issues for the Palestinians, why are you blind to everything they do?
And the Israelis had a proposal to deal with both of those that were compromises between their position and the PA positions. The Palestinians could have offered a compromise proposal regarding the 1967 borders, as well. Instead, they just walked off.

I'm not blind. I'm objective. There's a difference. Something you wouldn't even remotely comprehend on this topic.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-18 03:54:41
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6931|Canberra, AUS
[contributing to israel palestine thread]

did anyone else find the first interviewer of gilad shalit (sp) a prize dickhead?

[/contributing]
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2011-10-18 05:03:17
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6362|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

When you attack someone and lose and lose territory in the process, "buffer zones" are the norm. There was one at the border of Iraq and Kuwait until 2003. Those buffer zones are there for a reason, and the OTs serve essentially the same purpose.
The Kuwaiti border wasn't moved 100 miles into Iraq each time Saddam lost a war though was it?
They're a land grab plain and simple.

What the hell is "OKS I", btw?
Operation Kill Saddam I

Dilbert_X wrote:

And the Israelis had a proposal to deal with both of those that were compromises between their position and the PA positions. The Palestinians could have offered a compromise proposal regarding the 1967 borders, as well. Instead, they just walked off.

I'm not blind. I'm objective. There's a difference. Something you wouldn't even remotely comprehend on this topic.
The Israelis didn't have compromises, they had their proposals.
Why should have the Palestinians compromised exactly? They've lost more than half their country to invaders, they have to give up more permanently, and accept settlements, a criss-cross of military controlled Israeli-only roads over what little remains plus Israeli control of their airspace and borders?
It was a shit deal and they would have been mad to have signed it.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-10-18 05:11:05)

Fuck Israel
2011-10-18 07:22:41
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6988|Cambridge, England
They chose war, they lost.

That choice has already been made. Most of the modern world is founded on borders decided by decades of fighting.
2011-10-18 07:26:28
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6006|شمال
tha damn mooslimz.
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2011-10-18 18:07:35
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6667|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

When you attack someone and lose and lose territory in the process, "buffer zones" are the norm. There was one at the border of Iraq and Kuwait until 2003. Those buffer zones are there for a reason, and the OTs serve essentially the same purpose.
The Kuwaiti border wasn't moved 100 miles into Iraq each time Saddam lost a war though was it?
They're a land grab plain and simple.
Pretty sure the OT aren't 100 miles deep, either. Hence why I pointed out "buffer zones."

If you bothered to objectively look at the Israelis' concerns WRT national security and geography, it would make sense. Or at least, it should, anyway...

Dilbert_X wrote:

What the hell is "OKS I", btw?
Operation Kill Saddam I
Oh, you mean Operation Desert Storm? The one where the Coalition purposefully didn't go up to Baghdad to "Kill Saddam"?

Dilbert_X wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

And the Israelis had a proposal to deal with both of those that were compromises between their position and the PA positions. The Palestinians could have offered a compromise proposal regarding the 1967 borders, as well. Instead, they just walked off.

I'm not blind. I'm objective. There's a difference. Something you wouldn't even remotely comprehend on this topic.
The Israelis didn't have compromises, they had their proposals.
Why should have the Palestinians compromised exactly? They've lost more than half their country to invaders, they have to give up more permanently, and accept settlements, a criss-cross of military controlled Israeli-only roads over what little remains plus Israeli control of their airspace and borders?
It was a shit deal and they would have been mad to have signed it.
A compromise is a deal that is a modification of one party's demands and another's. It is what happens when two parties negotiate. It can't happen when one side walks away from the negotiations. As the Pals did.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-18 23:15:13
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6006|شمال
UN chief: Israeli settlement plans must cease

Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary-general, has condemned reports of Israeli plans to build more than 2,600 housing units in illegally occupied East Jerusalem, saying further settlement activity was "unacceptable".


"The secretary-general is deeply concerned at continued efforts to advance planning for new Israeli settlements in occupied East Jerusalem," Ban's press office said in a statement on Friday.

The Peace Now anti-settlement group said on Friday that Israel planned to build the housing units in a new urban settlement in East Jerusalem, angering Palestinians who want a halt to all such projects before they return to Middle East talks.

The group said the settlement plan was approved earlier this week by an Israeli municipal committee, which had given the go-ahead for construction on the site that lies on land seized by Israel in 1967 and occupied ever since.

"The secretary-general reiterates that settlement activity in East Jerusalem and the remainder of the West Bank is contrary to international law," the UN statement said, adding that such activity "must cease"

More: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middl … 26781.html
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2011-10-19 00:18:37
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6362|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

It happen when one side walks away from the negotiations. As the Pals did.
Both sides turned up with fixed issues they weren't prepared to negotiate on, both sides walked away.
Why do you focus blame exclusively on the Palestinians?

As you can see from the tactics they use over settlements, the Israelis are now focused on avoiding even getting to negotiations.
Oh I forgot, onyl the Israelis are allowed 'red-line' issues, not the Palestinians.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-10-19 00:21:46)

Fuck Israel
2011-10-19 01:56:00
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6006|شمال
feos believes that moozlimz are violent because their faith teaches them to be so. he is trying so hard to show that the pa walked away cause they dont wont peace.. and i bet he also would say that it was an excuse to launch another intifada.
typical damn moozlimz
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2011-10-19 03:38:15
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6931|Canberra, AUS
what happened to you beduin? you used to be normal.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2011-10-19 03:39:11
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6006|شمال
Never been m8
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2011-10-19 04:22:40
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6667|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

It happen when one side walks away from the negotiations. As the Pals did.
Both sides turned up with fixed issues they weren't prepared to negotiate on, both sides walked away.
Why do you focus blame exclusively on the Palestinians?
Because "both sides" didn't walk away. Only one did. Guess which one that was?

Hint: it wasn't the Israelis. You do the math on your own.

Dilbert_X wrote:

As you can see from the tactics they use over settlements, the Israelis are now focused on avoiding even getting to negotiations.
Oh I forgot, onyl the Israelis are allowed 'red-line' issues, not the Palestinians.
No, both sides are allowed their "red line" issues. I pointed out how Israel's red line issue could be incorporated into a concession position to be offered by the PA. But they won't budge on anything, either. So it seems the PA is focused on avoiding even getting to negotiations, as well.

Oh, I forgot. Only the Palestinians are allowed "red line" issues...right? Is that how it works?

Negotiations = give the PA everything they ask for as a starting point.

amidoinitrite?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-19 04:24:44
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6667|'Murka

Beduin wrote:

feos believes that moozlimz are violent because their faith teaches them to be so. he is trying so hard to show that the pa walked away cause they dont wont peace.. and i bet he also would say that it was an excuse to launch another intifada.
typical damn moozlimz
Are you on drugs? When have I ever made a statement remotely like that?

Arafat made a huge miscalculation, and his successors continue to do so...as does Israeli leadership. There is room for compromise on both sides, and neither side is willing to do it.

Yeah...I'm a raging fanatic on the issue.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-19 04:34:05
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6972
PA doesn't really have any leverage at all. That's how negotiations work, you need some leverage.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2011-10-19 05:58:29
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6362|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

Because "both sides" didn't walk away. Only one did. Guess which one that was?

Hint: it wasn't the Israelis. You do the math on your own.
They both walked away, it really is that simple.

Negotiations = give the PA everything they ask for as a starting point.

amidoinitrite?
No 'doing it right' means being prepared to negotiate, except on borders, right of return of refugees, ownership of Jerusalem and settlements - thats the Israeli position.
Fuck Israel
2011-10-19 07:56:22
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6667|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Because "both sides" didn't walk away. Only one did. Guess which one that was?

Hint: it wasn't the Israelis. You do the math on your own.
They both walked away, it really is that simple.

Negotiations = give the PA everything they ask for as a starting point.

amidoinitrite?
No 'doing it right' means being prepared to negotiate, except on borders, right of return of refugees, ownership of Jerusalem and settlements - thats the Israeli position.
No, only one party walked away. Arafat. Pretty sure he wasn't Israeli...

So only the Israelis are intransigent in their position now? LMAO.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-20 00:23:25
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6362|eXtreme to the maX
No, the Israelis aren't being intransigent, they're steadily expanding their demands by expanding their settlements.
Adding 'recognition of Israel as a jewish state' is a recent addition to the list of 'red-line' issues.

The Palestinians have been consistent over the years, the Israelis have expanded their demands, and yet you accuse the Palestinians of negotiating in bad faith.
Fuck Israel
2011-10-20 03:56:37
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6667|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

No, the Israelis aren't being intransigent, they're steadily expanding their demands by expanding their settlements.
Adding 'recognition of Israel as a jewish state' is a recent addition to the list of 'red-line' issues.

The Palestinians have been consistent over the years, the Israelis have expanded their demands, and yet you accuse the Palestinians of negotiating in bad faith.
Yes. The Palestinians have been consistent...consistently intransigent.

Israel has modified its list of demands over the years. You're right about that. It's become more amenable to the Palestinian position. Yet the Palestinians still won't budge.

Yep. Those Pals are negotiating in good faith. The epitome of it.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-10-20 03:58:52
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6972

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

No, the Israelis aren't being intransigent, they're steadily expanding their demands by expanding their settlements.
Adding 'recognition of Israel as a jewish state' is a recent addition to the list of 'red-line' issues.

The Palestinians have been consistent over the years, the Israelis have expanded their demands, and yet you accuse the Palestinians of negotiating in bad faith.
Yes. The Palestinians have been consistent...consistently intransigent.

Israel has modified its list of demands over the years. You're right about that. It's become more amenable to the Palestinian position. Yet the Palestinians still won't budge.

Yep. Those Pals are negotiating in good faith. The epitome of it.
Israel should cede all the territory first! Then we negotiate their expulsion from arab lands!
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