BF2S Forums Mauritania and Rape

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Careful Ticia, you might be accused of being manipulated by Western media for making these observations. 

Uzique wrote:

wow turquoise... must you really try so hard to painfully miss the point?

my argument about media influence and virtual balkanization went only so far as to account for your 'increase suspicion' of islam over other world-religions and oppressive social regimes. i'm not saying it's right or that it doesn't happen. i am not denying that there is a clear disparity over gender-relations and equality between the advanced western world and the third-world: all i am saying on the media-point is that your impression of the 'culprits' is DISPROPORTIONATELY shown to be islamic.

now, in considering rape itself and the treatment of women, as ken has already astutely summarized, there are so many historical, political, social and cultural factors that are inextricably tangled up with the matter of and influence of religion in these areas. you cannot simply reduce it down to your convenient, pigeonholed worldview of "islam is a barbaric religion and treats women badly all over the world". that glosses over 99% of the information and facts.

What if we widened the statement to simply...  "A large portion of the non-Western world treats women as 2nd class citizens" ?

Uzique wrote:

it's still a bit of an obtuse and clumsy generalisation that i'm sure would do a disservice to much of the non-western world... but at least it's free of some media-shaped religious bias, yes. issues like gender-equality aren't quite as simple as saying 'the western world has it right, the non-western world are barbarians'- again, it's reductionist. gender-politics in the US is hardly a utopian paradise, and your last 100 years has hardly been a pretty progress through successive stages of domestic and civilized advancement.

it's to do with so many factors that it's almost too much to discuss in one thread. economic, social, historical, political, cultural...

essentially im happy with a statement that doesn't discriminate against one religion more than another

You call it reductionist...  I call it accurate... 

Uzique wrote:

jesus christ it's like a kindergarten

I assume he means this one

you*re not a female, you are a female dog in heat. To me you just seem like a little bitch.

which sorta came out of nowhere. To me threats and swearing looks sophomoric if not infantile. ( see below ) snicker
I notice my " Just Who is in a Herd " rebuttal was not addressed, classic Cameron Poe.

Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2010-12-23 18:22:43)

Turquoise wrote:

Uzique wrote:

yeah, a single statement that you apply to the entire middle-east and occidental world. billions of people. dozens and dozens of countries. hundreds of cultures. thousands of religious denominations, sects, churches, individual belief systems.

"accurate".

now you see why i call you a fucking moron.

Standard of living matters...  not culture.   It's like how science matters, not religion. .

untill the plane catches fire. . .  .

Turquoise wrote:

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Standard of living matters...  not culture.   It's like how science matters, not religion. .

untill the plane catches fire. . .  .

Huh?

thats when almost 100% will find God lol keep going keep going

ever been in a burning plane ?

Ticia wrote:

I think it was Ken some posts back who rightly mentioned the problem with rape in places that follow the Sharia law. When all sex outside of marriage is illegal and women are told to lead a very guarded life, just the simple fact of a woman alone on the street is enough to label her as a prostitute.
See it this way...you know how when a woman in our own societies dresses very provocatively she's seen as she's "asking for it"?
Rape is condemned there as it is here, difference is women here don't accept this kind of bullshit.

I don't think so. Rape is not condemned there at all, sex outside of marriage is. And its always the woman's fault.

There was a time when we were as backwards as they are now, when women were second class citizens. Women couldn't vote, work and rape was very frowned upon, but there really were no laws against it. Not any that actually had a decent punishment, when there was a law rape was often a simple felony or misdemeanor.

But we evolved, and we need to push the rest of the world to evolve too. Culture is not an excuse for oppression, not anymore at least.

Turquoise wrote:

EVieira wrote:

But we evolved, and we need to push the rest of the world to evolve too. Culture is not an excuse for oppression, not anymore at least.

"Evolved"?  Hmmm...  I wonder if Uzique agrees with that assessment. 

It might not be politically correct, but its no secret that some places in the world are more evolved than others. Iran still stones people to death ffs... We abandoned the guilhotine some time ago, after puttng it to some good use in france...

EVieira wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

EVieira wrote:

But we evolved, and we need to push the rest of the world to evolve too. Culture is not an excuse for oppression, not anymore at least.

"Evolved"?  Hmmm...  I wonder if Uzique agrees with that assessment. 

It might not be politically correct, but its no secret that some places in the world are more evolved than others. Iran still stones people to death ffs... We abandoned the guilhotine some time ago, after puttng it to some good use in france...

you need to look up relativism and you also need to understand history a LOT better

the development of culture and society involves a lot more than just taking a snapshot at the current conditions

you also have to understand the myriad of factors behind why certain countries 'developed' more than others (i.e. industrial revolutions bringing increased living standards through economic development, in turn providing a drip-down social benefit and increased rights/intellectual growth). it's nowhere near as simple as saying "these people and their society are less evolved than us". america still state-sanctions hundreds of murders every year... you're more evolved because you have the technology and money to do it in a sanitized environment, and because yours is derived from the bible and not the quran? ok. keep telling yourself that it's still revanchist morality, and it's still murder. whatever helps you sleep better at night, though!

i suggest you all go read at least 'orientalism' by edward said. it'll change the way you look at the non-western world, and will help you to be more aware of how and WHY we look at the rest of the world as we do- historically, sociologically, and psychologically. there's a very complex process of thought behind all of it. go read.

erm ethics, morality and culture are all superstructural parts of societal evolution

i have never denied the 'economic imperative'.

you chat such shit sometimes; the tone of your short, 'profound' statements sounds as if you're pontificating off a small soap box... and the only converted members of the audience are yourself.

Uzique wrote:

EVieira wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

"Evolved"?  Hmmm...  I wonder if Uzique agrees with that assessment. 

It might not be politically correct, but its no secret that some places in the world are more evolved than others. Iran still stones people to death ffs... We abandoned the guilhotine some time ago, after puttng it to some good use in france...

you need to look up relativism and you also need to understand history a LOT better

the development of culture and society involves a lot more than just taking a snapshot at the current conditions

you also have to understand the myriad of factors behind why certain countries 'developed' more than others (i.e. industrial revolutions bringing increased living standards through economic development, in turn providing a drip-down social benefit and increased rights/intellectual growth). it's nowhere near as simple as saying "these people and their society are less evolved than us". america still state-sanctions hundreds of murders every year... you're more evolved because you have the technology and money to do it in a sanitized environment, and because yours is derived from the bible and not the quran? ok. keep telling yourself that it's still revanchist morality, and it's still murder. whatever helps you sleep better at night, though!

i suggest you all go read at least 'orientalism' by edward said. it'll change the way you look at the non-western world, and will help you to be more aware of how and WHY we look at the rest of the world as we do- historically, sociologically, and psychologically. there's a very complex process of thought behind all of it. go read.

I'm not saying " our society is more evolved them yours". And no, this is not an east vs west debate. I'm saying in this facet of evolution called "women's rights" Mauritania and several others places need to evolve as we did. And we should do what we can to push along these nations in this direction. Because there is no justification of laws were women can be violated, raped, and still be thrown in jail if they speak up.

This has nothing to do with west vs east, tech vs stoning, bible vs quoran or the death penalty, don't try to drag this down to this argument. I'm not saying we are better or that we are perfect, but in terms of women's rights we are allot better.

PS: I don't any views on the "non-western world" . I'm not generalizing, you are.

Last edited by EVieira (2010-12-25 15:28:56)