Larssen
Member
+99|1857

uziq wrote:

hold the people that commit the crimes responsible, it's not a complicated concept. annihilating the agrarian poor and the owners of modest hostels and restaurants really seems like a good penitence for institutional white-collar crime.

the whole point rather is that no one learns and no one heeds any attention, because the people cooking the books know they can get away with it.
Yes, but you can also ask yourself how that would've helped. Was it the banks' fault Greek government bonds became worthless? Should the responsible politicians have been jailed? I'd say yes, but that would not have changed the worthlessness of the bonds.

The government being the international representation of Greek society as a whole, its budget derived from taxation and spending in Greek society, action to rectify its financial imprudence would unavoidably impact the average Greek. This isn't shilling, it's the truth. It doesn't reflect negatively on Greek citizens but the failure of their collective government was their burden to shoulder. At least in part.
uziq
Member
+492|3422
shilling is the part where you made out that the left-wing government were solely responsible for the state of greece's finances, or the generations-long culture of official corruption and giving favour (they hadn't even had 20 years of uninterrupted left-wing governance prior to the crash, so your selectivity is all the more blatant). your portrayal of europe as the instrument of fiscal (and thus moral) rectitude, tut-tutting at the corrupt left-wing national government, is a bit of a punt.

Last edited by uziq (2020-03-26 05:49:24)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
It was less than a month ago that the U.S. was experiencing record low unemployment. Now we just had the largest jump in unemployment in history with almost 4 million new claims.

What is really unfortunate about this crisis is that a job's program can't even be put into place because we can't have people close together. The only solution is a UBI at this point unless we commit to losing a portion of our population to the virus like republicans are suggesting.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Larssen
Member
+99|1857

uziq wrote:

shilling is the part where you made out that the left-wing government were solely responsible for the state of greece's finances, or the generations-long culture of official corruption and giving favour (they hadn't even had 20 years of uninterrupted left-wing governance prior to the crash, so your selectivity is all the more blatant). your portrayal of europe as the instrument of fiscal (and thus moral) rectitude, tut-tutting at the corrupt left-wing national government, is a bit of a punt.
I said it started with the greek government committing fraud for over a decade. This has nothing to do with depicting the EU as an epitome of moral and fiscal prudence. It's a point on a government consciously deceiving its closest allies. Which in itself is bad enough, worse yet if it helps plunge an entire union in disarray.

Don't try and imply that I am blind to the faults of the union or the role of bankers in the financial crash because I didn't explicitly mention all possible contributing factors to the crisis. It's a weak attempt to obfuscate the moral low, the criminality, of a deeply troubled government. I ask again, how else should the other countries have responded, knowing the context of the situation they were in? Was it really such a great idea to pump money into that system? Beyond plenty theoretical objections there is no way anyone could've sold that concept in the rest of Europe. A massive budget was already being pumped into buying debt securities, funds that were paid for by the richer north. Sure, we can hold a discussion on solidarity and the changing regional and global concentration of capital and about the inherent unfairness of it all, but the fact of the matter is that we still live in a world of nation-states where few people are willing to bend over for other's interests. Not in the least if that is in the interest of a government that engaged in deceit. Nor was kicking Greece out of the monetary union acceptable (another possible solution), as that would've irreparably damaged the foundations of the Union and the trust countries can place in its institutions. Which, yes, is much more important than one member state's financial fumbling.

Even if we were perfectly capable of assigning blame with certain individuals and institutions and 'bring to justice' the key individuals, it would not have solved the crisis or prevented the greek citizenry from incurring financial blows. But the specific systemic causes of the financial crash and the eurocrisis between 2008-2012 were definitely addressed. That sort of mortgaging and trading is no longer permitted and that specific scenario in the union happening again is now highly unlikely. Yes of course there still definitely are flaws in the system (for which it would be hard to pinpoint specific individuals as guilty) so in the future we'll keep plodding along tumbling from crisis to crisis and dealing with the causes as they are exposed and become unmanageable.

I should add something to that last point - there's a set of 'intellectuals' who seem to be under the false impression that they figured out things noone else has or see things noone else sees, namely that the systems we live under have fundamental flaws and an almost inherent inequality to them and that crises about X, Y or Z issue is inevitable. They then propose 'revolutionary' revisions of capitalism or radical change, or keep to lamenting the supposed unsustainability of it all. The point I'd like to make to that is that the fundamentals of the capitalist system we have today were laid and invented (or sometimes just happened) in the age of colonialism, survived napoleon, survived the age of revolutions, two world wars, the soviet union, and a number of depressions that make our contemporary financial woes seem like lighthearted jokes. Evidently it's extremely resilient and not going anywhere. It certainly won't be impacted by some 21st century professor somewhere yet again regurgitating Marx's eternally decomposing corpse for the millionth time in the last 200 years. There's a naivete to it, but I guess those people have their role to play as well.

Ever so slowly, but surely, we'll deal with crises when we get to them and tipping points are reached. The global poor will have their moment vs the global rich and we'll figure out a way to deal with the next financial crash. It just doesn't happen overnight. People need to read a little more history and learn to be a little patient.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-03-26 10:54:24)

uziq
Member
+492|3422
wow marxist professors have never before realised that capitalism is resilient. i am writing a letter to the TLS right now!

i'm not even left wing, by the by, and far from marxist. i'm just tired of dipshit centrists pretending 'the end of history' is a fact and all we have at our disposal now is meliorism and incrementalism. 'plodding', indeed, with a very small field of possibility. the same people who gloss over the gigantic social changes and movements of the 20th century with comments like 'capitalism survived two world wars'. did it? did the form of 19th century capitalism 'survive' those wars in any really intelligible way? the huge social democratic compacts made after weren't a change to the status quo at all? how comforting it must be to look back over history and just see a gradual smoothening out to your own 'inevitable' centrist politics.

we've found the winning formula now, get onboard, sucker!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUDuZdJWAAM-1VM?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUDhF2mWkAIAmmJ?format=jpg&name=large

/popcorn. i'll be in the 'leftist' section of the library catching up on history.

Last edited by uziq (2020-03-26 12:19:57)

uziq
Member
+492|3422
macron has announced that when the crisis is over, france is going to make a huge investment in its public sector and hospitals. lol.

this after his administration, and his ideology  specifically, strip-mining and downsizing the public sector.

but hey, like larssen says, the neoliberals have it all figured out and everyone else should *checks notes* read a book.

Last edited by uziq (2020-03-27 02:45:33)

Larssen
Member
+99|1857
To that I say: exactly. Under normal circumstances we do only have incrementalism to our disposal. It's a conscious consequence of our civilisations designing their processes for change to be subject to intergovernmentalism and multi-party decision making. Beyond political leadership our bureaucracy and legal systems have also been designed to guide and channel decision-making in certain ways, through legal constraints, formal processes and dissemination of power. We have diluted and spread power throughout our systems to accomodate slow lumbering democracies and consensus decision making and to resist too much concentration of authority. Think of it what you will, there's plenty negatives to highlight, but conversely in the well-run constitutional democracies among us there is and will be no room for either a visionary autocrat or despot. It is only one example, but however terribly wrong the climate change deniers may be, or destructive the oil lobbyists can be, our societal structure demands us to always take into account their positions too. On the other hand the green movement has also been allowed to gain and expand its following over the last two decades. I can't imagine you don't know this to be true - but ultimately it seems to create societies that work and have a certain degree of stability to them unmatched in the rest of the world.

Is it still inadequate? Why yes, especially in situations that demand quick solutions or a gigantic mobilisation of people and resources to tackle singular purposes. It's regrettable but it doesn't seem like we've been able to perfect the balancing act required for this sort of crisis yet. It's true that inevitably we'll be faced with a crisis that will do us in, like the thousands of political systems that perished before ours.

Uziq, you're a critical thinker but to a degree that in my view it seems to cloud your vision. I never see you strongly defend a position or policy path, rather always perched shooting arrows at whatever ideas or concepts enter your field of view. Effectively poking holes in the choices made by politicians is a useful skill, but it would be great if you could expend a similar amount of energy thinking about what else could realistically be done or achieved.

I argue the changes in capitalism we've seen justifies my view quite well. As for Macron, I'll believe it when it happens - we're also now seeing politicians doing what they do, appeasing the public when they need to.

Also, I'm not a centrist. I believe most modern centrists would balk at what I just wrote.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-03-27 14:25:18)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX
As a knee-jerk we'll pour money into hospitals, medical resources, and we'll have a war with China and/or Russia and wish we'd put our money into military technology, or hardening our telecommunications against electronic attack etc.

China and Russia have already started annexing what they want, they'll continue and dare us to stop them, probably in the window between now and the west rebuilding its manufacturing base. They probably have a few corona-viruses ready to go today.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
Trump has actually been pretty good for the economy up until now if you think about it. He cut taxes, increased spending, and then signed bills putting about $4 trillion into the economy. He has spent more federal money in 4 years than Obama did in 8. What an accomplishment.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX
All of it borrowed from the future, well done.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
We are going to default on all of the debt anyway. Future? There is no future.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX
Defaulting on debt will mean war with China.

Its coming anyway though.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
I am not convinced that the U.S. would be the worst off if we default on our debt or request our creditors take a write down. There isn't anywhere in the world to park your money and assets that is actually stable anyway. The E.U. is shrinking and the Chinese seem to have major issues with separatism, respiratory diseases, and an economic system reliant on selling shit to people they just gave Bat Flu to.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3422
the system has been running on bad debt and consensual illusion since about the 70s, if not before the standards were relaxed. it's time to call the whole thing off and adopt fully automated luxury communism. hopefully a nice little window of furloughs and closures can convince the bustling protestant imagination of america that work does not make you free.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
It turns out our most essential workers are also the lowest paid and the people with the least prestigious jobs. A middle class family would be embarrassed of a son who was a garbage man. But that garbage man is definitely contributing more to the upkeep of civilization than any of us at this moment.

I had a World War 2 veteran as a college professor once. A co-worker he had a bad relationship with was applying for a position somewhere else and he asked the professor not to interfere with his plans. The professor agreed to because he had lived through the Great Depression and during those times you did not try to stop anyone from working. I liked that outlook. I think anyone who goes to work and puts in those 40 hours a week shouldn't be shamed for their jobs. The jobs should also pay enough for someone to support themselves and if it doesn't the government should step in and make up the difference. And there is no excuse why someone working 40 hours a week doesn't have health insurance.

Interestingly, a lot of people would call me a socialist or communist for suggesting something like this even though it is a "pro-work" attitude. I'm not suggesting the government just give people money to sit home and do drugs or something.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3422
i mean, there's more than one sort of societal use. those people exist to support the 'higher' forms of activity. a society wouldn't get very far if it only had janitors and garbagemen.

this pandemic is producing some very confused and emotive thinking by people. yes, public sector workers and services workers should be a lot more respected, remunerated better, and given job protections. those things are called unions.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6741|PNW

I think every time someone comments on which jobs are contributing more to civilization than others, it increases the toxicity the person may be trying to reduce by boosting professions like garbage collection.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
I will just come out and openly say my job is bullshit. American kids don't really need to know about the French Revolution and Napoleonic wars and other stuff I waste months teaching them. I would even say my job might be making the world worse off. The only people who care about any of this stuff is just going to abuse it to justify their actions and modern cruelty. The last time I was in school I was talking to another history teacher and I asked her "do we really need to teach history?" Her response was "it teaches life skills". Life skills like what? If we want to teach kids practical life skills, just eliminate my job and use the period for an extra vocational class. I think I could better serve the world by teaching kids how to change a tire or repair a transmission. And I wouldn't have to feel like a wet cat going to work every day dressed up.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3422
that is a truly moronic opinion. change career.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6741|PNW

I look forward to hearing about macbeth's new tranny shop.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
I am working on becoming a cop. And I truly feel that a good portion of the school system is a jobs program/baby sitting. Like we get teachers to just keep these kids out off the streets for a few hours a day instead of really teaching them anything practical or worthwhile.

Why even bother trying to teach these kids about the Protestant Reformation? Do you think introducing these kids to Martin Luther is going to get them off of rap music and World Star Hip Hop?

Do you think this kid learning about Julius Caesar did him any good? Actually this drug addict is a good example of how history education hurts. I mentioned the Opium War before and how Opium was like heroin. A kid asked me how do you spell Opium. And I answered and the kid said thanks and googled Opium. Great job, me. I should have just linked him to Erowid too.

Do you think this girl was at all helped when their teacher explained girls got married and had kids at a younger age back then? I think instead of learning about Operation Overlord we should have stuck her dumb ass in a class and explained how to plan your life and have realistic goals as a woman for 40 minutes a day.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3422
i see you're having an 'accidentally took too much medication' day.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689

uziq wrote:

i see you're having an 'accidentally took too much medication' day.
Why don't you want to help young people?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX
The average person today needs something a bit more engaging than intrigue in the House of the Plantagenets in the 13th century.

Failed academics boring people with their own interests have a lot to answer for.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422
keep constructing straw-men, i guess engineers need something to make in quarantine.

is the 'average' schoolchild told about the plantagenets? i don't think so. most pre-university level history focusses on things like the founding of the church of england and the two world wars. hardly massively irrelevant and far from academic boring people with their recherche interests.

does your average schoolchild need to know trigonometry? cell biology? the geology of volcanoes? how to play badminton?

i mean where does this end? what does a schoolchild 'need' to be taught that they genuinely will use in their humdrum work-a-day existence as HR assistants, supermarket managers, and sparkies?

Last edited by uziq (2020-03-28 16:23:20)

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