BF2S Forums Kidnapped Aid Worker Killed in Rescue Attempt.

Yeah, this is part of why I would never become an aid worker.  Helping the poor is one thing, but I'm not willing to die over it.

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

What scum these people are. What harm did she do, she was there trying to help them.
http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/ai … 3%7C176506

That's the harm she did. If she helped the people, they wouldn't have any reason to turn to the Taliban.

Dilbert_X wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Bunch of delusional, homicidal, sociopathic savages.

That applies to most religions.

uziqe will find you !

Dilbert_X wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Bunch of delusional, homicidal, sociopathic savages.

That applies to most religions.

i dont know any savages

rdx-fx wrote:

Bunch of delusional, homicidal, sociopathic savages.

Dilbert_X wrote:

That applies to most religions.

To varying degrees, delusional yes. 
Homicidal and sociopathic, not quite so much.  The Wahabiists, Taliban, and other Sunni extremist sects take homicidal and sociopathic to such an extreme, it makes any other excess by a modern religion look like 'having a case of the Mondays'.
I've not heard of any Lutherans beheading Atheists on CNN lately.



Spoiler (highlight to read):

Baseball Announcer voice: "Aaaaand, there's the pitch, ladies and gentleman!  Lets see what our batter does with it! Straight pitch down the center of the plate..  looks like it's ...  yeah..  looks like it'll get returned right down the center of the field, right through the Israeli observer box..

rdx-fx wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Bunch of delusional, homicidal, sociopathic savages.

Dilbert_X wrote:

That applies to most religions.

To varying degrees, delusional yes. 
Homicidal and sociopathic, not quite so much.  The Wahabiists, Taliban, and other Sunni extremist sects take homicidal and sociopathic to such an extreme, it makes any other excess by a modern religion look like 'having a case of the Mondays'.
I've not heard of any Lutherans beheading Atheists on CNN lately.



Spoiler (highlight to read):

Baseball Announcer voice: "Aaaaand, there's the pitch, ladies and gentleman!  Lets see what our batter does with it! Straight pitch down the center of the plate..  looks like it's ...  yeah..  looks like it'll get returned right down the center of the field, right through the Israeli observer box..

They are not really sociopaths.

I hate how whenever someone does something that someone doesn't agree with, or does something that is pretty self interested, or does something that takes a little bit more of a 'hardened' person to do how everyone labels them a sociopath.

Throwing around the label of sociopath really really really degrades the meaning of the word. They don't have empathy, they don't care about anything but themselves, they are smarter than most people, and they know how to make it not show. A religious moron killing someone over an ideal or belief is not anywhere near a sociopaths MO.

11 Bravo wrote:

good lord

Actually have anything to add?

Since you are one of the people who likes to throw around the sociopath label a lot I thought you could at least back it up.

good lord

Macbeth wrote:

Throwing around the label of sociopath really really really degrades the meaning of the word. They don't have empathy, they don't care about anything but themselves, they are smarter than most people, and they know how to make it not show. A religious moron killing someone over an ideal or belief is not anywhere near a sociopaths MO.

Sociopaths "smarter than most people?"  Please, tell us where you discovered this!  It is certainly not in the mainline definition.

rdx-fx wrote:

Bunch of delusional, homicidal, sociopathic savages.

Superior Mind wrote:

Are you from 1860 or something? Savages, really?

Let's look at the definition of savage, shall we?
(Keep in mind that my original comment is directed at the Taliban, and those who intentionally kidnapped and killed a peaceful female aid worker)

Savage - /ˈsævɪdʒ/
–adjective
1. fierce, ferocious, or cruel; untamed: savage beasts. 2. uncivilized; barbarous: savage tribes. 3. enraged or furiously angry, as a person.
4. unpolished; rude: savage manners. 5. wild or rugged, as country or scenery: savage wilderness. 6. Archaic . uncultivated; growing wild.
–noun
7. an uncivilized human being. 8. a fierce, brutal, or cruel person. 9. a rude, boorish person. 10. a member of a preliterate society.

so, by the numbers: yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.  Ten for ten.

Macbeth wrote:

They are not really sociopaths.

I hate how whenever someone does something that someone doesn't agree with, or does something that is pretty self interested, or does something that takes a little bit more of a 'hardened' person to do how everyone labels them a sociopath.

Throwing around the label of sociopath really really really degrades the meaning of the word. They don't have empathy, they don't care about anything but themselves, they are smarter than most people, and they know how to make it not show. A religious moron killing someone over an ideal or belief is not anywhere near a sociopaths MO.

Again, by the numbers,

• Manipulative and Conning      They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims. As previosly observed, the aid worker was harming the Taliban by trying to help the civilians, this lessening Taliban control over them
• Grandiose Sense of Self      Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Because only they understand the will of Allah, they have the right to do whatever they will.  They're the superspecial people, donchaknow.  They're the Righteous, and everyone else exists only at their mercy and whim.
• Pathological Lying      Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests. Al-Taqiyya or Hudaibiya sound familiar?
• Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt      A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way. Again, because only they understand the will of Allah, they have the right to do whatever they will
• Shallow Emotions      When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises. "outraged by insignificant matters", i.e. death threats over cartoons
• Need for Stimulation      Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common. "Living on the edge" - work? no.  Peacefully convert people to Islam? no. Jihhad!? oh hell yeah! Pass the suicide bomber vests! "Verbal outbursts and physical punishment" - 'Death to Amerika!  Acid in the face for sitting with a non-family male on the bus!
• Callousness/Lack of Empathy      Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. Suicide bombers into packed civilian targets much?
• Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature      Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others. See above.  the more violent, more brutal - the better.  Rape, honor killings, suicide bombers, beheadings, etc
• Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency      Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc. 'Educashun?  we don't need no stinkin' educashun!  Madrassas teaching violent Islam, and memorizing parts of the Koran is all the edukashun we need!'
• Irresponsibility/Unreliability      Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.'it's.. it's.. Amerika's fault!  Blame the infidel! Blame the West! We have no economic infrastructure - not because the princes and royalty squander all the wealth, not because we have no educational system other than the hate-factory madrassas, not because we solve all problems with violence rather than discourse and law.. no, it's not our fault!
• Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity      Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts. Permissible to use another male's ass (preferably young boy) as a cum dumpster when no women are around, permissible to marry a nine year old female, permissible to rape your enemies... etc
• Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle      Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively. 'Work? oh, fuck no! That's what women are for! Jihad! Jihad! derka derka..  The Future?  well, we've been in the stone age for the last 1400 years - but if we kill a few more Infidels, inshalla, Allah will magically make this shithole litter box into a paradise!'Oh, and Inshalla (if god wills it, it will happen. regardless of whether we lift a finger or not.)  is not a life-plan

So, there you go.  You want a case study of a real life society run by sociopaths, take a look at Taliban Afghanistan.  Or Saddam (and his sons, and his Ba'athist party) running Iraq.

  wrote:

And the delusional bit, just for the sake of completeness;
de·lu·sion  - A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness

Violently, aggressively inflicting their belief system? A fictional father figure diety? Selective interpretation of the Koran? Sounds like a textbook pile of delusion to me.

Note the distinction between classical Islam, where it was an honorable profession to be a learned expert in the Koran, and spend your life debating the logic and philosophy of the Koran with other learned individuals, then pass these learned interpretations on to the 'secular' population.  No such job title in the Taliban - you follow one interpretation, you do not ask questions, you do not rationally debate a topic, you do not learn to read, or you will be harshly punished, mutilated, or killed.

There seem to be two sides to Islam:

• Violent Jihadi Islam (Taliban, Wahabbiists, Al Quaeda, and later life Muhammed)
  
• Peaceful, harmonious, educated Islam (early Muhammed, middle period Islam that build beautiful buildings, inspired 'Al-Gebra', and advanced science while the west was in the grips of the Dark Ages).

Last edited by rdx-fx (2010-10-10 13:44:33)

I despise playing quote games but anyway  Part 1 of 2

* Manipulative and Conning
            They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
      As previosly observed, the aid worker was harming the Taliban by trying to help the civilians, this lessening Taliban control over them

The Taliban's control over the civilians isn't manipulation or conning at all. They are a semi religious group which were power and controlled an area before the U.S. arrived. They were considered largely legitimate and their actions had the sanction of a lot of people in the country.

She was an aid worker who was on-Muslim and non-afghan who was operating in a country which is filled with Muslims who didn't want to see her or her type there. The Taliban has an objective: the U.S. out and them in. They would view her as an apparatus of the U.S.

It's not manipulation or conning at all.

Grandiose Sense of Self
      Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."
Because only they understand the will of Allah, they have the right to do whatever they will.  They're the superspecial people, donchaknow.  They're the Righteous, and everyone else exists only at their mercy and whim.

They are religious people. The vast majority of religious people find justification for their actions through religion.

As for the 'their right' part: Sociopaths feel it's their right not because of a God, law, etc. but simply because it's them. They wouldn't need religion to justify their actions to themselves nor would they actually fight for anything beyond their own personal.

RE: the highlighted part. That's typical human nature and a common act idea of every religious group to some extent.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
      Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.
See above.  the more violent, more brutal - the better.  Rape, honor killings, suicide bombers, beheadings, etc

Their sometimes sophisticated attacks on the U.S./NATO show that they are not all impulsive jackassess.

Aside from that it's war. Wars are brutal like that. They are fighting a war in their homeland, if it was a war in our homeland we would be doing as bad. They see it as a fight for survival. When survival becomes the objective then any act in defense of survival is legitimate.

As for the honor killings: cultural act practiced everywhere in the world at one point or another.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
      Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.
'Educashun?  we don't need no stinkin' educashun!  Madrassas teaching violent Islam, and memorizing parts of the Koran is all the edukashun we need!'

Seriously? You really twisted the meaning of that point. Reread the point a few times and tell me how it fits with people not wanting any sort of formal Western style of education and instead preferring their religious education which has been the area norm for a very long time.

rdx-fx wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Throwing around the label of sociopath really really really degrades the meaning of the word. They don't have empathy, they don't care about anything but themselves, they are smarter than most people, and they know how to make it not show. A religious moron killing someone over an ideal or belief is not anywhere near a sociopaths MO.

RAIMIUS wrote:

Sociopaths "smarter than most people?"  Please, tell us where you discovered this!  It is certainly not in the mainline definition.

11 Bravo wrote:

cuz he is one and thinks he is smart

Sociopaths think they're smarter, more morally/ethically advanced, and generally the Nietzschean Übermensch (Overman).
Read Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment for a fictionalized case study.

(Note: you can generally borrow a copy of Nietzsche's works, and Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment from your local neighborhood highly educated budding sociopath.  He may also have a copy of Hitler's Mein Kampf available, for an insight into the mind of the world's most famous sociopath.  If these are the only long, complex (non graphic-novel) books you own, then you may be the neighborhood sociopath. 

Just remember to return them in a timely manner - the penalty for overdue books is usually something to do with your sister's cat being set on fire...)

A. I'm not a socipath.
B. I don't think I'm smarter than most people. I've said before how average I am and how i think most people have over inflated egos.
C. I've read Will to Power and Thus Spoke Zarathustra, I somehow doubt you've ever even flipped through a Nietzsche book.

Amor fati

Amor fati is a Latin phrase coined by Nietzsche loosely translating to "love of fate" or "love of one's fate". It is used to describe an attitude in which one sees everything that happens in one's life, including suffering  and loss, as good. Moreover, it is characterized by an acceptance of the events or situations that occur in one's life.

The phrase is used repeatedly in Nietzsche's writings and is representative of the general outlook on life he articulates in section 276 of The Gay Science, which reads,

    I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer.

Such sociopathy :rollseyes: most people (people like you) completely miss the point of Nieztche and get hung up on the Uberman thing and totally ignore the better and more important parts like his critique of Christianity and his concept of Master-Slave morality and the idea of Christianity as resentment.