Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5354|London, England
A New Jersey family court judge's decision not to grant a restraining order to a woman who was sexually abused by her Moroccan husband and forced repeatedly to have sex with him is sounding the alarm for advocates of laws designed to ban Shariah in America.

Judge Joseph Charles, in denying the restraining order to the woman after her divorce, ruled that her ex-husband felt he had behaved according to his Muslim beliefs -- and that he did not have "criminal desire to or intent to sexually assault" his wife.

According to the court record, the man's wife -- a Moroccan woman who had recently immigrated to the U.S. at the time of the attacks -- alleged:

"Defendant forced plaintiff to have sex with him while she cried. Plaintiff testified that defendant always told her "this is according to our religion. You are my wife, I c[an] do anything to you. The woman, she should submit and do anything I ask her to do."

In considering the woman's plea for a restraining order after the couple divorced, Charles ruled in June 2009 that a preponderance of the evidence showed the defendant had harassed and assaulted her, but "The court believes that [defendant] was operating under his belief that it is, as the husband, his desire to have sex when and whether he wanted to, was something that was consistent with his practices and it was something that was not prohibited."

Charles' ruling was overturned last month by New Jersey's Appellate Court, which ruled that the husband's religious beliefs were irrelevant and that the judge, in taking them into consideration, "was mistaken."

The woman's lawyer, Jennifer Donnelly of New Jersey Legal Services, told FoxNews.com that Charles' ruling should add to the case for a proposed Oklahoma law, which will be on the ballot in November, which would ban judges from considering "international law or Shariah Law" in their rulings.

"Those who don't want the bill to pass say, 'there's really no need for it because why would a judge walk down that road of religion?'" Donnelly said.

"Clearly here, this judge did walk down that road. He may not have said 'Shariah law.' But I think it's indicative that, in trying to be respectful of religion, judges venture into a very slippery slope."

Donnelly said she was surprised when Charles refused to issue a restraining order, adding that the only tipoffs that it might happen were questions he put to the husband's imam when he testified in the case.

The Appeals Court ruling notes, "The imam testified regarding Islamic law as it relates to sexual behavior. The imam confirmed that a wife must comply with her husband's sexual demands, because the husband is prohibited from obtaining sexual satisfaction elsewhere.

"However, a husband was forbidden to approach his wife 'like any animal.' ... he acknowledged that New Jersey law considered coerced sex between married people to be rape."

Charles, a former New Jersey state senator, declined to comment on his ruling. The husband, who represented himself in court, remains unnamed, as does his ex-wife.

While the judge in the case did not specifically mention Islamic or Shariah law, Robert Spencer, director of JihadWatch.com, said he might as well have.

"This is a ruling that is strictly in line with Islamic law, which does indeed declare that a wife may not refuse her husband sex under virtually any circumstances," Spencer said. "The only legal framework that would not consider marital rape to be sexual assault is Shariah."

But Ibrahim Hooper, national communications director for the Council for American Islamic Relations, said claims about Shariah law in the U.S. play into irrational fears about Muslims.

"It fits into the whole extremist Muslim-basher theme that Muslims are somehow trying to replace the Constitution with Islamic law," he said.

"That is absolute fantasy, and hateful. Islamic beliefs don't permit rape of any kind," he said, speaking of the New Jersey case.

Asked whether the imam's testimony contradicted that, Hooper replied, "It's just clear that a Muslim husband shouldn't do anything of this sort to his wife. It's just common sense. You don't need a religious figure to tell you that's wrong."

First Amendment expert Eugene Volokh, a professor at UCLA, said, "The Shariah law debate is a total distraction," and he noted that in the U.S., two people may sign a contract and give an Islamic court the power to determine if the contract is breached. In a 2003 case, for instance, a Texas district court ruled that the private "Texas Islamic Court" should decide the amount a husband owed his wife in a divorce proceeding -- because when they got married, they had signed a contract specifying that was what they wanted.

But assault is illegal, regardless of any contract, Volokh said, and the Appellate Court in New Jersey ruled correctly.

"The claimed religious practice of non-consensual sex involved in this case is so heinous that almost everybody thinks that you shouldn't have the right to do that, no matter what your religious beliefs are."

The husband in the case has been indicted on criminal charges and is expected to face trial in the fall.

Donnelly said that, as far as she knew, her client had not had trouble with her ex-husband since they divorced. She added that she hoped the Appeals Court ruling for her client would set a precedent.

"This ruling will really help people coming behind her," she said.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/05/ad … es-ruling/

Now, I'm all about freedom of expression, and I'll never argue that someone else shouldn't believe in god or a certain religion (though I do poke them on occasion ). That said, Shariah Law is entirely incompatible with Western ideals. Now, this isn't because I dislike Muslims or the Islamic faith or any other such nonsense. The difference is that where we've come to believe in freedom of religion, we've also coupled that with freedom from religion, especially in our justice system. I can't speak for all countries, obviously, but here in America there is a very distinct break between our government and our religion. While there is some creep, it's rather modest and for the most part Separation of Church and State prevails. Shariah Law is incompatible simply because it is a religious set of laws. Our tolerance for others religions should not extend to allowing their religious beliefs to trump civil law. This woman, by every definition in our justice system, was repeatedly raped by her husband, and then to top it off, was denied protection by this asshat judge. This is simply tolerance gone way too far.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5354|London, England
And lowing, don't take this wrong, but keep the stubbornness to a dull roar. I actually want to be able to read the thread after tonight. Thanks in advance
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5354|London, England
No thoughts? Is everyone sleeping?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,755|6689
It's a rough world, especially for the home girls.
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5255|foggy bottom
not even about fox news yet
Tu Stultus Es
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6768|PNW

From the court record:

As a final matter, we find that the judge failed to give
sufficient measured consideration to the imminence of the birth
of the couple's child — an event that the judge acknowledged
would bring the two into contact and almost inevitably be a
source of conflict. In this regard, we note that defendant's
previous misconduct consisted not only of sexual acts that were
unlikely to be repeated given the couple's estrangement, but
also acts of assault and harassment that were more likely to be
repeated in the future.

Viewing the evidence as a whole, we are satisfied that the
judge was mistaken in determining not to issue a final
restraining order in this matter in order to protect plaintiff
from future abuse and in dismissing plaintiff's domestic
violence complaint. We therefore reverse and remand the case
for entry of such an order.
I wonder why other news sites haven't picked up on it for the women's rights issue? So far, I'm only finding it on Fox and a bunch of right-wing wacko sites that probably copy-pasted straight from it.
13rin
Member
+977|6475
No means no.

*edit: he raped her.

Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2010-08-05 19:17:13)

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6647|USA

JohnG@lt wrote:

And lowing, don't take this wrong, but keep the stubbornness to a dull roar. I actually want to be able to read the thread after tonight. Thanks in advance
What stubborness? I have been saying this for quite some time now.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6647|USA

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

From the court record:

As a final matter, we find that the judge failed to give
sufficient measured consideration to the imminence of the birth
of the couple's child — an event that the judge acknowledged
would bring the two into contact and almost inevitably be a
source of conflict. In this regard, we note that defendant's
previous misconduct consisted not only of sexual acts that were
unlikely to be repeated given the couple's estrangement, but
also acts of assault and harassment that were more likely to be
repeated in the future.

Viewing the evidence as a whole, we are satisfied that the
judge was mistaken in determining not to issue a final
restraining order in this matter in order to protect plaintiff
from future abuse and in dismissing plaintiff's domestic
violence complaint. We therefore reverse and remand the case
for entry of such an order.
I wonder why other news sites haven't picked up on it for the women's rights issue? So far, I'm only finding it on Fox and a bunch of right-wing wacko sites that probably copy-pasted straight from it.
So what is the point? None of it is true?
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6768|PNW

Huh?

1) Did you read the court record, or even that excerpt?
2) I was only wondering why only Fox and far-right news sites were talking about it if it's a women's rights issue.
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|6712

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Huh?

1) Did you read the court record, or even that excerpt?
2) I was only wondering why only Fox and far-right news sites were talking about it if it's a women's rights issue.
It's Fox News only because the other news organizations don't want to offend anyone...
especially guys that rape their wives because their religion says it is their right.
Love is the answer
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6768|PNW

Offending Muslims or not, it's still a women's rights issue. Shouldn't it be loonies like Phyllis Schlafly who are supporting this guy while the liberal media champions the victim, here?
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6768|PNW

lol:

At one point, Schlafly also contended that married women cannot be sexually assaulted by their husbands.

"By getting married, the woman has consented to sex, and I don't think you can call it rape," she said.
http://web.archive.org/web/200806111351 … _at_Bates/
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6806|Nårvei

And lowing claims we have a appeasement problem in Europe
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|5746|شمال
Nothing in Sharia that says a man can force/rape his wife to have sex. Nothing.
Go look and post here if you can find anything...

who is the Imam anyway?
-""However, a husband was forbidden to approach his wife 'like any animal."

Last edited by Beduin (2010-08-06 05:10:41)

الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6647|USA

Varegg wrote:

And lowing claims we have a appeasement problem in Europe
actually I have claimed we have an appeasement problem all over the world regarding Islam.
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|5746|شمال
ahhahha Robert Spencer
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6401|North Carolina

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

From the court record:

As a final matter, we find that the judge failed to give
sufficient measured consideration to the imminence of the birth
of the couple's child — an event that the judge acknowledged
would bring the two into contact and almost inevitably be a
source of conflict. In this regard, we note that defendant's
previous misconduct consisted not only of sexual acts that were
unlikely to be repeated given the couple's estrangement, but
also acts of assault and harassment that were more likely to be
repeated in the future.

Viewing the evidence as a whole, we are satisfied that the
judge was mistaken in determining not to issue a final
restraining order in this matter in order to protect plaintiff
from future abuse and in dismissing plaintiff's domestic
violence complaint. We therefore reverse and remand the case
for entry of such an order.
I wonder why other news sites haven't picked up on it for the women's rights issue? So far, I'm only finding it on Fox and a bunch of right-wing wacko sites that probably copy-pasted straight from it.
Well, this is gonna sound weird coming from me, but one of the legitimate complaints right wingers have against the mainstream media is that they tend to be liberal regarding multiculturalism -- even when it goes against Western perceptions of civil rights.

While some right wing sources unfairly target Islam, plenty of mainstream sources overlook the various problems of Islam in order to avoid offending Muslim audiences and misguided liberals.

In short, true advocates of civil rights don't balk at recognizing how disgusting Sharia Law really is -- like the treatment of apostasy.

As John said, Sharia Law is incompatible with Western society and should be dealt with as such.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5354|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

From the court record:

As a final matter, we find that the judge failed to give
sufficient measured consideration to the imminence of the birth
of the couple's child — an event that the judge acknowledged
would bring the two into contact and almost inevitably be a
source of conflict. In this regard, we note that defendant's
previous misconduct consisted not only of sexual acts that were
unlikely to be repeated given the couple's estrangement, but
also acts of assault and harassment that were more likely to be
repeated in the future.

Viewing the evidence as a whole, we are satisfied that the
judge was mistaken in determining not to issue a final
restraining order in this matter in order to protect plaintiff
from future abuse and in dismissing plaintiff's domestic
violence complaint. We therefore reverse and remand the case
for entry of such an order.
I wonder why other news sites haven't picked up on it for the women's rights issue? So far, I'm only finding it on Fox and a bunch of right-wing wacko sites that probably copy-pasted straight from it.
Well, this is gonna sound weird coming from me, but one of the legitimate complaints right wingers have against the mainstream media is that they tend to be liberal regarding multiculturalism -- even when it goes against Western perceptions of civil rights.

While some right wing sources unfairly target Islam, plenty of mainstream sources overlook the various problems of Islam in order to avoid offending Muslim audiences and misguided liberals.

In short, true advocates of civil rights don't balk at recognizing how disgusting Sharia Law really is -- like the treatment of apostasy.

As John said, Sharia Law is incompatible with Western society and should be dealt with as such.
Islam is not being 'picked on' either. We jail practitioners of Voodoo when they sacrifice animals under animal cruelty laws, we prosecute Christians that blow up abortion clinics and we would prosecute anyone who decided to bring back the ancient Aztec practice of ripping the still beating heart out of its victims. Religious law should never trump civil law.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dr.PhiL
Danmark
+30|6665|Up North

Varegg wrote:

And lowing claims we have a appeasement problem in Europe
And you are saying we dont?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6647|USA

Dr.PhiL wrote:

Varegg wrote:

And lowing claims we have a appeasement problem in Europe
And you are saying we dont?
yes, he is saying you don't.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6401|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

From the court record:


I wonder why other news sites haven't picked up on it for the women's rights issue? So far, I'm only finding it on Fox and a bunch of right-wing wacko sites that probably copy-pasted straight from it.
Well, this is gonna sound weird coming from me, but one of the legitimate complaints right wingers have against the mainstream media is that they tend to be liberal regarding multiculturalism -- even when it goes against Western perceptions of civil rights.

While some right wing sources unfairly target Islam, plenty of mainstream sources overlook the various problems of Islam in order to avoid offending Muslim audiences and misguided liberals.

In short, true advocates of civil rights don't balk at recognizing how disgusting Sharia Law really is -- like the treatment of apostasy.

As John said, Sharia Law is incompatible with Western society and should be dealt with as such.
Islam is not being 'picked on' either. We jail practitioners of Voodoo when they sacrifice animals under animal cruelty laws, we prosecute Christians that blow up abortion clinics and we would prosecute anyone who decided to bring back the ancient Aztec practice of ripping the still beating heart out of its victims. Religious law should never trump civil law.
Absolutely.  My remark about targeting Islam refers more to the biases right wing sites sometimes have against Islam but don't subject other religions too.

I think the most balanced and objective sources will scrutinize any religion when it is applicable.  There should be no politically correct restrictions on scrutiny towards religious practices that contradict what secular law deems as inappropriate or illegal.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-08-06 08:01:40)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|6647|USA

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Well, this is gonna sound weird coming from me, but one of the legitimate complaints right wingers have against the mainstream media is that they tend to be liberal regarding multiculturalism -- even when it goes against Western perceptions of civil rights.

While some right wing sources unfairly target Islam, plenty of mainstream sources overlook the various problems of Islam in order to avoid offending Muslim audiences and misguided liberals.

In short, true advocates of civil rights don't balk at recognizing how disgusting Sharia Law really is -- like the treatment of apostasy.

As John said, Sharia Law is incompatible with Western society and should be dealt with as such.
Islam is not being 'picked on' either. We jail practitioners of Voodoo when they sacrifice animals under animal cruelty laws, we prosecute Christians that blow up abortion clinics and we would prosecute anyone who decided to bring back the ancient Aztec practice of ripping the still beating heart out of its victims. Religious law should never trump civil law.
Absolutely.  My remark about targeting Islam refers more to the biases right wing sites sometimes have against Islam but don't subject other religions too.

I think the most balanced and objective sources will scrutinize any religion when it is applicable.  There should be no politically correct restrictions on scrutiny towards religious practices that contradict what secular law deems as inappropriate or illegal.
I am sure those "right wing" sources will bias against the other religions when the violence and intolerance from them balance themselves to that of Islam. Or do you think when Christans start flying airplanes into buildings, blowing up markets, and killing women and children and men who vote, those "right wing" biased sources will dismiss it and not report it?

Last edited by lowing (2010-08-06 09:41:58)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6401|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Islam is not being 'picked on' either. We jail practitioners of Voodoo when they sacrifice animals under animal cruelty laws, we prosecute Christians that blow up abortion clinics and we would prosecute anyone who decided to bring back the ancient Aztec practice of ripping the still beating heart out of its victims. Religious law should never trump civil law.
Absolutely.  My remark about targeting Islam refers more to the biases right wing sites sometimes have against Islam but don't subject other religions too.

I think the most balanced and objective sources will scrutinize any religion when it is applicable.  There should be no politically correct restrictions on scrutiny towards religious practices that contradict what secular law deems as inappropriate or illegal.
I am sure those "right wing" sources will bias against the other religions when the violence and intolerance from them balance themselves to that of Islam. Or do you think when Christans start flying airplanes into buildings, blowing up markets, and killing women and children and men who vote, those "right wing" biased sources will dismiss it and not report it?
Well, I'll put it this way....  Every society has its own biases regarding religion.  Because Christianity is more familiar to us, we're more inclined to accept its faults and extremists than those of Islam.  While I would agree that Islam's extremism stands out as more violent here and in many other places than that of Christianity, there are certain views among the right wing that are part of the same problem as fundamentalist Islam is.

For example, most of us in America recognize how bad a theocratic government like Iran's is.  Islamism has shown itself to be a very oppressive force in the world.  Yet, many Christians here seem to forget this lesson in the importance of separation of church and state when conservative politicians express their desire to put more religion in government.

One of the more blatant examples of this was when Romney was campaigning in 2008 and first discussed the evils of Islamic theocracy only to later express an interest in making our own government more Christian/Mormon in its values and policies.

Right wing sources often make the same mistake.  They readily understand the evils of fundamentalist Islam but are more forgiving of fundamentalist Christianity.

Again, I'm not disputing the violence factor involved when it comes to extreme Islam.  What I'm suggesting is that we need to also take a more critical stance on extreme Christianity and on extremism among all other religions as well.

Jesus Camp is a good movie to watch when it comes to understanding the more extreme side of Christianity here.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6647|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Absolutely.  My remark about targeting Islam refers more to the biases right wing sites sometimes have against Islam but don't subject other religions too.

I think the most balanced and objective sources will scrutinize any religion when it is applicable.  There should be no politically correct restrictions on scrutiny towards religious practices that contradict what secular law deems as inappropriate or illegal.
I am sure those "right wing" sources will bias against the other religions when the violence and intolerance from them balance themselves to that of Islam. Or do you think when Christans start flying airplanes into buildings, blowing up markets, and killing women and children and men who vote, those "right wing" biased sources will dismiss it and not report it?
Well, I'll put it this way....  Every society has its own biases regarding religion.  Because Christianity is more familiar to us, we're more inclined to accept its faults and extremists than those of Islam.  While I would agree that Islam's extremism stands out as more violent here and in many other places than that of Christianity, there are certain views among the right wing that are part of the same problem as fundamentalist Islam is.

For example, most of us in America recognize how bad a theocratic government like Iran's is.  Islamism has shown itself to be a very oppressive force in the world.  Yet, many Christians here seem to forget this lesson in the importance of separation of church and state when conservative politicians express their desire to put more religion in government.

One of the more blatant examples of this was when Romney was campaigning in 2008 and first discussed the evils of Islamic theocracy only to later express an interest in making our own government more Christian/Mormon in its values and policies.

Right wing sources often make the same mistake.  They readily understand the evils of fundamentalist Islam but are more forgiving of fundamentalist Christianity.

Again, I'm not disputing the violence factor involved when it comes to extreme Islam.  What I'm suggesting is that we need to also take a more critical stance on extreme Christianity and on extremism among all other religions as well.

Jesus Camp is a good movie to watch when it comes to understanding the more extreme side of Christianity here.
Get back with me when extreme Christianism gets a foothold and people start to use Christ as an excuse to kill the masses. "Right wing bias" is against a religion that is polar opposite of our society, and when Christianity become the polar opposite to what we believe in, it will get its due attention.

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