How are they doing that? Seems they are doing the exact opposite.and they are preventing the region from unifying as an islamic front, also against american interests
Fuck Israel
are you serious?
if israel did not exist and it was a palestinian state... and if 'cultural proxy' countries like egypt with puppet-democracies elected any 'real' party for the (impoverished and disillusioned, increasingly islamizing) people- the arab world would be united underneath an entirely islamic flag. that's a 'bloc' of interest that directly clashes principally, economically and culturally with the west, who have tried their best to keep interests protected there for years.
israel creating trouble now is a symptom of a deeper underlying cause. it is not conclusively the 'problem' of the middle-east. the problem of the middle-east, as the western world's governments see it, is the brotherhood of islam in egypt, the iranian government, the palestine-sympathizers; hezbollah, hamas, wahhabism, and the droves of ordinary arabs that are driven to ever more islamic values because of the economic and social abandonment perpetrated by their western-gazing governments.
if israel did not exist and it was a palestinian state... and if 'cultural proxy' countries like egypt with puppet-democracies elected any 'real' party for the (impoverished and disillusioned, increasingly islamizing) people- the arab world would be united underneath an entirely islamic flag. that's a 'bloc' of interest that directly clashes principally, economically and culturally with the west, who have tried their best to keep interests protected there for years.
israel creating trouble now is a symptom of a deeper underlying cause. it is not conclusively the 'problem' of the middle-east. the problem of the middle-east, as the western world's governments see it, is the brotherhood of islam in egypt, the iranian government, the palestine-sympathizers; hezbollah, hamas, wahhabism, and the droves of ordinary arabs that are driven to ever more islamic values because of the economic and social abandonment perpetrated by their western-gazing governments.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
But Israel gives the islamics a focal point for all Arabs, and even Persians, to unite against.
Disparate issues in disparate govts across the ME could never unite the Arabs in the same way, even Turkey is headed down this path now.
The US idea, we must support Israel to prevent the ME drifting to islam, has completely backfired - I don't see how it could have gone much worse TBH.
Disparate issues in disparate govts across the ME could never unite the Arabs in the same way, even Turkey is headed down this path now.
The US idea, we must support Israel to prevent the ME drifting to islam, has completely backfired - I don't see how it could have gone much worse TBH.
Fuck Israel
which is why condoleeza and bush made concessions and cutbacks in their role in promoting 'freedom' in egypt.
and is why the western media is now looking at israel with an eye of closer scrutiny.
it DID backfire - but you cannot ignore the original intent.
and is why the western media is now looking at israel with an eye of closer scrutiny.
it DID backfire - but you cannot ignore the original intent.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Dunno how you worked that one out, considering the entire ME is already Islamic save for Israel, and was before its creation.Dilbert_X wrote:
The US idea, we must support Israel to prevent the ME drifting to islam
What it boils down to is the fact the Arabs, who live in a region roughly the size of the US, lost a bit of land smaller than New Jersey and cannot drop a grudge to save their own lives, literally. The land Israel occupies has virtually nothing of value apart from a few religious sites, and its not like the rest of the Arabs or the Persians give a rat's ass about the Pals either. That's just an excuse they use.
wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong.M.O.A.B wrote:
Dunno how you worked that one out, considering the entire ME is already Islamic save for Israel, and was before its creation.Dilbert_X wrote:
The US idea, we must support Israel to prevent the ME drifting to islam
What it boils down to is the fact the Arabs, who live in a region roughly the size of the US, lost a bit of land smaller than New Jersey and cannot drop a grudge to save their own lives, literally. The land Israel occupies has virtually nothing of value apart from a few religious sites, and its not like the rest of the Arabs or the Persians give a rat's ass about the Pals either. That's just an excuse they use.
the entire of the ME is not 'islamic'; not according to the original precepts of islam, nor in a cultural or societal sense.
also, the entire of the middle-east has not always been islamic, which is why there is so much conflict. christians, jews and muslims have all staked their fair case for ownership of the lands. to say that every country other than israel is muslim is both ignorant and reductively convenient for your skewed and (apparently anti-arab) worldview. for instance, look at the historical and current economic importance of the coptic minorities in african-arab nations. they are a source of continuing hardline-conflict and an example of cultural heteronomy in the middle-east. it sounds like you get your view of the middle-east from a tabloid; it is totally egregious and unfounded.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Which, to Muslims, are of immense value.The land Israel occupies has virtually nothing of value apart from a few religious sites
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
the land that israel occupies is of key strategic importance to any military campaign or economic involvement in the region.
same as the suez.
same as the suez.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
how so?Uzique wrote:
the land that israel occupies is of key strategic importance to any military campaign or economic involvement in the region.
same as the suez.
ports?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
suez is a major trading channel for import/export, without which most of arab africa and the subcontinent would be economically cripplied.
us warships get passage through the canal, as do us jets get covert refuelling in cairo, as do the CIA get covert torture-camps by forwarding 'terrorists' to suleiman.
israel and egypt are the two largest recipients of american foreign aid for a reason, you know.
us warships get passage through the canal, as do us jets get covert refuelling in cairo, as do the CIA get covert torture-camps by forwarding 'terrorists' to suleiman.
israel and egypt are the two largest recipients of american foreign aid for a reason, you know.
Last edited by Uzique (2010-06-08 07:49:19)
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
i know that about suez... so israel's importance due in large part to its proximity to suez?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
no that is a separate example, although my bigger point is that both israel+egypt respectively provide an adequate 'block' to islamic hegemony in the region.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Didn't say it always was Islamic, read the second line. I'm also talking in the contemporary sense.Uzique wrote:
wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong.M.O.A.B wrote:
Dunno how you worked that one out, considering the entire ME is already Islamic save for Israel, and was before its creation.Dilbert_X wrote:
The US idea, we must support Israel to prevent the ME drifting to islam
What it boils down to is the fact the Arabs, who live in a region roughly the size of the US, lost a bit of land smaller than New Jersey and cannot drop a grudge to save their own lives, literally. The land Israel occupies has virtually nothing of value apart from a few religious sites, and its not like the rest of the Arabs or the Persians give a rat's ass about the Pals either. That's just an excuse they use.
the entire of the ME is not 'islamic'; not according to the original precepts of islam, nor in a cultural or societal sense.
also, the entire of the middle-east has not always been islamic, which is why there is so much conflict. christians, jews and muslims have all staked their fair case for ownership of the lands. to say that every country other than israel is muslim is both ignorant and reductively convenient for your skewed and (apparently anti-arab) worldview. for instance, look at the historical and current economic importance of the coptic minorities in african-arab nations. they are a source of continuing hardline-conflict and an example of cultural heteronomy in the middle-east. it sounds like you get your view of the middle-east from a tabloid; it is totally egregious and unfounded.
Considering the entire ME is already Islamic save for Israel, and was before its creation (which happened in the 1940's).
Let's see what the dominant religions are of the countries deemed to be in the Middle East shall we?
Bahrain - Shi'a
Egypt - 90% Muslim
Iran - Shi'a Islam
Iraq - 65% Shi'a, 35% Sunni
Israel - Predominantly Jewish
Jordan - 92% Sunni Islam
Kuwait - 85 - 95% Muslim
Lebanon - 28% Shi'a, 28% Sunni, 37% Christian
Oman - Ibadhi Islam
Qatar - 87% Muslim
Saudia Arabia - 97% Muslim
Syria - 72% Sunni
Turkey - 99% Sunni
UAE - Majority Muslim
West Bank - 75% Muslim
Yemen - 52% Sunni, 46% Shi'a
So out of that list we have one country without a Muslim majority - Israel.
those statistics are not proportional. for example, the coptic minority in egypt are frequently seen as being the most economically wealthy (which isn't true - but the perception in itself fuels enough internal cultural conflict). also, you cannot say that a country is 'islamic' when its method of government, legal system and loosely-attributed set of cultural values do not align with Sharia or Islamic law/teachings. this is where the western-allied states come in that create 'blocks' to this concept of a unified arab-nation. islamic 'fundamentalist' states such as Iran call for a unified arab world, which implicitly involves the repudiation of all western values and economic interests. that's bad news for us, so israel and egypt get large amounts of annual foreign-aid funding, as well as securing vast military-arms contracts and being afforded immunity from international law (seemingly).
also in equating "arabs" and their grievance over the loss of the Holy Lands, you are saying "islam". there is no difference when you consider it as a religious or cultural conflict. arabs and islam are synonymous here when it comes to the claim to holy lands. you were not referring to 'arabs' in any wider sense of the word, so i interpreted your meaning on that first, correct basis.
so far throwing out a bunch of demographic statistics has not backed up your wild assumptions and ignorant statements about the region at all.
also in equating "arabs" and their grievance over the loss of the Holy Lands, you are saying "islam". there is no difference when you consider it as a religious or cultural conflict. arabs and islam are synonymous here when it comes to the claim to holy lands. you were not referring to 'arabs' in any wider sense of the word, so i interpreted your meaning on that first, correct basis.
so far throwing out a bunch of demographic statistics has not backed up your wild assumptions and ignorant statements about the region at all.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
What, that the majority of Arabs follow some sect of Islam? And that because of Islam they feel a need to exact revenge upon Israel (and in turn, a Jewish population) for taking over a bit of land?Uzique wrote:
so far throwing out a bunch of demographic statistics has not backed up your wild assumptions and ignorant statements about the region at all.
So tell me what the main religion of the ME is if it isn't Islam.
you're obviously not reading my posts.
im telling you the governments and administrations of many middle-eastern countries are not 'islamic'.
the population demographics don't mean a thing when we are talking about the power structures here.
as i first said, your 'view' of the conflict is conveniently reductive and just hides a real understanding of the geopolitics.
im telling you the governments and administrations of many middle-eastern countries are not 'islamic'.
the population demographics don't mean a thing when we are talking about the power structures here.
as i first said, your 'view' of the conflict is conveniently reductive and just hides a real understanding of the geopolitics.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
I fancy myself an expert on the "middle east" and what zique is saying is correct. Most of these nations have a political elite that consider islam to be tool of control rather than a spiritual belief.
Tu Stultus Es
a lot of muslims, but no Islam in ME
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
...show me the schematic
im writing a paper due in a couple of hours right now about the islamic world and how terrorism isnt unique to it or democracy isnt a foreign concept
Tu Stultus Es
what i have been saying, essentially, in a simple sentence MOAB.Beduin wrote:
a lot of muslims, but no Islam in ME
it's like saying most of the UK is Christian, according to demographic, therefore our government and policy reflects Christian doctrine and value.
it doesn't.
the 'arab nations' that purposefully PREVENT an islamic-state are the closest allies of the USA/Western world. and for good reason.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Alright then, I misunderstood.
I would never call Mubarek a practicing muslim
Tu Stultus Es
although believing the arab world would be united if it were not for israel is silly
Tu Stultus Es
that's my entire point - i haven't gone 'off topic' to discuss states such as egypt to such an extent if i thought israel was the sole preventing object.
mubarak illegally maintains his place as president by basically banning the muslim opposition to his seat. so yeah, damn right, he is far from a practicing muslim.
mubarak illegally maintains his place as president by basically banning the muslim opposition to his seat. so yeah, damn right, he is far from a practicing muslim.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
absolutely. the ruling elite in ME is sure as hell not religious, but the population certainly is. i'd sooner be crowned tsar of russia than saudi wahabbists made an alliance with iranian shia.eleven bravo wrote:
although believing the arab world would be united if it were not for israel is silly
Last edited by Shahter (2010-06-08 09:34:17)
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.