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-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|4552|Ventura, California

Spark wrote:

but Iran is fucked up enough without them having the power to wipe out a country.
They're actually one of the more progessive Middle Eastern countries in many respects.
Tell me more. Which progresses?
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5489|'Murka

ruisleipa wrote:

I do apologise if I have misunderstood your position, as nothing in any posts you have said previously led me to believe that you do not consider gitmo a good idea in any way whatsoever, as your unsuccesful attmepts to prove my points wrong earlier indicated. I also didn't notice any admissions from you that the govt did wrong in establishing gitmo, nor any sign that you did recognise the effects of your governments' actions.
I have stated repeatedly that GITMO--from a foreign policy perspective--is a bad thing. However, that was not its intended purpose, so to say it is a failure based on something that was not its intended purpose is flawed. It has succeeded based on its intended purpose.

Per existing international laws (as opposed to good ideas), my government has done nothing wrong in establishing GITMO. What you fail to recognize (repeatedly) is that any action taken is reviewed by legal experts 20 ways from Sunday before any move is made to ensure no negative legal ramifications will occur (diplomatic/foreign policy ramifications being something else entirely). Thus, no legal fallout from GITMO. Yes, attempts have been made, but nothing has been able to stick. Why do you think that is? It's not because it's blatantly illegal, otherwise, those attempts would have easily succeeded.

ruisleipa wrote:

I on the other hand do NOT 'knee-jerk blame' a single country for all the ills in the world, and if you can find any evidence of that position whatsoever I will happily eat my computer. You're just doing a lowing and putting words into my mouth. All my comments in this thread, for example, were aimed specifically at gitmo as an institution that has certainly caused more harm to America, in particular morally, than possibly anything else, at which point you ineffectively tried to fight against those claims despite them being obviously true.
Oh, you're right. You blame TWO countries for all the ills in the world. But in the process of blaming one of them, you end up just blaming the US, so it's really just you blaming the US in the end.

There's been absolutely nothing ineffective about my arguments in this thread, ruisleipa. Yours, on the other hand...

ruisleipa wrote:

I've NEVER seen any recognition from you of the shortfalls in your govt's Gitmo policy, although I'm absolutely sure you have a lot to complain about in other spheres.
Then obviously you haven't been paying attention.

ruisleipa wrote:

You're only sheep-like if you follow what other people tell you to do, i.e. your govts propaganda abvout gitmo, proven to be wrong.
That is one of the most ironic statements I've seen in quite a while...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|5679|132 and Bush

FEOS wrote:

That is one of the most ironic statements I've seen in quite a while...

FEOS wrote:

Then obviously you haven't been paying attention.
https://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4778/argue.gif
Xbone Stormsurgezz
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5489|'Murka

Kmarion wrote:

FEOS wrote:

That is one of the most ironic statements I've seen in quite a while...

FEOS wrote:

Then obviously you haven't been paying attention.
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4778/argue.gif
Well, I don't know if you've noticed, but I've been MIA for a couple of weeks. So it has been a while.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
ruisleipa
Member
+149|5301|teh FIN-land

FEOS wrote:

I have stated repeatedly that GITMO--from a foreign policy perspective--is a bad thing. However, that was not its intended purpose, so to say it is a failure based on something that was not its intended purpose is flawed. It has succeeded based on its intended purpose.

Per existing international laws (as opposed to good ideas), my government has done nothing wrong in establishing GITMO. What you fail to recognize (repeatedly) is that any action taken is reviewed by legal experts 20 ways from Sunday before any move is made to ensure no negative legal ramifications will occur (diplomatic/foreign policy ramifications being something else entirely). Thus, no legal fallout from GITMO. Yes, attempts have been made, but nothing has been able to stick. Why do you think that is? It's not because it's blatantly illegal, otherwise, those attempts would have easily succeeded.
I remember your arguments about intended purpose and I also remember you failing to disprove my arguments to the contrary.

The legal aspect has never been verified and condoned internationally. There have been and still are plenty of dissenters regarding the legality of gitmo, just you prefer to listen to some and I find other's arguments more persuasive.

FEOS wrote:

Oh, you're right. You blame TWO countries for all the ills in the world. But in the process of blaming one of them, you end up just blaming the US, so it's really just you blaming the US in the end.

There's been absolutely nothing ineffective about my arguments in this thread, ruisleipa. Yours, on the other hand...
Two? which two are they? It's so easy to put words into other people's mouths (or posts) isn't it? Shame it's just your opinion.

FEOS wrote:

Then obviously you haven't been paying attention.
Well above you said that it was succesful and legal, so I don't call that critical really. Do you?

FEOS wrote:

That is one of the most ironic statements I've seen in quite a while...
Oh yeah? Prove it.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5489|'Murka

ruisleipa wrote:

FEOS wrote:

I have stated repeatedly that GITMO--from a foreign policy perspective--is a bad thing. However, that was not its intended purpose, so to say it is a failure based on something that was not its intended purpose is flawed. It has succeeded based on its intended purpose.

Per existing international laws (as opposed to good ideas), my government has done nothing wrong in establishing GITMO. What you fail to recognize (repeatedly) is that any action taken is reviewed by legal experts 20 ways from Sunday before any move is made to ensure no negative legal ramifications will occur (diplomatic/foreign policy ramifications being something else entirely). Thus, no legal fallout from GITMO. Yes, attempts have been made, but nothing has been able to stick. Why do you think that is? It's not because it's blatantly illegal, otherwise, those attempts would have easily succeeded.
I remember your arguments about intended purpose and I also remember you failing to disprove my arguments to the contrary.

The legal aspect has never been verified and condoned internationally. There have been and still are plenty of dissenters regarding the legality of gitmo, just you prefer to listen to some and I find other's arguments more persuasive.
It doesn't matter what I or anyone else here find more persuasive. It matters what courts find more persuasive. And thus far, no court has found any legal challenges to the legality of GITMO to be founded. Dissenters can dissent all they want. That's what free speech is all about.

Your comment regarding purpose makes no sense whatsoever. You argued (incorrectly) that GITMO had some purpose other than detention and interrogation (such as rehabilitation). It never did. You never offered anything other than your opinion to back up your position.

ruisleipa wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Oh, you're right. You blame TWO countries for all the ills in the world. But in the process of blaming one of them, you end up just blaming the US, so it's really just you blaming the US in the end.

There's been absolutely nothing ineffective about my arguments in this thread, ruisleipa. Yours, on the other hand...
Two? which two are they? It's so easy to put words into other people's mouths (or posts) isn't it? Shame it's just your opinion.
US and Israel. Please point out any two other countries that you lay blame on in these forums. You may start with another one, but it always comes back to one of those two, and generally comes back to the US. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm summarizing the content of your post history.

ruisleipa wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Then obviously you haven't been paying attention.
Well above you said that it was succesful and legal, so I don't call that critical really. Do you?
It was successful in its intended purpose and legal under international law but an abysmal failure WRT foreign policy and strategically in the WOT (as I've pointed out numerous times in this thread and many others). If you can't see the critical nature of the latter part of that statement, I can't help you.

ruisleipa wrote:

FEOS wrote:

That is one of the most ironic statements I've seen in quite a while...
Oh yeah? Prove it.
I think you can figure that one out for yourself. You're a smart guy.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
ruisleipa
Member
+149|5301|teh FIN-land

FEOS wrote:

It doesn't matter what I or anyone else here find more persuasive. It matters what courts find more persuasive. And thus far, no court has found any legal challenges to the legality of GITMO to be founded. Dissenters can dissent all they want. That's what free speech is all about.
lol of course they haven't - they've been American courts.

FEOS wrote:

Your comment regarding purpose makes no sense whatsoever. You argued (incorrectly) that GITMO had some purpose other than detention and interrogation (such as rehabilitation). It never did. You never offered anything other than your opinion to back up your position.
We went over this several times before. No point repeating myself. Go back and refresh your memory.

FEOS wrote:

US and Israel. Please point out any two other countries that you lay blame on in these forums. You may start with another one, but it always comes back to one of those two, and generally comes back to the US. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm summarizing the content of your post history.
Well most of the threads have something to do witth the US or Israel so I'm not gonna start spouting off about Zimbabwe am I? Sorry if I touched a nerve, but you are incorrect in your assumption that I blame your lovely country for all the world's ills. I rather think you're getting over-excited, as any belief that that is what I'm saying is merely your interpretation, sorry.

FEOS wrote:

You're a smart guy.
I know.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5489|'Murka

ruisleipa wrote:

FEOS wrote:

It doesn't matter what I or anyone else here find more persuasive. It matters what courts find more persuasive. And thus far, no court has found any legal challenges to the legality of GITMO to be founded. Dissenters can dissent all they want. That's what free speech is all about.
lol of course they haven't - they've been American courts.
lol. If you think American courts haven't been looking for reasons to shut down GITMO, you're on crack. Some of the biggest screamers about it have been American jurists.

ruisleipa wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Your comment regarding purpose makes no sense whatsoever. You argued (incorrectly) that GITMO had some purpose other than detention and interrogation (such as rehabilitation). It never did. You never offered anything other than your opinion to back up your position.
We went over this several times before. No point repeating myself. Go back and refresh your memory.
Right. When one can't make a point, no point in repeating oneself.

ruisleipa wrote:

FEOS wrote:

US and Israel. Please point out any two other countries that you lay blame on in these forums. You may start with another one, but it always comes back to one of those two, and generally comes back to the US. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm summarizing the content of your post history.
Well most of the threads have something to do witth the US or Israel so I'm not gonna start spouting off about Zimbabwe am I? Sorry if I touched a nerve, but you are incorrect in your assumption that I blame your lovely country for all the world's ills. I rather think you're getting over-excited, as any belief that that is what I'm saying is merely your interpretation, sorry.
There are plenty of opportunities to see that roots of existing problems lie with European colonialism or existing European interventionism or just internal problems within a given country. Yet you always seem to see the problems through a prism of US interventionism and/or the Arab/Israeli issue (always taking the anti-Israeli side, mind you...leading predictably to an anti-US rant). You're as predictable as a one-sided coin.

Don't take too much credit--you haven't touched any nerves. I'm simply making an observation.

ruisleipa wrote:

FEOS wrote:

You're a smart guy.
I know.
If only you would use your powers for good...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|5753|Canberra, AUS

-Sh1fty- wrote:

Spark wrote:

but Iran is fucked up enough without them having the power to wipe out a country.
They're actually one of the more progessive Middle Eastern countries in many respects.
Tell me more. Which progresses?
Their treatment of some religious minorities, especially Jews and Christians, is considerably better than many other comparable Middle Eastern nations. It's not great but it's better.

Their society though is much more cosmopolitan and, well, Westernized than some other Middle Eastern societies - as we got a hint of last year.

Last edited by Spark (2010-04-16 04:20:21)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman

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