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2010-02-27 13:29:31
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6690|San Diego, CA, USA
I hope we can have a civil debat on this without this going into a flame war against muslims.

--

Can a devout Muslim be a good American?

https://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8452/pollscbsusaflag15186417.jpg

Soda Head wrote:

NOTE: Article below is reposted for discussion purposes and does not reflect the view of SodaHead.com

I find this to be an interesting "proposition" or "theorem" not only in view of the circumstances at Ft. Hood, but also in view of the transgressions of both "Christians" and "Jews" and "Hindu's" and "Shintos" and pretty much all the members of the world's 'big' religions if they are measured by these same standards.

an a Muslim be a real American?

In light of the murders at Ft. Hood by a Muslim Officer (who had sworn to defend the people, our Constitution and the United States) this article becomes more timely and real than ever;

Can a good Muslim be a good American?

I sent that question to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.

The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah
except Islam.

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of
Islam and the Quran (Koran).

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make
friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual
leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him.

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.

Read more: http://carlstrode.blogspot.com/2009/12/ … rican.html
The United States allows you to practice your religion peacefully, but what I see, especially in Britain, is that extreamists are attempting to enforce their religious beliefs onto the populous.

Examples:

CAIR says clothing chain racist
Muslims spar with congresswoman over her views on Islamic terror
[url=http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-uci-tensions26-2010feb26,0,2749140.story]Muslim radicals defended by CAIR,
Lawyers Guild[/url]
From Magna Carta to Sharia Law – Britain’s Decline
etc...

What is their objective?  Are we kowtowing to them because we want to be politically correct?


Discuss.
2010-02-27 13:30:35
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6858
Freedom of Religion yes?
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-02-27 13:31:53
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5500|London, England
Why would you quote such a stupid article? Everything they said about Muslims could easily be said about devout Christians.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-02-27 13:36:34
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6791

JohnG@lt wrote:

Why would you quote such a stupid article? Everything they said about Muslims could easily be said about devout Christians.
Because he's a hate monger.
2010-02-27 13:37:36
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5379|Cleveland, Ohio

ghettoperson wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Why would you quote such a stupid article? Everything they said about Muslims could easily be said about devout Christians.
Because he's a hate monger.
would be nice if you said that to other people about jews but w/e
2010-02-27 13:38:51
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6791

11 Bravo wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Why would you quote such a stupid article? Everything they said about Muslims could easily be said about devout Christians.
Because he's a hate monger.
would be nice if you said that to other people about jews but w/e
The day I see someone - other than Rammunition, he's not worth debating with - saying Jews can't be good Americans I will call them out on it.
2010-02-27 13:39:45
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5379|Cleveland, Ohio

ghettoperson wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:


Because he's a hate monger.
would be nice if you said that to other people about jews but w/e
The day I see someone - other than Rammunition, he's not worth debating with - saying Jews can't be good Americans I will call them out on it.
oh so it has to be those words.  got it.  and i didnt see the OP say that.
2010-02-27 13:40:10
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6610

ghettoperson wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:


Because he's a hate monger.
would be nice if you said that to other people about jews but w/e
The day I see someone - other than Rammunition, he's not worth debating with - saying Jews can't be good Americans I will call them out on it.
Jews did 9/11
2010-02-27 13:42:58
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6791

11 Bravo wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:


would be nice if you said that to other people about jews but w/e
The day I see someone - other than Rammunition, he's not worth debating with - saying Jews can't be good Americans I will call them out on it.
oh so it has to be those words.  got it.  and i didnt see the OP say that.
You know what I'm fucking talking about. And of course the OP thinks that, that's why he does nothing but post these shitty blogs.
2010-02-27 13:50:37
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6671|Global Command

ghettoperson wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Why would you quote such a stupid article? Everything they said about Muslims could easily be said about devout Christians.
Because he's a hate monger.
Name caller.
2010-02-27 13:51:23
TSI
Cholera in the time of love
+247|6122|Toronto
The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.-->what does that have to do with nationality?

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam.-->Accepted, maybe not. Tolerated, yes. So again, moot point.

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).-->which contravene the American constitution in what way?

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.-->He doesn't revere Mecca. It'd be like saying a christian american cannot be american because he worships in a church.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.-->This is just plain wrong.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.-->The vast majority of mullahs do not preach this at all. That would be like saying every christian must obey Jeremiah Wright.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him.-->he is not instructed to do so. It is allowed. Much as teachers are legally allowed to beat students in the US. They don't have to, and in most cases don't.

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.-->again, wrong. The Constitution is not the Bible. Concepts such as "no murdering allowed" aren't exclusive to the Bible. Nor are taxes.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.-->I wonder where they got this idea from. Maybe somewhere in Louisiana. I doubt it could hold water even there.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.-->What does this have to do with anything?


The biggest issue I have, however, is the lack of definition as to what constitutes a "good american". I would advance that there is no such thing.

Edit: bolded in response to ATG's reading skills.

Last edited by TSI (2010-02-27 14:02:03)

I like pie.
2010-02-27 13:52:20
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6671|Global Command

TSI wrote:

The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.-->what does that have to do with nationality?

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam.-->Accepted, maybe not. Tolerated, yes. So again, moot point.

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).-->which contravene the American constitution in what way?

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.-->He doesn't revere Mecca. It'd be like saying a christian american cannot be american because he worships in a church.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.-->This is just plain wrong.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.-->The vast majority of mullahs do not preach this at all. That would be like saying every christian must obey Jeremiah Wright.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him.-->he is not instructed to do so. It is allowed. Much as teachers are legally allowed to beat students in the US. They don't have to, and in most cases don't.

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.-->again, wrong. The Constitution is not the Bible. Concepts such as "no murdering allowed" aren't exclusive to the Bible. Nor are taxes.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.-->I wonder where they got this idea from. Maybe somewhere in Louisiana. I doubt it could hold water even there.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.-->What does this have to do with anything?


The biggest issue I have, however, is the lack of definition as to what constitutes a "good american". I would advance that there is no such thing.
Thanks for that. I didn't read it in OP.
2010-02-27 13:54:01
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6763|London, England
Yeah you could pretty much say that with all religions, when you get down to the hardcore of it, all religions are pretty much incompatible, not just with the west, but with the entire modern world

what the problem of islam is, is that there's no real sects within the religion like you have with others.

Say for example you start trashing Christianity talking about how stupid something is, some guy will come in saying:

"nuh uh, my american northwestern baptist new haverford ogdenville john smith presbiterian sect doesn't teach that"
There's like a billion different churches in Christianity which gives christians lots of excuses when it comes to parrying the blame or responsibility. Whereas if you have a muslim who's living a normal life, they won't be able to say northwestern baptism or whatever, so you'll get both sides (muslims/right wingers) screaming at them for not really being muslim and thus "they don't count" when it comes to thinks like terrorism and shit.

That's how I see it. That's why I think there's a problem between muslims and non-muslims.

Last edited by Mekstizzle (2010-02-27 13:56:02)

2010-02-27 13:55:43
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6364|teh FIN-land

Harmor wrote:

I hope we can have a civil debat on this without this going into a flame war against muslims.

--

Can a devout Muslim be a good American?

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8452 … 186417.jpg

I find this to be an interesting "proposition" or "theorem" not only in view of the circumstances at Ft. Hood, but also in view of the transgressions of both "Christians" and "Jews" and "Hindu's" and "Shintos" and pretty much all the members of the world's 'big' religions if they are measured by these same standards.

an a Muslim be a real American?

etc etc....
one of the most stupid things ever posted here, and that's saying something. TSI pretty well took it apart I think.
2010-02-27 13:57:38
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6671|Global Command

ruisleipa wrote:

Harmor wrote:

I hope we can have a civil debat on this without this going into a flame war against muslims.

--

Can a devout Muslim be a good American?

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8452 … 186417.jpg

I find this to be an interesting "proposition" or "theorem" not only in view of the circumstances at Ft. Hood, but also in view of the transgressions of both "Christians" and "Jews" and "Hindu's" and "Shintos" and pretty much all the members of the world's 'big' religions if they are measured by these same standards.

an a Muslim be a real American?

etc etc....
one of the most stupid things ever posted here, and that's saying something. TSI pretty well took it apart I think.
Maybe, but he can take it apart. You just stand there in a mute sort of simple silence unable to take apart a package of cheese doodles.
2010-02-27 14:01:52
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|5892|شمال
ATG.. You always sound drunk
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2010-02-27 14:04:28
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6671|Global Command
Yes. It is just a special e fect.
2010-02-27 14:04:33
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6364|teh FIN-land

ATG wrote:

Maybe, but he can take it apart. You just stand there in a mute sort of simple silence unable to take apart a package of cheese doodles.
lol wut?

ya weirdo. it's an internet forum. you hear voices?
2010-02-27 14:10:24
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5379|Cleveland, Ohio

ruisleipa wrote:

Harmor wrote:

I hope we can have a civil debat on this without this going into a flame war against muslims.

--

Can a devout Muslim be a good American?

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8452 … 186417.jpg

I find this to be an interesting "proposition" or "theorem" not only in view of the circumstances at Ft. Hood, but also in view of the transgressions of both "Christians" and "Jews" and "Hindu's" and "Shintos" and pretty much all the members of the world's 'big' religions if they are measured by these same standards.

an a Muslim be a real American?

etc etc....
one of the most stupid things ever posted here, and that's saying something. TSI pretty well took it apart I think.
troll
2010-02-27 16:00:17
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6547|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Why would you quote such a stupid article? Everything they said about Muslims could easily be said about devout Christians.
Pretty much...  Although considering that....

Maybe a better question is...  Does a devoutly religious person have a conflict of interests when living in a free society that values applying secular logic to law over any religious rationales?

Whether it's a Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, or any other follower of a religion, the more orthodox of an interpretation a person has for their faith, the more likely it is that they will hold beliefs that aren't exactly conducive to respecting the freedoms of others.
2010-02-27 17:20:43
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6587|The Land of Scott Walker

JohnG@lt wrote:

Why would you quote such a stupid article? Everything they said about Muslims could easily be said about devout Christians.
Incorrect ... on every point Islam and Christianity are polar opposites

Theologically - a Christian's allegiance is to God, but this does not mean they are prohibited from allegiance to their nation

Religiously - no other religion seen as valid, however Jesus did not instruct Christians to kill unbelievers, but rather show love

Geographically - a Christian's location has no bearing on their faith

Socially - the Christian is instructed to love their neighbor 

Politically/Intellectually/Philosophically/Spiritually  - the basic tenants of Christianity function nicely with representative government 

Domestically - a Christian man is instructed to love his wife just as Christ loves the Church, laying his life down for her if necessary
2010-02-27 18:02:58
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6671|Global Command
I seriousness, I would say yes, if they use common sense and take the good part of Islam and ignore the trolls in their own church.
2010-02-27 18:03:55
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6816|Canberra, AUS

ATG wrote:

I seriousness, I would say yes, if they use common sense and take the good part of Islam and ignore the trolls in their own church.
isn't that true of any religious person?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2010-02-27 18:12:14
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6671|Global Command
Yes.
In fact, common sense would dictate that one be a good citizen where they are at.

That's also why I say those calling for sharia law in the U.K. should be at the least deported and perhaps shot as instigators and usurpers.
2010-02-27 18:30:51
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6913|PNW

Yes. Just because you're a Muslim (or even a devout Muslim) doesn't mean you're radical Muslim; just like not all Christians are hostile evangelists. Besides which, there are practical reform efforts going on for Islam.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2010-02-27 18:32:28)

 

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