Mandatory military service in the US

2010-02-04 16:20:11

#1

Hurricane2k9: Pendulous Sweaty Balls; +1,538|5713|College Park, MD

In my Government lecture today, we were discussing various things and happened upon the subject of the draft/selective service. The teacher asked how many people think we should have a draft, and surprisingly he raised his hand. I didn't raise mine, because I'm not 100% sure where I stand. But these are the benefits I see:

-The country as a whole would be more prepared for a war on our own turf... which isn't likely, but hey.

-I've read a lot of stories of people who have their lives turned around (or at least partially) by serving in the military. It might straighten out a lot of people who would otherwise continue into a bad life.

-This is one of the points the teacher supported... he said that it could make us, as a nation, less prone to blindly supporting a war because a lot more voters will understand what it means beyond "putting boots on the ground"

I think I'd be in support of a mandatory year of service for 18 year olds.

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2010-02-04 16:22:12

#2

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5369|London, England

I didn't read your post yet but I will give a resounding NO to the title.

Edit - And after reading it, the answer is still NO. No volunteer wants to serve next to a draftee. Not only does it completely destroy morale to be surrounded by people who don't want to be there, they are more likely to shirk their jobs and flee in combat. Any person, past or present, that has served in the military voluntarily wants absolutely nothing to do with draftees. All volunteer is the way to go.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-02-04 16:24:22)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2010-02-04 16:25:26

#3

DesertFox-: The very model of a modern major general; +794|6696|United States of America

We don't need it; we're not small and neutral like Switzerland. We're more like Germany: ambitious and misunderstood.

Seriously though, we've got a reasonably sized standing army as it is, and some (including me) would argue that we even need to slim that number down (granted we are involved in a large scale operation overseas right now, but in peacetime it's still a big-ass military.

2010-02-04 19:11:06

#4

Poseidon: Fudgepack DeQueef; +3,253|6549|Long Island, New York

Israel does it. Keeps their youth in shape and they can still have a social life while they do it.

Plus, the girls in the IDF are fucking gorgeous

2010-02-04 19:14:16

#5

Doctor Strangelove: Real Battlefield Veterinarian.; +1,758|6479

Poseidon wrote:
Israel does it. Keeps their youth in shape and they can still have a social life while they do it.

Plus, the girls in the IDF are fucking gorgeous

And we really want to be like Israel.

2010-02-04 19:39:51

#6

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5597

No. No. No.

I think people should have some sort of choice of what they want to do with their lives rather than "Congrats on Graduating high school now off to the military with you!"

This is one of the points the teacher supported... he said that it could make us, as a nation, less prone to blindly supporting a war because a lot more voters will understand what it means beyond "putting boots on the ground"

^^ and here is what the teacher is all about. He's one of those antiwar types who probably never served a day in his life in the military. He just wants to stop war by any means possible.

2010-02-04 19:39:55

#7

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6416|North Carolina

There are times when I prefer Heinlein's idea in Starship Troopers...

Don't have a mandatory draft, but require military or civil service for voting rights.

2010-02-04 19:43:22

#8

Canin: Conservative Roman Catholic; +280|6486|Foothills of S. Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:
I didn't read your post yet but I will give a resounding NO to the title.

Edit - And after reading it, the answer is still NO. No volunteer wants to serve next to a draftee. Not only does it completely destroy morale to be surrounded by people who don't want to be there, they are more likely to shirk their jobs and flee in combat. Any person, past or present, that has served in the military voluntarily wants absolutely nothing to do with draftees. All volunteer is the way to go.

This

And no, I did not serve, but not for lack of wanting to. My eye sight is so bad I couldn't even run sonar on a sub.

2010-02-04 19:43:42

#9

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5597

Turquoise wrote:
Don't have a mandatory draft, but require military or civil service for voting rights.

If you think the industrial military complex is a bitch now wait until only the people who served time in the military gets to decide on who are the leaders.

Aside from that wasn't the world of Starship troopers ultra fascist?

2010-02-04 19:50:38

#10

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6416|North Carolina

Macbeth wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
Don't have a mandatory draft, but require military or civil service for voting rights.
If you think the industrial military complex is a bitch now wait until only the people who served time in the military gets to decide on who are the leaders.

Aside from that wasn't the world of Starship troopers ultra fascist?

Yes, it was undoubtedly fascist. That small part of the book's ideas wasn't though. It was a Spartan-esque idea.

Also, I think a lot of people finish military service with a much more cautious view toward war than many of the "chickenhawks" of the neocons.

If the average person understood the workings of the military more comprehensively and had more experience with what foreign policy entails, I think people would generally be more reluctant to support interventionism.

Granted, the military industrial complex is a concern. The biggest logistical problem with bringing back a draft or even implementing what I mentioned is that it would require a considerable expansion of the military to function properly. Seeing as how we already spend a ton on the military, I think a draft would be very unfavorable to our interests.

The policy I suggested probably would be as well from a fiscal perspective.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-02-04 19:50:59)

2010-02-04 19:56:48

#11

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6164|what

Turquoise wrote:
There are times when I prefer Heinlein's idea in Starship Troopers...

Don't have a mandatory draft, but require military or civil service for voting rights.

The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools.

2010-02-04 20:14:28

#12

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5597

Turquoise wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
Don't have a mandatory draft, but require military or civil service for voting rights.
If you think the industrial military complex is a bitch now wait until only the people who served time in the military gets to decide on who are the leaders.

Aside from that wasn't the world of Starship troopers ultra fascist?
Yes, it was undoubtedly fascist. That small part of the book's ideas wasn't though. It was a Spartan-esque idea. The Spartans weren't known for their advancements in technology, learning, trade....

Also, I think a lot of people finish military service with a much more cautious view toward war than many of the "chickenhawks" of the neocons.

If the average person understood the workings of the military more comprehensively and had more experience with what foreign policy entailsShoot at them if they shoot at you? I don't see how spending time taking orders or getting shoot at gives you a deep knowledge of how diplomacy or politics works., I think people would generally be more reluctant to support interventionism. They could also become much more ready to intervene, could go either way.
Granted, the military industrial complex is a concern. The biggest logistical problem with bringing back a draft or even implementing what I mentioned is that it would require a considerable expansion of the military to function properly. Seeing as how we already spend a ton on the military, I think a draft would be very unfavorable to our interests.o/\o

The policy I suggested probably would be as well from a fiscal perspective.Considering the U.S. military is already huge and can kill better than ice is cold_{thus most states rather do bussiness with us rather than go to war since they will more than likely lose.} and we haven't fought a war against another industrial nation since WW2 and by your own standards we would be less willing to intervene how would it make the budget go down if you tell people "in order to vote you have to join the military that doesn't do much fighting these days and you will probably just sit on base all day and never do any fighting"? Wouldn't people flock to this secure paycheck in the non fighting military to get their voting rights and live decently enough for awhile?

2010-02-04 20:23:17

#13

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6416|North Carolina

Macbeth wrote:
The Spartans weren't known for their advancements in technology, learning, trade....

Yes, but they did kick some ass....

Macbeth wrote:
Shoot at them if they shoot at you? I don't see how spending time taking orders or getting shoot at gives you a deep knowledge of how diplomacy or politics works.

On average, for every actual infantryman, there are about 10 support soldiers behind him. Plenty of military jobs are more strategic and thought-provoking than simply standing on the frontlines.

It all depends on what military job you end up getting.

Macbeth wrote:
Considering the U.S. military is already huge and can kill better than ice is cold_{thus most states rather do bussiness with us rather than go to war since they will more than likely lose.} and we haven't fought a war against another industrial nation since WW2 and by your own standards we would be less willing to intervene how would it make the budget go down if you tell people "in order to vote you have to join the military that doesn't do much fighting these days and you will probably just sit on base all day and never do any fighting"? Wouldn't people flock to this secure paycheck in the non fighting military to get their voting rights and live decently enough for awhile?

Well, if you believe that, then we should currently see more of that happening. So far, it hasn't happened. The military doesn't seem to have any trouble filling its quotas for enlistment, but the numbers aren't that extreme. I think you'd see more enlistment just to have the privilege of voting.

As things currently stand, voting is a right, which is why it's often taken for granted.

Of course, as I said, I sometimes feel like Heinlein's idea is the right one. It's usually when I'm in a bad mood....

2010-02-04 20:47:13

#14

13urnzz: Banned; +5,830|6508

because i'm 4F i won't be able to vote?

2010-02-04 20:51:58

#15

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5369|London, England

Turquoise wrote:
There are times when I prefer Heinlein's idea in Starship Troopers...

Don't have a mandatory draft, but require military or civil service for voting rights.

I'm all about it. Do you support his public floggings for transgressions as well?

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2010-02-04 20:56:52

#16

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5369|London, England

Turquoise wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
Don't have a mandatory draft, but require military or civil service for voting rights.
If you think the industrial military complex is a bitch now wait until only the people who served time in the military gets to decide on who are the leaders.

Aside from that wasn't the world of Starship troopers ultra fascist?
Yes, it was undoubtedly fascist. That small part of the book's ideas wasn't though. It was a Spartan-esque idea.

Also, I think a lot of people finish military service with a much more cautious view toward war than many of the "chickenhawks" of the neocons.

If the average person understood the workings of the military more comprehensively and had more experience with what foreign policy entails, I think people would generally be more reluctant to support interventionism.

Granted, the military industrial complex is a concern. The biggest logistical problem with bringing back a draft or even implementing what I mentioned is that it would require a considerable expansion of the military to function properly. Seeing as how we already spend a ton on the military, I think a draft would be very unfavorable to our interests.

The policy I suggested probably would be as well from a fiscal perspective.

It wasn't just military service that earned the people their franchise, it was government service in general. You just had limited choice in where you were placed, it was wherever the government felt that you would serve best.

Frankly, career government 'servants' are the major reason that our governments budget is so bloated. I would fully support all government service being a voluntary thing that you sign onto for four year commitments at a time. They should also make the same pay as current military members.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2010-02-04 21:27:42

#17

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6416|North Carolina

burnzz wrote:
because i'm 4F i won't be able to vote?

4F?...

2010-02-04 21:28:47

#18

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6416|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
There are times when I prefer Heinlein's idea in Starship Troopers...

Don't have a mandatory draft, but require military or civil service for voting rights.
I'm all about it. Do you support his public floggings for transgressions as well?

For certain white collar crimes, yes. Madoff should get a daily flogging for the rest of his life.

JohnG@lt wrote:
It wasn't just military service that earned the people their franchise, it was government service in general. You just had limited choice in where you were placed, it was wherever the government felt that you would serve best.

Frankly, career government 'servants' are the major reason that our governments budget is so bloated. I would fully support all government service being a voluntary thing that you sign onto for four year commitments at a time. They should also make the same pay as current military members.

Good points... But yeah, civil service is a good alternative to military service.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-02-04 21:30:15)

2010-02-04 21:53:04

#19

Shahter: Zee Ruskie; +295|6786|Moscow, Russia

bad idea. i'm sure you've heard those stories about russian mostly conscript army - those are to be taken with a grain of salt of course, but the general idea's true, imo: self dicsipline and awareness of what being a citizen of ones nation really entails cannot really be forcibly fed to just anybody - certainly not to a crowd if 18 years olds who basically got removed from their lives when their minds were about chasing girls and fooling around and put together. also, what g@lt said in his first post here.

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

2010-02-04 22:36:15

#20

ruisleipa: Member; +149|6233|teh FIN-land

Poseidon wrote:
Plus, the girls in the IDF are fucking gorgeous

yeah especially when they shoot civilians, that really gets me hawt!!! woot!

2010-02-04 22:37:31

#21

ruisleipa: Member; +149|6233|teh FIN-land

Macbeth wrote:
^^ and here is what the teacher is all about. He's one of those antiwar types who probably never served a day in his life in the military. He just wants to stop war by any means possible.

ewww! What en EVIL, DISGUSTING man!

WAR WAR WAR!

2010-02-05 00:55:48

#22

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|6727

ruisleipa wrote:
Poseidon wrote:
Plus, the girls in the IDF are fucking gorgeous
yeah especially when they shoot civilians, that really gets me hawt!!! woot!

IDF female's aren't really allowed on the frontlines. Women don't get sent to frontlines just in case they get captured...

GS had an idea where if people get drafted they become POGs and do other shit the infantrymen won't want to do. But the US military is more than large enough now by itself.

As John said, no one wants to serve next to a fucking draftee.

Wars are sometimes necessary not only to helping yourself, but helping others. Hell I'm in full support of invading and stabilizing countries like Sudan and Somalia. It's fucking disgusting that no nation gives a fuck.

The military is so fucking important when it comes to delivering humanitarian aid. Take Haiti for example, would you really want to go and deliver aid with a strong fear of your safety? Who else but the US military has the logistical capability of trying to calm shit down. Some fucktard at school was saying putting troops on the ground was an "invasion." The fucking UN even begged the US to stay there in the first place.

https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png

2010-02-05 01:36:03

#23

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|6821|Nårvei

Cybargs wrote:
ruisleipa wrote:
Poseidon wrote:
Plus, the girls in the IDF are fucking gorgeous
yeah especially when they shoot civilians, that really gets me hawt!!! woot!
IDF female's aren't really allowed on the frontlines. Women don't get sent to frontlines just in case they get captured...

GS had an idea where if people get drafted they become POGs and do other shit the infantrymen won't want to do. But the US military is more than large enough now by itself.

As John said, no one wants to serve next to a fucking draftee.

Wars are sometimes necessary not only to helping yourself, but helping others. Hell I'm in full support of invading and stabilizing countries like Sudan and Somalia. It's fucking disgusting that no nation gives a fuck.

The military is so fucking important when it comes to delivering humanitarian aid. Take Haiti for example, would you really want to go and deliver aid with a strong fear of your safety? Who else but the US military has the logistical capability of trying to calm shit down. Some fucktard at school was saying putting troops on the ground was an "invasion." The fucking UN even begged the US to stay there in the first place.

Ehr ... IDF is about the only millitary force in the world that actually allowes females to serve in the frontlines ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2010-02-05 04:04:59

#24

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6422|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:
Also, I think a lot of people finish military service with a much more cautious view toward war than many of the "chickenhawks" of the neocons.

If the average person understood the workings of the military more comprehensively and had more experience with what foreign policy entails, I think people would generally be more reluctant to support interventionism.

The man makes an excellent point.

And while at one time I thought the concept in Starship Troopers were interesting, I find them to be anathema to what I took an oath to defend. People have the right to choose NOT to serve in government service, but they can certainly serve their fellow man in other ways that are just as--if not more--useful in the private sector. That doesn't make them less worthy of voting (or any other) rights.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2010-02-05 06:51:25

#25

13urnzz: Banned; +5,830|6508

Turquoise wrote:
burnzz wrote:
because i'm 4F i won't be able to vote?
4F?...

it's a medical disqualification. i took the ASVAB, and reported for a physical to join the Marines. i told the recruiter i couldn't see out my left eye, but he said 'no problemo'. So i show up, and they run me through a bunch of tests, i'm doing well and the last one is an eye chart. the doctor says cover your eye and read the smallest line you can. i said " ... ". he said c'mon, son, i ain't got all day! when i replied i couldn't see the wall, let alone the chart he simply said "Next!"

ruisleipa wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
^^ and here is what the teacher is all about. He's one of those antiwar types who probably never served a day in his life in the military. He just wants to stop war by any means possible.
ewww! What en EVIL, DISGUSTING man!

WAR WAR WAR!

there was a history teacher who served in Vietnam that i passed in the hallway. being a teenaged smartass i said "Peace, Mr. Lincoln" while giving the v sign.
he turned and said "What, for your mama?"

i fully deserved it.

BF2S Forums Mandatory military service in the US

Poseidon wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

burnzz wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

burnzz wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

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