Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5876

An interesting article from CNN. In short, The Philippine-American was won not by winning hearts and minds but by using extreme force without regard for human life.

interesting parts of the article wrote:

Kramer said the U.S. military was small at the time. Filipino forces knew the terrain and had local support. The U.S. military had also never fought a guerilla war outside the mainland. (The 19th century wars against American Indians are considered guerilla war by some military historians.)

When they first started fighting, American soldiers struggled to adjust, Kramer said. Filipino guerillas attacked them and then blended in with the civilian population.

“American soldiers really found it disturbing and traumatizing. They didn’t know who was an enemy and who was an ally,” Kramer said.

All war is brutal, but several historians and military experts say the war in the Philippines was barbaric, even by military standards.

Yet the United States won, in part, because it was willing to be brutal, some military historians say. According to an official State Department account of the war, at least 4,200 American soldiers, 20,000 Filipino combatants and as many as 200,000 Filipino civilians died from violence and famine during the war.

Filipino fighters deliberately sought to drag the war on with hit-and-run tactics that would turn the American public against the war, historians say. It was the classic guerilla strategy: Win by avoiding big, pitched battles and melt into the civilian population.

But the U.S. military responded to the guerilla strategy with a simple strategy of their own, some historians say: Kill them all.

Civilian casualties were not accidental, but intentional, says Lt. Col. Michael E. Silverman, an Iraq war veteran and a counterinsurgency training consultant for the U.S. Army.

“Victory there was achieved by a brutal strategy of near genocide. … Many of the officers and sergeants who fought the war were veterans of the Indian Wars and brought with them the idea from Gen. Philip Sheridan: ‘The only good Indians I’ve seen were dead.’’’

The U.S. military forced Filipino villagers outside of their villages into population centers where they could be separated from guerillas. They killed villagers’ livestock and torched crops, says John Hinshaw, a history professor at Lebanon Valley College in Annville, Pennsylvania.

“They were the same tactics that worked against the Plains Indians in the 1870s and 1880s,” he says
http://afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/0 … t-vietnam/
So if we could "get away with it" do you think we should unleash the same aount of violence on the Afghans as we did the Filipinos?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England
No, because we're not planning to stay. We were colonizing the Philippines with the intention of staying.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6702|'Murka

There's that, and there's also the fact that sensibilities are completely different today than they were back then, as well as access to information. People didn't know what happened back then until well after the fact, commanders had more independence once given the go-ahead due to longer lines of communication, etc.

Totally different operating environment.

Apples and oranges, tbh.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7005|US
No.  Militaries should not target civilians.

There is a difference between double effect and intentionally harming civilians.
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5550|foggy bottom
We kinda lost in the phillipines
Tu Stultus Es
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6912|London, England
Why the hell was the US in the phillipines anyway
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

Mekstizzle wrote:

Why the hell was the US in the phillipines anyway
Spanish-American War. We took their remaining colonies Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Philippines.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6702|'Murka

Mekstizzle wrote:

Why the hell was the US in the phillipines anyway
Because we're bloodthirsty imperial crusaders. Just ask any number of trolls in bf2s.

Duh.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5550|foggy bottom
quick fact:

The US Army adopted the M1911 because the prior service pistol (a .38) was not powerful enough to lay out crazy philipino knife fighting insurgents.
Tu Stultus Es
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6702|'Murka

eleven bravo wrote:

quick fact:

The US Army adopted the M1911 because the prior service pistol (a .38) was not powerful enough to lay out crazy philipino knife fighting insurgents.
And it looked cooler when you fired it gansta style.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
loubot
O' HAL naw!
+470|6869|Columbus, OH
The Philippines has a better industry/economy than Afghan ever will. Comparing the two countries are not on par.

*You will not get the same results, even if history says it is possible.

Last edited by loubot (2010-01-08 10:18:47)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

loubot wrote:

The Philippines has a better industry/economy than Afghan ever will. Comparing the two countries are not on par.
Manilla ropes (named after the capital of the Philippines) were heavily used throughout the shipping world at the time so that alone made it worthwhile
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5550|foggy bottom
and the phillipines still has a muslim insurgency
Tu Stultus Es
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6702|'Murka

eleven bravo wrote:

and the phillipines still has a muslim insurgency
And a functioning central government and military/SOF that does a fairly good job of fucking those dudes up pretty regularly.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5550|foggy bottom
My last command SGM I went to psyop school with was a green beret from vietnam who speant a lot of his time in the phillipines.
Tu Stultus Es
loubot
O' HAL naw!
+470|6869|Columbus, OH
I believe the Soviets have tried the "Kill them all" approach during the Afghan invasion / ocupation in the 1980's.......it didn't work
Benzin
Member
+576|6289

FEOS wrote:

There's that, and there's also the fact that sensibilities are completely different today than they were back then, as well as access to information. People didn't know what happened back then until well after the fact, commanders had more independence once given the go-ahead due to longer lines of communication, etc.

Totally different operating environment.

Apples and oranges, tbh.
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6041|شمال
Moooar terrorism will be the outcome, for sure!
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6397|eXtreme to the maX
A) WTF was the US in the Philippines for?
B) Actually Hitlers Blitzkrieg is probably a better example of what you're looking for.
Steamroller through the opposing army
Don't give a thought to civilians, except for shock and awe
Install a govt which will do your bidding
Fuck Israel
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6966|Canberra, AUS

Dilbert_X wrote:

A) WTF was the US in the Philippines for?
Spain.

B) Actually Hitlers Blitzkrieg is probably a better example of what you're looking for.
Steamroller through the opposing army
Don't give a thought to civilians, except for shock and awe
Install a govt which will do your bidding
Fair point but that was a very, very conventional war.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
cl4u53w1t2
Salon-Bolschewist
+269|6764|Kakanien

FEOS wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Why the hell was the US in the phillipines anyway
Because we're bloodthirsty imperial crusaders.
"The Philippine–American War, sometimes known as the Philippine War of Independence (1899-1902) was an armed military conflict between the Philippines and the United States, which arose from the struggle of the First Philippine Republic against United States' annexation of the islands."

"In its aftermath, the war and United States' occupation would change the cultural landscape of the islands, as the people dealt with an estimated 200,000-1,500,000 casualties and the introduction of the English language as the primary language of government and some businesses."

"In an article, We Charge Genocide: A Brief History of US in the Philippines, appearing in the December, 2005 issue of Political Affairs, E. San Juan, Jr., director of the Philippines Cultural Studies Center, Connecticut, argued that during the Philippine–American War (1899-1902) and pacification campaign (1902-1913), the operations launched by the U.S. against the Filipinos, an integral part of its pacification program, which claimed the lives 1.4 million Filipinos, constituted genocide."

"United States attacks into the countryside often included scorched earth campaigns where entire villages were burned and destroyed, torture (water cure) and the concentration of civilians into “protected zones”. Many of the civilian casualties resulted from disease and famine."

etc.

yes, you're pretty right

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine-American_War
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina
What we did to the Philippines is one of the darker periods of our history.  For all practical purposes, I would agree that it was genocide.  You could pretty much say the same about what we did to many Native American tribes.

I guess the only comfort I can take in this is that we at least have the balls to admit to the darker things we've done, rather than deny them like Turkey does (the Armenian genocide) or completely ignore them like Japan (who refuses to teach its schoolchildren about things like the Rape of Nanking).
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6513|teh FIN-land

Turquoise wrote:

I guess the only comfort I can take in this is that we at least have the balls to admit to some of the darker things we've done,
fix'd, maybe?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6696|North Carolina

ruisleipa wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I guess the only comfort I can take in this is that we at least have the balls to admit to some of the darker things we've done,
fix'd, maybe?
Ask the average Turk about the Armenian genocide.  You'll get an interesting response most likely.

Ask a Japanese student about the Rape of Nanking and you'll probably get a puzzled look.
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6513|teh FIN-land

Turquoise wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I guess the only comfort I can take in this is that we at least have the balls to admit to some of the darker things we've done,
fix'd, maybe?
Ask the average Turk about the Armenian genocide.  You'll get an interesting response most likely.

Ask a Japanese student about the Rape of Nanking and you'll probably get a puzzled look.
yeah yeah my point was that it's not like the US in general sayd 'we fucked up at time X, Y and Z' - so I changed your statement to admit to SOME of the darker things we've done. A minority of things tbh. But some.

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