mikkel
Member
+383|6743

Pubic wrote:

Both sea sheppard and the whaling fleet are idiots for ramming each other.

What the whalers need to do is start respecting other nations sovereign territory.  Specifically, antarctic territorial claims.
In being territorial claims, Antarctic territorial claims are not sovereign territory, and are not recognised at all by any nations other than the seven who have sliced up the continent and claimed it as their own. This does not include Japan, nor any really significant world power.

Last edited by mikkel (2010-01-08 23:15:04)

BVC
Member
+325|6837
The only formal antarctic territorial dispute concerns the overlapping chilean/argentine/UK claims.  Apart from the claim made by nazi germany, which was dropped following the surrender of nazi germany in WW2, there have been no other formal antarctic territorial disputes.

If no other countries care enough to make or dispute a claim (there is still an unclaimed slice BTW), it can be argued that de facto recognition has taken place.

It could also be argued that the whaling fleet's presence constitutes an informal dispute, but as it is officially a research programme, it is technically not.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6806|NT, like Mick Dundee

Cybargs wrote:

krazed wrote:

Cybargs wrote:


In Aus koala's are overpopulating and starving themselves to death later on... Not that many eucalyptus trees around...
why don't they do a cull?
They actually do sometimes. But retarded environmentalists always scream how cute they are and how they are an endangered species.
Aren't you talking about Kangaroos and wallabies *spit*? The issue with Koalas is lack of habitat. There's fuck all gumtrees because we cut them all down in the areas Koalas inhabit. We also run them over, shoot them and kick them in the face. Little cunts bite see. Don't get me started on Drop Bears.


On Antartica, doesn't the USA have some sort of thingy in the treaty reserving the right to claim in the future.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
mikkel
Member
+383|6743

Pubic wrote:

The only formal antarctic territorial dispute concerns the overlapping chilean/argentine/UK claims.  Apart from the claim made by nazi germany, which was dropped following the surrender of nazi germany in WW2, there have been no other formal antarctic territorial disputes.

If no other countries care enough to make or dispute a claim (there is still an unclaimed slice BTW), it can be argued that de facto recognition has taken place.

It could also be argued that the whaling fleet's presence constitutes an informal dispute, but as it is officially a research programme, it is technically not.
It most certainly can not be inferred that an absence of territorial claim constitutes de-facto recognition. Japan has laid no claim to Antarctic land, and it explicitly does not recognise any of the claims. The territory is also not recognised by any other country amongst those which recognise the sovereignty of the claimants over their non-Arctic possessions.

An absence of recognition is non-recognition, and this is further cemented by the enforcement of domestic legislation in Antarctica by certain countries, most notably the United States who maintain a law enforcement presence in Antarctic territory claimed by New Zealand, and enforce U.S. law across all of Antarctica. This would simply not happen in the presence of any form of formal recognition, implicit or explicit, of the claims held by the claimant nations.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6858

Flecco wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

krazed wrote:


why don't they do a cull?
They actually do sometimes. But retarded environmentalists always scream how cute they are and how they are an endangered species.
Aren't you talking about Kangaroos and wallabies *spit*? The issue with Koalas is lack of habitat. There's fuck all gumtrees because we cut them all down in the areas Koalas inhabit. We also run them over, shoot them and kick them in the face. Little cunts bite see. Don't get me started on Drop Bears.


On Antartica, doesn't the USA have some sort of thingy in the treaty reserving the right to claim in the future.
Roos are being farmed though...

I'm saying the pops of koala's are low due to the fact there are fuckall gum tree's left. So there usually are cull's around victoria.

Well for Antarctica: There are major oil deposits in the area, but theres a treaty not to touch it until 2050.

Aus, GB, US own some territories in Antarctica, but it's mainly for research purposes.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
BVC
Member
+325|6837

mikkel wrote:

It most certainly can not be inferred that an absence of territorial claim constitutes de-facto recognition.
If you want to refute me, you'll have to do better than just disagreeing with me.

Japan has laid no claim to Antarctic land, and it explicitly does not recognise any of the claims. The territory is also not recognised by any other country amongst those which recognise the sovereignty of the claimants over their non-Arctic possessions.

An absence of recognition is non-recognition, and this is further cemented by the enforcement of domestic legislation in Antarctica by certain countries, most notably the United States who maintain a law enforcement presence in Antarctic territory claimed by New Zealand, and enforce U.S. law across all of Antarctica. This would simply not happen in the presence of any form of formal recognition, implicit or explicit, of the claims held by the claimant nations.
So the US enforces domestic US law across all of Antarctica?  Pull the other one mate.  The reason they have a facility inside of our territory is because we actually get along pretty well with them, and also for geographical reasons (proximity of suitable airports to antarctica etc).  I think Italy also shares that facility.

Most nations don't give a toss about Antarctica, those that do have claimed a slice (or reserved the right to do so).  Theres even a fair chunk of it which remains unclaimed.  Any country desperate to expand it's borders without a fight could probably stick their flag into that without too much furore, and if any nation was truly concerned about another nation's claim, they could simply dispute it (pulling out of the treaty if necessary).  Nations have claimed it, and none outside of the claimants - signatories or otherwise - have disputed it.  Seems pretty open and closed to me.

Cybargs, do you know if its possible to farm Koalas?
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6806|NT, like Mick Dundee

Why would you farm them? The little cunts bite. HARD.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
mikkel
Member
+383|6743

Pubic wrote:

mikkel wrote:

It most certainly can not be inferred that an absence of territorial claim constitutes de-facto recognition.
If you want to refute me, you'll have to do better than just disagreeing with me.
You seem to have omitted the lines below, which gave you an exact example of how you're wrong.

Pubic wrote:

Japan has laid no claim to Antarctic land, and it explicitly does not recognise any of the claims. The territory is also not recognised by any other country amongst those which recognise the sovereignty of the claimants over their non-Arctic possessions.

An absence of recognition is non-recognition, and this is further cemented by the enforcement of domestic legislation in Antarctica by certain countries, most notably the United States who maintain a law enforcement presence in Antarctic territory claimed by New Zealand, and enforce U.S. law across all of Antarctica. This would simply not happen in the presence of any form of formal recognition, implicit or explicit, of the claims held by the claimant nations.
So the US enforces domestic US law across all of Antarctica?  Pull the other one mate.
You may want to investigate this before writing it off. The U.S. Marshal Service enforces the Antarctic Conservation Act, a provision of United States Code, which is domestic legislation.

Pubic wrote:

The reason they have a facility inside of our territory is because we actually get along pretty well with them, and also for geographical reasons (proximity of suitable airports to antarctica etc).  I think Italy also shares that facility.
It is not New Zealand territory as recognised by the United States. Nor is it New Zealand territory as according to Italy, as far as I'm aware. I haven't been able to find a single sovereign nation recognising New Zealand's claim to the territory outside of the other claimants to Antarctic territory.

Pubic wrote:

Most nations don't give a toss about Antarctica, those that do have claimed a slice (or reserved the right to do so).  Theres even a fair chunk of it which remains unclaimed.  Any country desperate to expand it's borders without a fight could probably stick their flag into that without too much furore, and if any nation was truly concerned about another nation's claim, they could simply dispute it (pulling out of the treaty if necessary).  Nations have claimed it, and none outside of the claimants - signatories or otherwise - have disputed it.  Seems pretty open and closed to me.
I assume by "treaty" you're referencing the Antarctic Treaty System. I fail to see why any nation would wish to end their membership over a territorial dispute, as the system explicitly does not recognise any territorial claims. The system, in fact, prohibits members from making any new territorial claims.

You start your post by saying that refutation requires more than disagreement, and then go on to do nothing but disagree by voicing vague speculation. This is not very impressive.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6294|what

Let's not forget that the Japanese have repeatedly said they are hunting whales for "research".
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6858

AussieReaper wrote:

Let's not forget that the Japanese have repeatedly said they are hunting whales for "research".
Research for tastiness.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6294|what

Cybargs wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Let's not forget that the Japanese have repeatedly said they are hunting whales for "research".
Research for tastiness.
https://i48.tinypic.com/2jecyft.gif
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6552|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

The Sea Shepherds are technically doing illegal things, but then again, what the Japanese are doing may soon make whales extinct.  The Japanese also are doing this sort of thing to dolphins.

While it is true that our own agricultural industry does pretty nasty things to chickens and cows, neither are endangered species.  They're being farmed, not killed off.

Still, money talks, so no one gives a shit as long as Japan has the cash to keep us interested in looking the other way.

In the meantime, the Sea Shepherds do their thing, and I'm cool with that.  Give 'em hell.
Looking at the numbers, it doesn't appear that what the Japanese are doing would put the whales in danger of extinction any time soon. And none of the whales they hunt (erm..."research") are endangered.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
krazed
Admiral of the Bathtub
+619|6921|Great Brown North

Cybargs wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Let's not forget that the Japanese have repeatedly said they are hunting whales for "research".
Research for tastiness.

krazed wrote:

research with a side order of rice
tbh
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6547|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

The Sea Shepherds are technically doing illegal things, but then again, what the Japanese are doing may soon make whales extinct.  The Japanese also are doing this sort of thing to dolphins.

While it is true that our own agricultural industry does pretty nasty things to chickens and cows, neither are endangered species.  They're being farmed, not killed off.

Still, money talks, so no one gives a shit as long as Japan has the cash to keep us interested in looking the other way.

In the meantime, the Sea Shepherds do their thing, and I'm cool with that.  Give 'em hell.
Looking at the numbers, it doesn't appear that what the Japanese are doing would put the whales in danger of extinction any time soon. And none of the whales they hunt (erm..."research") are endangered.
If it turns out that none of the species they kill are endangered, then they're off the hook.  If not...  well, something needs to be done.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6552|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

The Sea Shepherds are technically doing illegal things, but then again, what the Japanese are doing may soon make whales extinct.  The Japanese also are doing this sort of thing to dolphins.

While it is true that our own agricultural industry does pretty nasty things to chickens and cows, neither are endangered species.  They're being farmed, not killed off.

Still, money talks, so no one gives a shit as long as Japan has the cash to keep us interested in looking the other way.

In the meantime, the Sea Shepherds do their thing, and I'm cool with that.  Give 'em hell.
Looking at the numbers, it doesn't appear that what the Japanese are doing would put the whales in danger of extinction any time soon. And none of the whales they hunt (erm..."research") are endangered.
If it turns out that none of the species they kill are endangered, then they're off the hook.  If not...  well, something needs to be done.
Well it just so turns out that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling#Co … ion_status

IWC - Japan Special Permit Catches (1988 - 2008) [60]
Area                     Fin           Sperm     Sei          Brydes     Minke     Total
N Pacific        0           45                 492          396             1728     2661
S Hemisphere     13           0             0           0                     8715     8728

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Japan_whaling_1985-2006.svg/600px-Japan_whaling_1985-2006.svg.png

So any endangered catches that Japan performs are done IAW permits given by IWC (sei and fin). The vast majority of catches are of the minke whale, which are not at all endangered.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
HollisHurlbut
Member
+51|6139
I've not the time or the stomach to read the entire thread to see just how flexibly contortionistic Sea Shepherd's defenders can be in order to bend over backwards for them.

Sea Shepherd intentionally rams ships.  They outright declare their intent to foul propellers of ships operating in the rough Southern Ocean, where loss of propulsion means a not-trivial probability of capsizing.  They have installed on at least one of their ships a device they call "the can opener" -- its only purpose is to breach the hulls of ships they ram.  They openly brag about ships they claim to have sunk.

And now they want to turn around and complain that they are the victims?  I'm not buying that bullshit.  If the intentional and unprovoked ramming of a ship is an acceptable tactic when Sea Shepherd uses it against the Japanese, then it's exactly as acceptable if the Japanese use it against Sea Shepherd.  They don't get to claim a special status that protects them from the exact same tactics they themselves are using against others.  If they want to play their stupid game, they can accept the very real possibility that someone won't appreciate it too much and take defensive (or preventive offensive) action against them.

Given Sea Shepherd's tactics and especially the location of the ships concerned (the Southern Ocean is not a hospitable location by any stretch of the imagination) they should not only be unsuprised, but expect a response that is increasingly hostile and possibly violent.  If Japanese whaling vessels were to open fire on any SS vessel that approached them, I would be neither surprised nor critical.  And if SS doesn't like the prospect of being in harm's way, then those punkass bitches should shut their mouths and stop risking other people's lives.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5500|London, England
SYDNEY —  The anti-whaling ship the Bob Barker and a Japanese harpoon boat collided in the icy waters off Antarctica on Saturday — the second major clash this year in the increasingly aggressive confrontations between the two sides.

No one was reportedly injured in the latest strike. The U.S.-based activist group Sea Shepherd, which sends vessels to confront the Japanese fleet each year, said a small hole was torn in the hull of its ship, but it was above the water line and the vessel was not in danger of sinking.

Sea Shepherd founder Captain Paul Watson said by satellite telephone that the Japanese ship rammed the Bob Barker — named after the U.S. game show host who donated millions to buy it for Sea Shepherd — as it blocked the slipway of the Japanese fleet's factory ship.

Watson's claim that the Bob Barker was deliberately hit could not be independently verified.

Japanese Fisheries Agency official Takashi Mori said officials were trying to confirm details of a reported clash.

Saturday's collision was the second this year between a Sea Shepherd boat and the Japanese fleet.

On Jan. 6, a Japanese whaler struck Sea Shepherd's high-tech speed boat Ady Gil and sheared off its nose. The Bob Barker then came to rescue the crew of the Ady Gil, which sank a day later.

Sea Shepherd and the whalers have faced off in Antarctic waters for the past few years over Japan's annual whale hunt, with each side accusing the other of acting in increasingly dangerous ways.

Sea Shepherd activists try to block the whalers from firing harpoons, and they dangle ropes in the water to try to snarl the Japanese ships' propellers. They also hurl packets of stinking rancid butter at their rivals. The whalers have responded by firing water cannons and sonar devices meant to disorient the activists. Collisions have occurred occasionally.

Japan aims to take hundreds of whales each year under a program that is allowed despite the international moratorium on killing whales because it is done in the name of science. Critics say the scientific program is a front for commercial whaling, and much of the meat is eaten.

On Saturday, the Bob Barker found the whaling fleet for the first time since the time of the Ady Gil clash, Watson said.

The Bob Barker took up a position behind the Nisshin Maru — the Japanese factory ship where dead whales are hauled aboard and butchered — so the four harpoon vessels could not reach it, he said.

"The harpoon ships started circling like sharks," Watson told The Associated Press from his ship, the Steve Irwin. "They were making near passes to the stern and the bow of the Bob Barker, then the Yushin Maru 3 intentionally rammed the Bob Barker."

The Bob Barker sustained a 3-ft. long, 4-inch wide (1-meter long, 10-centimeter) gash in its hull. Welders aboard the ship were already working on patching the hole, and the Bob Barker would resume its pursuit of the whalers, Watson said.

Video shot from the Bob Barker and released by Sea Shepherd shows the two ships side by side moving quickly through the water. The ships come closer together and the Japanese ship then appears to turn away, but its stern swings sharply toward the Bob Barker. The collision is obscured by spray, but a loud clanging noise can be heard before the vessels separate.

Watson said the Yushin Maru 3 appeared to stop moving after the collision and had not been seen by the Bob Barker's crew to have moved since, suggesting it also may have been damaged.

The governments of Australia and New Zealand, which have responsibility for maritime rescue in the area where the hunt is usually conducted, say the fight between the two sides is becoming increasingly dangerous and have repeatedly urged them to tone it down.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,584 … latestnews
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
HollisHurlbut
Member
+51|6139
From the video it's pretty much impossible to tell which vessel was doing what, though the Japanese vessel was the only one that attempted to avoid a collision.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6364|Escea

That research ship in the AP picture looks like the one the Sea Shepard ship swung into in an earlier vid.
ROGUEDD
BF2s. A Liberal Gang of Faggots.
+452|5530|Fuck this.
Oops they did it again
Make X-meds a full member, for the sake of 15 year old anal gangbang porn watchers everywhere!
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6816|Canberra, AUS
i appreciate they have good intentions but it really is time to back the fuck off before someone gets killed.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
1stSFOD-Delta
Mike "The Spooge Gobbler" Morales
+376|6120|Blue Mountain State
"The harpoon ships started circling like sharks," Watson told The Associated Press from his ship, the Steve Irwin. "They were making near passes to the stern and the bow of the Bob Barker, then the Yushin Maru 3 intentionally rammed the Bob Barker."
good. it'd been better if the japanese ships would shoot these assholes with the harpoons.
https://www.itwirx.com/other/hksignature.jpg

Baba Booey
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6294|what

The Japanese are only carrying out scientific research after all.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png

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