Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6703|67.222.138.85
You can get somebody's version of practically anything going on anywhere in the world within seconds. It's easy, to some degree it's interesting, and it's viewed as a good thing to be in the loop. It's difficult to see why tuning in to the news for half an hour every morning would be a bad thing both from a micro and a macro perspective.

What does being informed do for you? It gives you something to talk about on the bus, and...well that's about it. Very, very rarely does something in your life change only because you know about it. There is no cat in a box that lives or dies based on your accurate knowledge of the happenings of the world. Nations will still go to war, schools will still be shot up by their students, and politicians will still be giving speeches. It's just not relevant for you to know about any of it. Ignorance would change your daily life insomuch as you have to find some other use for your time than to watch and/or argue about the news.

What good is a partially informed populace? Invariably people will get a partial and skewed telling of the story, and cannot possibly be expected to form a valid opinion based on the evidence - much less express an inter or intranationally relevant opinion. How much better could a partially informed partial people be compared to an ignorantly objective one? Seems like a pretty solid coin toss either way to me.

So what, people are supposed to be blind to everything around them? No, it's just that the concrete is not nearly important as we make it out to be for most of us. The ideas that eventually form the concrete circumstances are what is important - natural laws of human behavior that are every bit as real as the laws of physics, if more difficult to accurately analyze. Looking at the base cause of events is important, not their inevitable outcome. Asimov wrote about a science where mathematics could be used on large populations to predict future events; we may not have it down to a science, but it's not difficult to see a chain of astoundingly simple causes and effects if one is willing to go deep enough to look for it. Reacting on the present in context of the future is a lot better than reacting on the past in context of the present.
mcminty
Moderating your content for the Australian Govt.
+879|6718|Sydney, Australia
Interesting read, I assume you wrote it?
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6703|67.222.138.85
If I didn't write it there would be a source.

weak.
mcminty
Moderating your content for the Australian Govt.
+879|6718|Sydney, Australia

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

If I didn't write it there would be a source.

weak.
Touche.

What's the discussion question?
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6646

Taking the bus is for hippies and paedophiles. Are you a paedophile FM?
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6703|67.222.138.85
If you read something that is probably very contrary to your point of view and have nothing to say about it, then there isn't anything to discuss.

and I don't understand what ghetto is making a joke at in the least
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6807|Nårvei

FM is back from School it seems, he always rambles like this when he's had a good day at school

How can you say following the news can't have an impact on you?

Haven't millions of school kids around the world adjusted their thoughts and behaviour concerning school shootings amongst others?

Thought experiment: It's election day and you are going to vote for the first time, how does the news have an impact on your choice, would your opinion have been less bias if there was no news broadcasted 24/7?

Does an uninformed crowd behave differently with or without news?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Buckles
Cheeky Keen
+329|6553|Kent, UK
I think FM is right. Close/lock D&ST.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6671|Canberra, AUS
"Reacting on the present in context of the future is a lot better than reacting on the past in context of the present."

That's a nice line, very apt.

I once heard someone say... "The most dangerous people in the world are those who don't care." Apathy is the bane of democracy.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6713
Its all propaganda in some form or another.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6703|67.222.138.85

Varegg wrote:

How can you say following the news can't have an impact on you?

Haven't millions of school kids around the world adjusted their thoughts and behaviour concerning school shootings amongst others?

Thought experiment: It's election day and you are going to vote for the first time, how does the news have an impact on your choice, would your opinion have been less bias if there was no news broadcasted 24/7?

Does an uninformed crowd behave differently with or without news?
The impact is completely superficial. You might think there is a change, but how much can it really possibly change how you live your daily life?

Uhh, no? At least I know I didn't. I don't know how you could change in regards to school shootings. If it truly bothered me then I would have brought a gun to school, I don't know what else you could do about it.

---

The election would be less biased period, less biased because of the media and less biased towards the better candidate (assuming you can tell such a thing through a campaign and assuming such a thing exists - big ifs). It would be more of a 50/50 dice roll and less of a dice roll with trick die.

Why would you want to vote for someone based on what they say they will do? It's far too easy to lie and even then it applies only in x circumstance. Wouldn't it be much better to vote for someone based on their character and values? You could extrapolate what the candidate would do in x circumstance, but also in y and z unknown circumstances. Our world is one of constantly changing circumstances and of new problems arising daily. To elect someone based on their contrived responses to the issues of the world on November 8 is pretty absurd. Granted there will be some error in judge of character, but how could it possibly be worse than what we have now?

Spark wrote:

I once heard someone say... "The most dangerous people in the world are those who don't care." Apathy is the bane of democracy.
Poor votes are the bane of democracy. Whether they are arrived at through apathy or misdirected interest is irrelevant.
13rin
Member
+977|6476
Man.  I thought this thread was about the big O...
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6807|Nårvei

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Varegg wrote:

How can you say following the news can't have an impact on you?

Haven't millions of school kids around the world adjusted their thoughts and behaviour concerning school shootings amongst others?

Thought experiment: It's election day and you are going to vote for the first time, how does the news have an impact on your choice, would your opinion have been less bias if there was no news broadcasted 24/7?

Does an uninformed crowd behave differently with or without news?
The impact is completely superficial. You might think there is a change, but how much can it really possibly change how you live your daily life?

Uhh, no? At least I know I didn't. I don't know how you could change in regards to school shootings. If it truly bothered me then I would have brought a gun to school, I don't know what else you could do about it.

---

The election would be less biased period, less biased because of the media and less biased towards the better candidate (assuming you can tell such a thing through a campaign and assuming such a thing exists - big ifs). It would be more of a 50/50 dice roll and less of a dice roll with trick die.

Why would you want to vote for someone based on what they say they will do? It's far too easy to lie and even then it applies only in x circumstance. Wouldn't it be much better to vote for someone based on their character and values? You could extrapolate what the candidate would do in x circumstance, but also in y and z unknown circumstances. Our world is one of constantly changing circumstances and of new problems arising daily. To elect someone based on their contrived responses to the issues of the world on November 8 is pretty absurd. Granted there will be some error in judge of character, but how could it possibly be worse than what we have now?

Spark wrote:

I once heard someone say... "The most dangerous people in the world are those who don't care." Apathy is the bane of democracy.
Poor votes are the bane of democracy. Whether they are arrived at through apathy or misdirected interest is irrelevant.
You mistake most people of being above average intelligence I see ... there are so many stupid people it's scary and most of those stupid people are totally unable to make up their own opinion aka they rely entirely upon the news to shape it ...

And without knowing I bet the daily behaviour of students living in areas that have had school shooting is different before and after the incident, more suspicious towards other students and the community in general ... both from the shooting itself and from the news covering the incidents.

And lastly ... poor votes and people that don't vote are a part of democracy, not the bane of democracy ... so you are both wrong!
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6671|Canberra, AUS
And lastly ... poor votes and people that don't vote are a part of democracy, not the bane of democracy ... so you are both wrong!
Democracy will not die a glorious fighting death. If it dies it will die a quiet death marked by no one as it will only die if no one cares enough any more to vote with their brain.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6703|67.222.138.85

Varegg wrote:

You mistake most people of being above average intelligence I see ... there are so many stupid people it's scary and most of those stupid people are totally unable to make up their own opinion aka they rely entirely upon the news to shape it ...

And without knowing I bet the daily behaviour of students living in areas that have had school shooting is different before and after the incident, more suspicious towards other students and the community in general ... both from the shooting itself and from the news covering the incidents.

And lastly ... poor votes and people that don't vote are a part of democracy, not the bane of democracy ... so you are both wrong!
No, I just recognize that this group of people is not very influential because of their lack of conviction. Their media-shaped opinion is only marginally relevant every election cycle.

How long could that last? A week? Two weeks? People get on with their lives very quickly, that's just the way it has to be.

You can both be a part of something and be detrimental to it at the same time very easily. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Morpheus
This shit still going?
+508|5996|The Mitten
But.... but....
Fox New's slogan is "Fair & Balanced"!
How can they be wrong!
EE (hats
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6618|London, England
Most people like to know things, whether it affects them enough to actually 'see' for themselves or not. It's almost just human nature to want to be kept informed on what's going on. Or you could say, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who deliberately does not want to know anything.

And yeah, at the end of the day, people never really get the whole story, that's a fact of life. But, you ask what good is a partially informed populace, why does it matter? What? Suddenly you need everything to conform to your ideals and if something brings no good, to your eyes, suddenly it has absolutely no meaning? That's a kinda fucked up attitude. The way you think of things as to whether it only brings good, or not, just doesn't seem right. You can boil it down to someone having the option of knowing, or not knowing. You're never going to stop people from wanting to know, and even you said it probably doesn't matter either way whether people know or not. So what's the big deal then?

Unless I've just totally misunderstood your post, and you were actually just talking about something else. I hate it when people do that, too much of that slimy metaphorical nonsense and not enough straight talking.
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6807|Nårvei

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Varegg wrote:

You mistake most people of being above average intelligence I see ... there are so many stupid people it's scary and most of those stupid people are totally unable to make up their own opinion aka they rely entirely upon the news to shape it ...

And without knowing I bet the daily behaviour of students living in areas that have had school shooting is different before and after the incident, more suspicious towards other students and the community in general ... both from the shooting itself and from the news covering the incidents.

And lastly ... poor votes and people that don't vote are a part of democracy, not the bane of democracy ... so you are both wrong!
No, I just recognize that this group of people is not very influential because of their lack of conviction. Their media-shaped opinion is only marginally relevant every election cycle.

How long could that last? A week? Two weeks? People get on with their lives very quickly, that's just the way it has to be.

You can both be a part of something and be detrimental to it at the same time very easily. The two are not mutually exclusive.
The election was just one example ... there are many more, too many for you to just leave it as a minor source of importance ...

For the ones that just watch the news for making small-talk on the bus I do agree though, their opinions will never amount to anything but being shallow narrowminded aka just reading the headlines and not going into dept of the material ...

Biggest problem with news 24/7 imo is that it really is to much to digest so you'll have to narrow down the seeking of dept into the material that really interests you while you of course are free to small-talk about the rest

Edit: Hence why I enjoy documentaries way more than the newschannels ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6703|67.222.138.85

Varegg wrote:

The election was just one example ... there are many more, too many for you to just leave it as a minor source of importance ...
This is exactly my point though. An election is the only instance where an individual's perception of the outside world has even a marginal influence on that outside world. Being informed about things like wars in the Middle East, the economic downturn, or anything else you might see on then nightly news or read in a newspaper doesn't influence those events at all. They are bigger than everyone who is just reading about them, not interacting with them. It wouldn't matter one bit if everyone did completely tune out to the news, because the whole idea that "knowledge is power" is a naive concept abused by the media to create an entire industry revolving around itself. They inform people because people need to be informed, and for no other reason. The consequences of the informed people are nil.

Mekstizzle wrote:

Most people like to know things, whether it affects them enough to actually 'see' for themselves or not. It's almost just human nature to want to be kept informed on what's going on. Or you could say, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who deliberately does not want to know anything.
This doesn't justify the desire to be kept informed.

Mekstizzle wrote:

You're never going to stop people from wanting to know, and even you said it probably doesn't matter either way whether people know or not. So what's the big deal then?
It doesn't affect world events either way, but I didn't say it doesn't matter either way. It is a massive waste of time and resources, but above all it
fosters a false sense of importance. If you make people truly understand the extent of their role then they will be more active in expanding their influence.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6618|London, England
Alot of things can be considered a complete waste of time and resources, we've evolved beyond the point of having to be otherwise. It's one of the things that sets us apart from most other living things. We're not an Ant Colony, and never will be
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6703|67.222.138.85

Mekstizzle wrote:

Alot of things can be considered a complete waste of time and resources, we've evolved beyond the point of having to be otherwise. It's one of the things that sets us apart from most other living things. We're not an Ant Colony, and never will be
Your definition of waste must be very different from mine then.

The arts are not a waste of time, sleep is not a waste of time, recreation is not a waste of time. What is a waste of time is an activity that has the only effect of necessitating itself.
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6807|Nårvei

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Alot of things can be considered a complete waste of time and resources, we've evolved beyond the point of having to be otherwise. It's one of the things that sets us apart from most other living things. We're not an Ant Colony, and never will be
Your definition of waste must be very different from mine then.

The arts are not a waste of time, sleep is not a waste of time, recreation is not a waste of time. What is a waste of time is an activity that has the only effect of necessitating itself.
Hm ... much like this discussion then
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6807|Nårvei

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Varegg wrote:

The election was just one example ... there are many more, too many for you to just leave it as a minor source of importance ...
This is exactly my point though. An election is the only instance where an individual's perception of the outside world has even a marginal influence on that outside world. Being informed about things like wars in the Middle East, the economic downturn, or anything else you might see on then nightly news or read in a newspaper doesn't influence those events at all. They are bigger than everyone who is just reading about them, not interacting with them. It wouldn't matter one bit if everyone did completely tune out to the news, because the whole idea that "knowledge is power" is a naive concept abused by the media to create an entire industry revolving around itself. They inform people because people need to be informed, and for no other reason. The consequences of the informed people are nil.
Okay ... elections is one we agree on ... how about news that sparks protest marches and demonstrations, that surely has some impact outside your own person does it not?

News about economics ... I know about an entire industry that can ruin an entire nation by its actions based on the news ... was close to happen just months ago ...

I get your point FM but I think you brush off the impact a little to lightly ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6102|eXtreme to the maX
Its important to know whats going on to take decisions and also to be able to keep politicians in line.
Is now a good time to join the Army?
Buy a Hummer?
Invest in Gold futures?

Or should we sit back and let govt decide whats right for us?

We must invade Iran cuz dey is evul mooslums - Duh Okeydokey.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-12-10 14:29:13)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6127|North Tonawanda, NY

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Most people like to know things, whether it affects them enough to actually 'see' for themselves or not. It's almost just human nature to want to be kept informed on what's going on. Or you could say, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who deliberately does not want to know anything.
This doesn't justify the desire to be kept informed.
Innate human curiosity isn't enough of a reason?

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

It wouldn't matter one bit if everyone did completely tune out to the news, because the whole idea that "knowledge is power" is a naive concept abused by the media to create an entire industry revolving around itself.
Scientia potentia est.  If you are uneducated, your ability to influence the world around you is greatly diminished.  If you are educated and have some idea of what is going on around you, all you need is will.

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