Announcement

Join us on Discord: https://discord.gg/nf43FxS
Discuss.
uziq
Member
+204|1972
militant islam was explicitly fascist. nazism gave it a political economy and made it an organising principle, rather than a set of clerical-theological doctrines.

it was the nazis that gave muslim nationalism its anti-semitism, conceiving of israel as the cause of all their troubles.

you can read this in most popular histories of islamic terrorism.

Last edited by uziq (2019-10-29 07:58:09)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,648|4626|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

it was the nazis that gave muslim nationalism its anti-semitism, conceiving of israel as the cause of all their troubles.
It wasn't a response to Zionism and the invasion of Arab lands and years of organised terrorist attacks by jews on arabs then?

you can read this in most popular histories of islamic terrorism.
You'll have no trouble providing unbiased sources then.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+204|1972
an unbiased source doesn’t exist to you, dilbert, because you think jews have poisoned the well.

you talk about the ‘arabs’ as if there’s been a pan-arab political movement from which radical islam sprung. total nonsense, of course. how many arab countries today extend a hand to palestine?

Last edited by uziq (2019-10-30 00:36:49)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,648|4626|eXtreme to the maX
Ah OK, so apart from revisionist jews and their re-writing of history you've got nothing.

Iraq, Libya, Syria and Libya extended a hand to Palestine - look what happened to them.
Iran is next.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+204|1972
i literally edited it out when i saw that the guy was jewish because i can't be bothered to argue over the meaning or validity of a book with someone who hasn't read it and will refute it because the author is a jew. if you can't see how far down the rabbithole you are with that thinking, then i can't help you. i tend to read books rather than look at their authors' foreskin.

fyi the guy has won both a macarthur genius fellowship and a guggenheim grant - two of the biggest awards that anyone in the cultural or academic sphere can be awarded in america. the book was published by a serious NY publishing house, and, given its hugely controversial content, was no doubt gone at by an army of fact-checkers and editorial staff. but no, it's jewish proganda and revisionism! luckily books have bibliographies and citations and you can apprise and accept/refute them as you please. that is, if you're not a crank.

ironically the book makes no real claims for israel or zionism, it's about the history of radical islam as a political entity, and a close study of the muslim brotherhood. the book's real ambit is that islam suffers from a deficiency of critical middle-class thinkers today, and supposed 'celebrated' moderates like tariq ramadan, who were feted by the west's universities as a 'good' muslim intellectual, are actually speaking two languages and inciting radicals. hardly zionist conspiracy theory, is it?

Last edited by uziq (2019-10-30 01:38:46)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,648|4626|eXtreme to the maX
Thats great and all, but if you're right there should be a plethora of experts without an agenda you'll be able to pull up.
By which I mean
- Not jews
- Not neo-cons
- Not Murdoch acolytes

Uzique wrote:

book's real ambit is that islam suffers from a deficient of critical middle-class thinkers today, and supposed 'celebrated' moderates like tariq ramadan, who were feted by the west's universities as a 'good' muslim intellectual, are actually speaking two languages and inciting radicals.
But what does it say about Nazi pamphlets being the root cause of enmity between the jews and the arabs, even though they post-date the enmity?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-10-30 01:33:13)

Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+204|1972
go read a book for once in your life. no one ever said that the nazis were the inventors of historic enmity between islam and jews (or christians, for that matter). it was about the organisation of an explicitly political, not to say totalitarian-fascist, brand of islam that conceived of itself as a political party. which very quickly led to an era of extremist terrorism and violence in the name of political, rather than theological, grounds. european fascism and anti-semitic thought as it was propagated by the nazis gave incipient movements in places like egypt an organizing basis.

the entire concept of nationalism and nationhood is an idea exported by 19th century europeans. islamic terrorism is political violence more than religious violence.

you're very much reading what you want to read because your understanding of history seems to be one grand brush-stroke in which 'jews and evangelicals are all trying to lead us towards their apocalypse'. not exactly deep reading, is it?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,648|4626|eXtreme to the maX
Would you be OK with a history of Trump written by a Fox News anchor?

Jews and evangelicals are leading us towards their apocalypse, there's not much doubt about it.
Why would the Australian PM be putting Israeli interests before Australian interests if that weren't the case?
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n … hite-house

We have nuts in the White House, nuts in the Lodge, and Israel has always been a Waco-esque holdout for nuts.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-10-30 01:50:28)

Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+204|1972
i mean, paul berman can be a bit of a gadly, but he is not a 'fox news anchor'.

he's also not a neo con: he was a vocal critic of bush?

a murdoch acolyte? what does that mean, he's published in a few papers owned by murdoch?

can't believe i'm even having to defend the character of a writer i don't even care about or have a stake in. it's just one of several popular history books published recently that cover that aspect of islamic terrorism's history.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,648|4626|eXtreme to the maX
I was talking in general terms, not specifically about Berman.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,648|4626|eXtreme to the maX

Paul Berman wrote:

I approved on principle the overthrow of Saddam

Paul Berman wrote:

(anti-Zionism that its) "true origin ... is anti-Semitism, the assumption that the Jews are the center of the world and therefore the center of the world's evil.
Think I've heard enough from this guy thanks.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+204|1972
what a meaningless post. you're talking in general terms about some hypothetical books that may or may not exist, written or not written by secretly pro-israeli zionist shills? i mean ... uuuuh ...
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,648|4626|eXtreme to the maX
Please find someone to support your argument who:
- Isn't jewish
- Isn't a neo-con
- Isn't a Murdoch acolyte

Paul Berman failed the first two tests.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+204|1972

Dilbert_X wrote:

Paul Berman wrote:

I approved on principle the overthrow of Saddam

Paul Berman wrote:

(anti-Zionism that its) "true origin ... is anti-Semitism, the assumption that the Jews are the center of the world and therefore the center of the world's evil.
Think I've heard enough from this guy thanks.
most well-meaning liberals supported the overthrowing of saddam. not exactly a radical position at the time. the new yorker were war hawks ffs. the second part of that sentence talks about him being explicitly anti-bush, so i'm not sure how you can paint him as a 'neo-con'.

does the second point bother you because it hits home? you do indeed think that 'jews are the center of the world and therefore the center of the world's evil'.

Last edited by uziq (2019-10-30 01:59:02)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,648|4626|eXtreme to the maX
Or can I quote Mein Kampf and the Teachings of the Elders of Zion as unbiased sources?
Epstein didn't kill himself
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,648|4626|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Paul Berman wrote:

I approved on principle the overthrow of Saddam

Paul Berman wrote:

(anti-Zionism that its) "true origin ... is anti-Semitism, the assumption that the Jews are the center of the world and therefore the center of the world's evil.
Think I've heard enough from this guy thanks.
most well-meaning liberals supported the overthrowing of saddam. not exactly a radical position at the time.
Based on garbage propaganda and supposed threats which never existed.

does the second point bother you because it hits home? you do indeed think that 'jews are the center of the world and therefore the center of the world's evil'.
No I think Zionism is the centre of the world's evil. Thats the split which you and everyone else tries to make.

"Oh, the Palestinians only object to Zionism because they're antisemitic. That they saw their parents and children murdered and had their homes bulldozed by the IDF is irrelevant, they just hate jews for no reason. Its an arab thing you know, and has been for centuries"

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-10-30 02:04:07)

Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+204|1972

Dilbert_X wrote:

Or can I quote Mein Kampf and the Teachings of the Elders of Zion as unbiased sources?
these books are published by academics, researchers and journalists. people who have to cite their sources. books that are edited. fact-checked.

i'm sorry that they have a fatally different interpretation to you, viz. not virulently hating jews, but to say that they are on the same order as 'teh teachings of the elders of zion', which is a proven forgery and would not withstand any academic scrutiny ... oh forget it.

i immediately regretted linking a jewish writer on the subject, and you've shown precisely why. well done.
Larssen
Member
+9|408

Dilbert_X wrote:

Please find someone to support your argument who:
- Isn't jewish
Dilbert, whether or not someone was born into a jewish family doesn't inform their political stance in adulthood. There's plenty people who are ethnically identified as jews but who consider themselves (a) atheist and (b) who are not die-hard supporters of Israel or the netanyahu government.

Your argument is akin to saying that all ethnically Chinese people cannot be trusted by the fact that they're Chinese.
uziq
Member
+204|1972
that is how dilbert does think.

i mean the fact the guy likens a published book, which i only raised as it was the first to come to my memory, as akin to linking the protocols of the elders of zion, says all you need to say. it's actually precisely part of the crisis in truth that we have nowadays, where people either cannot (or choose not to) discriminate between the credibility of information. we live in a world where people can equate books, even modest books of polemic that can be disagreed with and argued against, are dismissed as 'neo-con murdoch-propaganda'. even if an expert's credentials are sufficiently established -- you can just dismiss experts!!! it's so handy. even better if they are jewish.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,648|4626|eXtreme to the maX
His credentials were established by his supporting the removal of Saddam - not the removal of WMD, the removal of Saddam, and by his equating anti-Zionism with anti-semitism. So yes I'm fine with dismissing his opinions.

But yeah you can't trust a jew to write honestly or dispassionately about Israel-Palestine, there may be some but its easier and safer and more rigourous to simply find someone else.

Could we trust a catholic to write an honest history of the inquisition? Would it just be simpler to find a version written by a non-catholic?
Epstein didn't kill himself
Larssen
Member
+9|408

Dilbert_X wrote:

For the last 50 years at least the world has revolved around Israel and their nutty cult with its end-of-times agenda.
We can thank them for umpteen actual shooting wars and the creation of Arab/muslim terrorism.

Australia's current military priority? Enforcing sanctions on Iran so they can't be a potential threat to Israel - which they weren't going to be but Netanyahu needed to get re-elected so now we have warships in the Gulf again....
Your issue is that you start with a conclusion to then only find supporting evidence. No, world politics hasn't revolved around Israel at all. Definitely not in my continent, national news may bring up the topic of Israel a handful of times throughout the year. On the EU level, during my stint there we discussed Israel directly only a few times, mostly in the context of sanctions. The EU has been wanting to push for several resolutions against Israel for a very long time now with only the US being obstructionist. 'World politics' in our case was far more about Northern Africa, Turkey, Syria, Russia, trade with China, cooperation with the UN & NATO and our relationship with the US.

Perhaps you could make the argument that US politics revolves around Israel, in which case you'd be wrong again as the United States in its support for the country is simply upholding a long-standing policy steeped in its own national interest. Even Kissinger (a jew mind you) consistently advised those in power to ignore Israeli/jewish affairs if it wasn't in the national interest of the United States. The neoconservatives who emerged in the 80s did uphold Israel as a pivotal ally, but the most staunch neoconservatives still considered the Bush administration (their very peak years) as not pro-Israel enough. Evidently policy still deviated from actually revolving around that country.

Has politics in the Middle East orbited Israel? It's undeniable they have a central position in many regional issues but they are also separate from many more. The rivalry between regional players, the internal instability in many middle eastern states, the war on terror, the gulf wars, all of them have very little fundamental involvement from Israel. The Saudis & Iranians aren't exactly basing their foreign policies solely on whatever happens in the Levant. Saddam had also always been much more concerned with Iran than anything Israel was doing. Egypt being a direct neighbour does maintain consistently tenuous relations with that country, though at present it's much more focused on Northern Africa than the Palestinians & Israelis.

It's not that world politics revolves around Israel Dilbert, it's that any time we discuss politics you make it about Israel. Whenever the most vague or far-fetched link could be made to anything Jerusalem, you will jump at the opportunity and no longer see anything else. Your years of obsession with this issue has even made it get to a point where apparently Jewishness is a reason for you to distrust someone. It's pretty disgusting to me that someone else would have to find books on the Middle East by academics who are not ethnically jewish for you to read because you won't bother with anything a jew writes.

I'll also recommend to you the following documentary so that you may expand your narrow worldview a little:

Last edited by Larssen (2019-10-30 11:58:59)

uziq
Member
+204|1972
that's a very good documentary (is it the multi-part one?) but i don't think dilbert could stomach 3-4 hours of a subtitled documentary in hebrew.
coke
Aye up duck!
+437|5229|England. Stoke
why do the Jews even need Israel, when then are living rent free in Dilbert's head 24/7
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,648|4626|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:

Your issue is that you start with a conclusion to then only find supporting evidence.
Nope.

Perhaps you could make the argument that US politics revolves around Israel, in which case you'd be wrong again as the United States in its support for the country is simply upholding a long-standing policy steeped in its own national interest.
What national interest is that?

t's pretty disgusting to me that someone else would have to find books on the Middle East by academics who are not ethnically jewish for you to read because you won't bother with anything a jew writes.
Would you trust a history of the holocaust written by a card-carrying Nazi?
A history of the gulags written by a member of the communist party?
Sorry, I'm not going to trust a history of Israel-Palestine written by a neo-con jew.

The idea that Arab nationalism and terrorism was going to happen with or without Israel terrorising the Palestinians and stealing their nation is absurd.
What next? Irish nationalism and terrorism just grew organically out of nothing, the Irish being predisposed to violence and murder, it was just bad luck the blameless British caught the hot potato?

If this idea is widely accepted then there'll be no trouble finding multiple non-jewish authors who put their name to it.

I'll also recommend to you the following documentary so that you may expand your narrow worldview a little:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdMjr8cuEy8
Thanks, I saw it when it came out.

Favourite quote: "You can't throw a stone in Palestine without hitting a terrorist"

Best example of even-handedness:
- If a Palestinian commits a terrorist attack its OK to handcuff him then beat him to death, then bulldoze his family's house.
- If an Israeli commits a terrorist attack then he should be asked nicely not to do it again

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-11-05 04:55:16)

Epstein didn't kill himself
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,648|4626|eXtreme to the maX
As for Australian politics, why are multiple former Australian politicians being hosted by 'Zionist Friends of Australia'?
http://www.jwire.com.au/cocktail-recept … in-israel/

There's been a creeping push over the years to define Australia as a 'judeo-christian culture' whatever that means, when there's been no significant connection between the two countries or cultures.
President of the ZFA Jeremy Leibler described the delegation as a select group of Australians who have, during their illustrious careers, helped to build and reinforce the relationship between two countries, united by their common morality and ideals.
What common morality and ideals is that?

“In the various political portfolios they have held, across successive Australian governments of different political persuasions, each member of our delegation has made, and faithfully fulfilled, a commitment to the Australian Jewish community and to Israel.”
Sounds pretty weird TBH, why would Australian politicians be making 'a commitment to Israel'?
The muslim community here is a whole lot bigger and we don't see former politicians creeping after them. In fact our PM threw away a trade deal with Indonesia -  a nation of 200m people - over the location of our embassy in Israel. It also cost him a safe seat in Sydney.
Why is Israel - a trivial country on the other side of the world - always the priority, not our businesses, farmers, neighbouring countries etc?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-11-05 16:21:12)

Epstein didn't kill himself

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2020 Jeff Minard