You're wrong, look up Darwinism.Ty wrote:
It's not even exploitation, it's working the system. And it's cyclical too. When MacBeth has his degree and is paying tax from his income earned in part due to his government-supported degree he wil be paying for future MacBeths to get government support for their degrees.
Duh the point is Macbeth won't be earning enough to pay tax -> No tax dollars for the next Macbeth in line -> Macbeths as a species die out.Ty wrote:
Dude I've just written an essay on Darwinism, what's your point?
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-10-15 06:36:24)
Can I offer a solution of course I can, the problem is, my fuckin solution would require effort on the welfare recipients part. Can't fuckin' have any of that can you?AussieReaper wrote:
Can you offer any solution to those who genuinely need this assistance, or do you just hate welfare because people like Macbeth think it's in their benefit to exploit it and do so?lowing wrote:
The man has a choice, pay his own way, or become poor (a failure) and let the govt. pay his way. What would most people do, it is obvious.
This is what I mean by rewarding failure and punishing success, also govt. dependency. It is clear.
Because it isn't free. Just because you don't have to pay for it does not mean it does not have to be paid for.NooBesT wrote:
What's wrong with free education?
Ohhh Lowing /facepalm. Here we go again first you polute up the thread about garbage "I hate all liberals" because there were a couple of friendly jabs about spelling. Hardly worth a page of spewing crap.lowing wrote:
Because it isn't free. Just because you don't have to pay for it does not mean it does not have to be paid for.NooBesT wrote:
What's wrong with free education?
It would appear, liberals are have tossed off personal responability so much, they actually think everyfuckin'thing is now "free".
all of your bullshit can be answered with one sentence.Diesel_dyk wrote:
Ohhh Lowing /facepalm. Here we go again first you polute up the thread about garbage "I hate all liberals" because there were a couple of friendly jabs about spelling. Hardly worth a page of spewing crap.lowing wrote:
Because it isn't free. Just because you don't have to pay for it does not mean it does not have to be paid for.NooBesT wrote:
What's wrong with free education?
It would appear, liberals are have tossed off personal responability so much, they actually think everyfuckin'thing is now "free".
Then you come back to worn out I hate welfare crap. This has lead very nicely into the point I was making in an early thread
1. you yourself receive govt paid training, correct? sure you put in your time and "paid" for that training with service.
2. Well there is absolutely no difference between that and a person receiving govt assistance or govt student loans or grants or whatever where
a. they can get their training and become more beneficial to society, AND
b. they might even get into a higher tax bracket so the govt would be gaining increased tax revenue OR
c. it could be that govt policy sees fit that society and the economy need a well educated and well trained workforce.
So you see there is a type of govt service in being a good productive taxpayer. And there is a recognition that without such programs that society would be worse off, just like the military would be worse off if recruiting were not incentivized with "free training."
So while you rant and rave about welfare this and welfare that, and people taking advantage of the system, I'm going to point out the fact that that is exactly what you did because its only a matter of policy that you received your govt paid training, it did not have to be that way you could have paid for your training at a tech school but you chose to path with free training because it was available right? So you took advatage of a program that was available to you. BTW how much does it cost to go to a tech school to become the type of mechanic that you are. I bet a real fiscal conservative hard ass could rightly ask why shouldn't you have had to pay for your training at the same time they say govt subsidies for post secondary education and welfare are all wastes on taxpayer money.
Since I paid for my post secondary education, here is my best Fake Conservative whine "I know I had to pay for my post secondary education, so why should you have gotten free training?"
Now I know you want to write about "how dare you attack me I did my time" "how dare you attack the service of all those brave men and women over there in Iraq" But don't, I'm not attacking your service, I'm not attacking the necessity to train military personal. what I am doing is pointing out is the shaky moral foundation that you have so strongly planted your "I hate welfare" soap box. The very thin line you have drawn to expalin your benefit as being more worthy than a benefit to someone else can be best summed up in a simple moral "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." If govt money was good enough for you, its good enough for Macbeth, education of the youth is a benefit to society. Same with food stamps and welfare, if it keeps kids fed so that we don't have all sorts of problems later then it goes a long way to ensuring that the future generation will be productive taxpaying citizens rather than drains on the economy.
Now, I am all for fiscal conservatism, low taxes and smaller govt are all great, but the way I see it when the GOP is in power we get corporate welfare, large monay going to the military industrial complex and welfare for the rich. When the Dems are in, its welfare for the poor, education money, healthcare. IMO both parties are hopelessly corrupt, and I fail to see any difference between the two when its the taxpayers who are footing the bill. So until there is a significant change towards cleaning this whole mess up on both sides, I see nothing wrong with alleviating the suffering of the poor and protecting our future citizens. I do however call into question those who would want to start the clean up of DC by starting with the poor when we should be starting with those who practice graft, patronage and corruption at the highest levels of govt.
To Macbeth
Take care of yourself first. Do what you need to do. Think through it logically and crunch the numbers, don't try and be noble and forgo all funding options based on some elses ideas of how the world should be ordered because in my estimation they are probably a hypocritical POS. My advice, University is a cool place to be, so enjoy it, get in and get your piece of paper as fast as you can. My first degree I got it in three years by going through the summers. not really recommended but it saved me a lot of money.
Last edited by lowing (2009-10-15 10:50:00)
And you sir can plant you soap box elsewhere, might I suggest in front of a mirror, because for all your BS you are just like everyone else, you take the money when its in your self interest and to your advantage.lowing wrote:
all of your bullshit can be answered with one sentence.Diesel_dyk wrote:
Ohhh Lowing /facepalm. Here we go again first you polute up the thread about garbage "I hate all liberals" because there were a couple of friendly jabs about spelling. Hardly worth a page of spewing crap.lowing wrote:
Because it isn't free. Just because you don't have to pay for it does not mean it does not have to be paid for.
It would appear, liberals are have tossed off personal responability so much, they actually think everyfuckin'thing is now "free".
Then you come back to worn out I hate welfare crap. This has lead very nicely into the point I was making in an early thread
1. you yourself receive govt paid training, correct? sure you put in your time and "paid" for that training with service.
2. Well there is absolutely no difference between that and a person receiving govt assistance or govt student loans or grants or whatever where
a. they can get their training and become more beneficial to society, AND
b. they might even get into a higher tax bracket so the govt would be gaining increased tax revenue OR
c. it could be that govt policy sees fit that society and the economy need a well educated and well trained workforce.
So you see there is a type of govt service in being a good productive taxpayer. And there is a recognition that without such programs that society would be worse off, just like the military would be worse off if recruiting were not incentivized with "free training."
So while you rant and rave about welfare this and welfare that, and people taking advantage of the system, I'm going to point out the fact that that is exactly what you did because its only a matter of policy that you received your govt paid training, it did not have to be that way you could have paid for your training at a tech school but you chose to path with free training because it was available right? So you took advatage of a program that was available to you. BTW how much does it cost to go to a tech school to become the type of mechanic that you are. I bet a real fiscal conservative hard ass could rightly ask why shouldn't you have had to pay for your training at the same time they say govt subsidies for post secondary education and welfare are all wastes on taxpayer money.
Since I paid for my post secondary education, here is my best Fake Conservative whine "I know I had to pay for my post secondary education, so why should you have gotten free training?"
Now I know you want to write about "how dare you attack me I did my time" "how dare you attack the service of all those brave men and women over there in Iraq" But don't, I'm not attacking your service, I'm not attacking the necessity to train military personal. what I am doing is pointing out is the shaky moral foundation that you have so strongly planted your "I hate welfare" soap box. The very thin line you have drawn to expalin your benefit as being more worthy than a benefit to someone else can be best summed up in a simple moral "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." If govt money was good enough for you, its good enough for Macbeth, education of the youth is a benefit to society. Same with food stamps and welfare, if it keeps kids fed so that we don't have all sorts of problems later then it goes a long way to ensuring that the future generation will be productive taxpaying citizens rather than drains on the economy.
Now, I am all for fiscal conservatism, low taxes and smaller govt are all great, but the way I see it when the GOP is in power we get corporate welfare, large monay going to the military industrial complex and welfare for the rich. When the Dems are in, its welfare for the poor, education money, healthcare. IMO both parties are hopelessly corrupt, and I fail to see any difference between the two when its the taxpayers who are footing the bill. So until there is a significant change towards cleaning this whole mess up on both sides, I see nothing wrong with alleviating the suffering of the poor and protecting our future citizens. I do however call into question those who would want to start the clean up of DC by starting with the poor when we should be starting with those who practice graft, patronage and corruption at the highest levels of govt.
To Macbeth
Take care of yourself first. Do what you need to do. Think through it logically and crunch the numbers, don't try and be noble and forgo all funding options based on some elses ideas of how the world should be ordered because in my estimation they are probably a hypocritical POS. My advice, University is a cool place to be, so enjoy it, get in and get your piece of paper as fast as you can. My first degree I got it in three years by going through the summers. not really recommended but it saved me a lot of money.
Working for a living, regardless for who, is not fuckin' welfare, no matter how desperately you need it to be, to form some resemblance of an argument.
interesting concept AussieReaper wish it was like that here in (U.S.), u got to start paying off your loans 6 months after you are done with school, for some loans you can defer the payment, for others you must apply the forbearance but they charge you interest rates which is a bitch which is the situation Im in, plus Im back in school for my Masters ......AussieReaper wrote:
Not sure how hard is will be to claim on all those. We're given rent assistance here if we move out and have to juggle a low income job and/or student fee's. But our major student fees (mines about $30,000 AU) don't get charged until we're actually earning a decent income and even then it's interest free with just a small percentage of your pay taken.Macbeth wrote:
The U.S. Federal ov will put up around $3000 per semester, plus NJ will put up some money too. Rent assistance plus welfare and other state and local incentives.AussieReaper wrote:
You're government assistance will not pay for $40,000 in student fees. You'll get some rent assistance. Help with paying utilities. That should be about it. You're better off not exploiting the system, since it's not going to really benefit you anyway.
Also, do you need that $40,000 up front or to be paid off + interests at the end? How does your student fees work in the US?
But $3000 for a 6 month period isn't going to go far if you're not living with your parents and have to pay rent, food, utilities, transport, textbooks, list goes on...
Well before it was any and everyone who had anything to do with the govt. was on welfare, and now you are trying to tone it down with anyone who received govt. training.Diesel_dyk wrote:
And you sir can plant you soap box elsewhere, might I suggest in front of a mirror, because for all your BS you are just like everyone else, you take the money when its in your self interest and to your advantage.lowing wrote:
all of your bullshit can be answered with one sentence.Diesel_dyk wrote:
Ohhh Lowing /facepalm. Here we go again first you polute up the thread about garbage "I hate all liberals" because there were a couple of friendly jabs about spelling. Hardly worth a page of spewing crap.
Then you come back to worn out I hate welfare crap. This has lead very nicely into the point I was making in an early thread
1. you yourself receive govt paid training, correct? sure you put in your time and "paid" for that training with service.
2. Well there is absolutely no difference between that and a person receiving govt assistance or govt student loans or grants or whatever where
a. they can get their training and become more beneficial to society, AND
b. they might even get into a higher tax bracket so the govt would be gaining increased tax revenue OR
c. it could be that govt policy sees fit that society and the economy need a well educated and well trained workforce.
So you see there is a type of govt service in being a good productive taxpayer. And there is a recognition that without such programs that society would be worse off, just like the military would be worse off if recruiting were not incentivized with "free training."
So while you rant and rave about welfare this and welfare that, and people taking advantage of the system, I'm going to point out the fact that that is exactly what you did because its only a matter of policy that you received your govt paid training, it did not have to be that way you could have paid for your training at a tech school but you chose to path with free training because it was available right? So you took advatage of a program that was available to you. BTW how much does it cost to go to a tech school to become the type of mechanic that you are. I bet a real fiscal conservative hard ass could rightly ask why shouldn't you have had to pay for your training at the same time they say govt subsidies for post secondary education and welfare are all wastes on taxpayer money.
Since I paid for my post secondary education, here is my best Fake Conservative whine "I know I had to pay for my post secondary education, so why should you have gotten free training?"
Now I know you want to write about "how dare you attack me I did my time" "how dare you attack the service of all those brave men and women over there in Iraq" But don't, I'm not attacking your service, I'm not attacking the necessity to train military personal. what I am doing is pointing out is the shaky moral foundation that you have so strongly planted your "I hate welfare" soap box. The very thin line you have drawn to expalin your benefit as being more worthy than a benefit to someone else can be best summed up in a simple moral "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." If govt money was good enough for you, its good enough for Macbeth, education of the youth is a benefit to society. Same with food stamps and welfare, if it keeps kids fed so that we don't have all sorts of problems later then it goes a long way to ensuring that the future generation will be productive taxpaying citizens rather than drains on the economy.
Now, I am all for fiscal conservatism, low taxes and smaller govt are all great, but the way I see it when the GOP is in power we get corporate welfare, large monay going to the military industrial complex and welfare for the rich. When the Dems are in, its welfare for the poor, education money, healthcare. IMO both parties are hopelessly corrupt, and I fail to see any difference between the two when its the taxpayers who are footing the bill. So until there is a significant change towards cleaning this whole mess up on both sides, I see nothing wrong with alleviating the suffering of the poor and protecting our future citizens. I do however call into question those who would want to start the clean up of DC by starting with the poor when we should be starting with those who practice graft, patronage and corruption at the highest levels of govt.
To Macbeth
Take care of yourself first. Do what you need to do. Think through it logically and crunch the numbers, don't try and be noble and forgo all funding options based on some elses ideas of how the world should be ordered because in my estimation they are probably a hypocritical POS. My advice, University is a cool place to be, so enjoy it, get in and get your piece of paper as fast as you can. My first degree I got it in three years by going through the summers. not really recommended but it saved me a lot of money.
Working for a living, regardless for who, is not fuckin' welfare, no matter how desperately you need it to be, to form some resemblance of an argument.
Which I guess I can now simply refer to as "Lowing's inconvenient truth"
BTW I wasn't talking about you being paid for working, nice try to sidestep the point though. I was talking about the free training you received at taxpayers expense. Taxpayer paid free training, taxpayer subsidized education, taxpayer subsidized education loans etc etc, there is no difference.
But some how one taxpayer paid program that improves the workforce is welfare and the other taxpayer paid program that improves the work force is not. Sir, I suggest you take a long hard look in the mirror before spouting anymore vitriol.
I have no problem being dashed upon the rocks of hard truth, the problem is, you are not doing the dashing, you are desperate and wanting. Your desire to humilate me, belittle me or show me to be on welfare so badly, you have gone as far as to re-invent the meaning of welfare. It is almost laughable.Diesel_dyk wrote:
OJT, nice, now there is a great socialist program. So you got paid to be trained, wow that's nice I wish that I got paid while I got a free secondary education.
If you don't like the truth, don't complain to me about it because you will get no where with me, I'm the rock that hypocrits crash themselves upon, and I'm more than happy to continue pointing it out to you.
To me your advice on financing a post secondary education isn't worth spit, I'm just pointing out to others why it isn't worth spit.
Last edited by lowing (2009-10-15 16:27:07)
I'd have thought the welfare recipients effort would have been focused upon their higher education, which needs quite a lot of effort. I suppose you'd imagine it quite simple to juggle living expenses, a full time job and full time university study?lowing wrote:
Can I offer a solution of course I can, the problem is, my fuckin solution would require effort on the welfare recipients part. Can't fuckin' have any of that can you?AussieReaper wrote:
Can you offer any solution to those who genuinely need this assistance, or do you just hate welfare because people like Macbeth think it's in their benefit to exploit it and do so?lowing wrote:
The man has a choice, pay his own way, or become poor (a failure) and let the govt. pay his way. What would most people do, it is obvious.
This is what I mean by rewarding failure and punishing success, also govt. dependency. It is clear.
Not amazingly difficult. Been doing it for nearly a year now.AussieReaper wrote:
I suppose you'd imagine it quite simple to juggle living expenses, a full time job and full time university study?
You're living at home.Macbeth wrote:
Not amazingly difficult. Been doing it for nearly a year now.AussieReaper wrote:
I suppose you'd imagine it quite simple to juggle living expenses, a full time job and full time university study?
Also I'm pretty surprised some of you thought I was seriously going to do this and not just making an example.
Yup, Dilbert even mentioned it.Spark wrote:
I think he's doing a polisci degree?
Here's an idea. this banter back and forth ignores the fact that Macbeth was asking for advice.lowing wrote:
I have no problem being dashed upon the rocks of hard truth, the problem is, you are not doing the dashing, you are desperate and wanting. Your desire to humilate me, belittle me or show me to be on welfare so badly, you have gone as far as to re-invent the meaning of welfare. It is almost laughable.Diesel_dyk wrote:
OJT, nice, now there is a great socialist program. So you got paid to be trained, wow that's nice I wish that I got paid while I got a free secondary education.
If you don't like the truth, don't complain to me about it because you will get no where with me, I'm the rock that hypocrits crash themselves upon, and I'm more than happy to continue pointing it out to you.
To me your advice on financing a post secondary education isn't worth spit, I'm just pointing out to others why it isn't worth spit.
OJT is also not welfare, it is a nessessary tool for all occupations. I mean of course unless you are born knowing how to fight fires, solve murders, perform open heart surgery etc....
Don't you see how fucked up your argument is?
FFS I was making a scenario and a point, I can manage to pay off my student loans without a problem and still have cash left over.. Jesus Christ.Diesel_dyk wrote:
Here's an idea. this banter back and forth ignores the fact that Macbeth was asking for advice.lowing wrote:
I have no problem being dashed upon the rocks of hard truth, the problem is, you are not doing the dashing, you are desperate and wanting. Your desire to humilate me, belittle me or show me to be on welfare so badly, you have gone as far as to re-invent the meaning of welfare. It is almost laughable.Diesel_dyk wrote:
OJT, nice, now there is a great socialist program. So you got paid to be trained, wow that's nice I wish that I got paid while I got a free secondary education.
If you don't like the truth, don't complain to me about it because you will get no where with me, I'm the rock that hypocrits crash themselves upon, and I'm more than happy to continue pointing it out to you.
To me your advice on financing a post secondary education isn't worth spit, I'm just pointing out to others why it isn't worth spit.
OJT is also not welfare, it is a nessessary tool for all occupations. I mean of course unless you are born knowing how to fight fires, solve murders, perform open heart surgery etc....
Don't you see how fucked up your argument is?
Too much has been written already that hijacks his thread... if you want to start another thread I will be happy to meet you there.
In the mean time how about you bring your considerable knowledge to bear on the OP and provide Macbeth with some meaningful advice that doesn't involve some vile anti-liberal everyone else is lazy and the world sucks etc etc. which sad to say is pretty much how you ruin every thread you post on... so how about surprising us all and posting some good advice for Macbeth.
Macbeth if you can live at home, its a cheap place to live, sucks as far as the social life goes, but then again a lot of students' have poor grades from too many distractions when they first move out on their own. If you can stay at home.
Also, if you plan on post graduate or professional school, you should really try not to work in order to have more time to study and get top grades... its the one way you can be sure to put your most competative foot forward when trying to secure a seat in a professinal school. IMO its worth the extra student loans in undergrad if it helps you get a seat at the professional school of your choice. FYI loans become much more available once you are in a professional school.
