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Poll

What should we do?

Nothing, leave it as it is.33%33% - 33
Go in, dismantle all the goverments, burn it down.7%7% - 7
Deport everyone to Madagascar.3%3% - 3
Fuck 'em, kill every last one of them. Nukem.42%42% - 42
Bake them cookies and hope they leave us alone.13%13% - 13
Total: 98
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|5889|Dallas
Am I the only person that is SICK of hearing about all the stupid shit that the people in the middle east do on a day to day basis?!  I'm so tired of it, what is wrong with these people??  Here's a list of the top 10 things that I'm sick of hearing:

10. Osama Bin Laden made a video tape.  Let me guess....he said he was going to attack the US soon.  Yeah, we know, he said that in the last 10 tapes he made.  Shut the fuck up and do something or stop making these shitty video tapes with your old ass 1989 Canon Video Recorder.  You can carry around a dialysis machine but not a camera that’s worth a shit?  No wonder you live in a cave.

9. Syria says they didn't do it.  Bullshit, yes you did.  Hariff threatened your government and made you lose ground physically and politically.  Syria is known for being a major contributor of terrorists in Iraq, imposing them selves on Lebanon, as well as being on of the tag team nations that got the bright idea to attack Israel and get their ass kicked, and to top it all off....the Syrian president meets with that Iranian jackass of a president at the HEIGHT of his international deboggle.  But Syria wonders...."Why does everyone think we did it?"

8. "BRUTAL FIGHTING IN AFGHANISTAN!!"  No, there isn't.  Maybe every now and then, but 90% of the time it's some Afghani equivalent of a redneck sitting on a big hill and lobbing about a dozen mortars onto a base.  Then he runs away and gets wasted by either a) Convoy of Security Police. b) Fast response choppers, or c) the base just flat out opens up on his hillside and turns his body into mincemeat.  These un-organized amateurs are just plain stupid and useless.  I've been there, I've seen this, and I have friends there now.  It's pathetic.

7.  "Terrorists take another hostage".  How fucking stupid are these people?  Ok, let’s say you want something, whats the best way to get it?  I know!!  Lets kidnap an unarmed undefended female American journalist who has no power or political pull and we will demand the release of 15 terrorists or we will behead her!!!  DUMBASSES!!!  NO WONDER YOU LIVE IN THE DESERT!!!

6. Stampedes.  I recall from memory at least 4 stampedes in the Middle East last year.  Are you people to ignorant to possibly spread out a little bit?  Maybe even go to these places at different times or take a different way there?  Also, if someone yells "BOMB", don't run, you’re already dead.  I heard the stampede at the Mecca pilgrimage was caused because some tripped over some misplaced luggage.   ......*sigh*

5. Everything is always worse in the Middle East.  Anyone here about the ferry that sank with 1300 people on it?  WTF kind of ferry is that?  That’s almost the same as the Titanic sinking and all this is,...is a fucking ferry!!  Their worse than Mexicans!  If you wreck into a van on a Texas interstate you may accidentally kill 8 illegal immigrants, crash into a van in the Middle East and your either going to explode or kill at least 30 of them.

4. Suicide Bombers.  Dumbest...idea....ever.  Kill 2 Americans and 27 Iraqis.  Those are great odds.  You fucking people.

3.  "Our religion is better than your religion."  I'm getting real sick of that shit.  Every time you hear from anyone in the middle east of importance it's the same old shit "America is the infidel, Mohammed this Allah that, Allah supports us and not you blah blah blah"  Take you radical religious bullshit and cram it up your asses!!  Where was Allah when two of your "radical regimes" were toppled in under a year?  I guess it is Allah who forces you to hide in caves and hide your faces under turbans when you have innocent journalists and contractors trying to rebuild your shitty joke of a country, held hostage in a basement.  You are cowards.  If they want to bring the religion thing into all the time, FINE!  My religion just kicked the shit out of your religion.

2.  Iran.  Enough said.  Keep being a radical extremist jackass and see what happens.  Iran as opposed to Iraq actually has the support of the UN and EU as far as the ass whippin he is steering his people towards.  Keep it up, I might just have to re-enlist so I can can come over and stick my size 14 Cochran Marauder up your ass.

1. Middle Eastern people in general.  You people demand the respect of the world yet you burn flags and kill people over a FUCKING CARTOON!!!  GET OVER IT!!  You elect a terrorist party to government in Palestine and then ask for aid?  Shut up.  You bomb your own civilians and murder innocent people in the name of your Holy War?  Idiots!  Stampedes, bombings, riots, endless protests over nothing, terrorist breeding and harboring, drug markets, etc etc etc YOU PEOPLE SUCK!  I couldn't imagine why ohh WHY anyone nation would want to go to war with you people.  Maybe because we're SICK OF YOU!


In closing of my rant and wonderful venting section I would just like to summarize.

People of the Middle East, your radical religious beliefs, your ignorant politics, your lack of discipline and moral, social and common sense and frankly, just you in general ALL SUCK.  You don't deserve to breath.

Coug Out.

Last edited by Cougar (2006-02-07 08:18:48)

Kaosdad
Whisky Tango Foxtrot?
+201|5804|Broadlands, VA
Cougar;

Please, don't hold back - tell us how you really feel.

Gotta admit - every time I see a news report about the middle east, I do a lot of head scratching.
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|5819|San Francisco
No one gives a damn if you or the rest of the world are getting sick of hearing news stories from the Middle East.  The point is they live here on this planet too, and have every right to be here.  So many countries have tried to take advantage of that area it's left them in a completely ravaged and wasted state.
What we DON'T need to proliferate around is ignorance and intolerance...all that induces culture clashing from both sides of this conflict.

10.  Osama only seems to pop up any time the Bush administration is in trouble.  Looking back on how many ties the Bush family has with the bin Laden family, I don't have a hard time at all to believe that they are in cahoots.

9.  Syria didn't do what?  Explain more, and realize that every country happens to harbor terrorists/funds terrorist cells in some way or another.  The heightened awareness and over-proportioning of Islamic terrorists just comes from all the spinning the mass media has put on everything leading up to and revolving around our Iraq Invasion.  In this "War on Terrorism," we've somehow neglected to go after other terrorist cells in other countries, i.e., Aum Shinrikyo in Japan, the IRA in Ireland, etc...

8.  By your account, once again it's media spin.  Nothing to do with the Middle East at all other than journalists blowing everything out of proportion. 

7.  What the fuck else are they going to do?!  Actually TRY to take on the world's Largest military force with their soviet weapons and overall lack of training (compared to our forces)?  You've underestimated them...if you think that they are afraid of the US Forces and will just come out surrendering, you're wrong.  They have an agenda of their own, and will have to do anything other than surrendering to get it done.  It's a fear factor.  Random people getting kidnapped makes it seem like no foreigners are safe when entering Iraq, and it also means that the Insurgents are still very serious about their cause.

6.  Right...yell "BOMB" in any American mall and watch all the Americans just give up and go "Well shit...looks like I'm dead!"  Shit happens, and even moreso in an area ravaged by fighting and random bombings.  People like to live, asshole, and are usually inclined to save themselves if a threat arises, no matter what the consequences are of them trying to save themselves/their family.

5.  Once again, the countries have been so economically strained from corrupt dictatorships and outside governments trying to control all of their resources, a vast majority of the population in the Middle East is stuck in poverty.  You obviously don't understand the strife that they have gone through, and are enduring now because we decided to occupy their country.

4.  One way of them fighting back.  It's too bad they've had to resort to it, and it always results in more innocent people dead, but this ties right back into #7.

3.  The Middle East is governed by a collection of Theocracies.  It's what happens when religion interweaves itself with government and politics.  You also have collections of radical Imams who are teaching young, disenfranchised youths the ideas of their ideal situation, resulting in the suicide bombings and figuring out ways to attack the US invaders without getting completely wiped out and to hopefully cause their retreat.

2.  Iran's government definitely does not reflect the views and opinions of the majority of the rest of Iran.  It's now up to the younger and growing citizens of Iran to cause dissent against the views and wishes of their government in the hopes that nothing will escalate in the hatred against the US.

1.  This line of thinking is only going to get more and more people killed with no resolve.

It's not the US's decision as to who gets to live here in the world.  We aren't the World Police.  We aren't a Hegemony, for fucks sake.  We are a large country that's confused, trying to deal with problems at home while the elected governing administration decides to meddle with world affairs hell-bent on getting their own agenda up and running.  It's now up to the rest of the world to urge diplomacy and tolerance, but I see it's too late to tide you over towards tolerance. 
You'd rather just go over there and slaughter every last one of them to get your point made that "we are better in every way!"
Torin
Member
+52|5817
Marconius, your post wasn't nearly as comical as Cougar's.

Oh, and down with Bush.
hurricane2oo5
Do One Ya Mug !!!
+176|5889|mansfield
no im sick off the middle east too. why dont all the good countries in the world save up all thier money and buy a big nuke. we could bomb the middle east and wipe it all out. i then suggest we turn the whole area into a holiday resort
fankoo
jord
Member
+2,382|5803|The North, beyond the wall.
i agree bomb then oh did no1 suggest that?and it was only a vartoon for fuck sake .Also mec is the shittest army on bf2!
Torin
Member
+52|5817
It still amazes me that after years of all this BS in the middle east, that there are still people that support the war, however much that % of the population is dwindling.

We've made what, no progress at all in the past 2 years?

So we see some country that is ruled by a vicious dictator, breeding terrorism and suffering, what do we do? We take it over and force feed them democracy, that will cure all that ails them! Except once we do, ironically, we end up breeding even more terrorism and suffering, and arguably they are in even worse shape than when we got the pea-brained idea to invade in the first place. But! They have a blooming little democracy of generally corrupt politicians now! Hurray! Add in to that some religious extremists having actual power, and what do we have? A situation 10 times shittier than when we ever laid eyes on it!

The "War on Terrorism" has become the biggest joke in the history of the world. It makes just as much sense as other phenomenal success stories such as the "War on Drugs". Hey, let's start a war on something that does nothing but makes the problem worse! We'll fight terrorism by spawning 500% more of it!

What a crock.

This is why the separation of church and state was put into the constitution, to avoid stupid religiously motivated nonsense like we've had the pleasure of experiencing the past 6 years. Hey, but let's gray the line between the two so we can get away with personal vendettas that have nothing to do with "spreading freedom and democracy" and more to do with idealogical delusion.
tF-afrojap
Member
+124|5972|SF
Good post Marco, I am seriously disappointed with the replies from our bf2s community so far. Not that it was a great topic to start with. Bunch of flame bait if you ask me. It's a gross and ignorant generalization, not worth my time. If you don't have anything meaningful to add to the thread, don't bother posting. This isn't the place for it.

Torin wrote:

Marconius, your post wasn't nearly as comical as Cougar's.

Oh, and down with Bush.
So is yours. It's called the "Debate and Serious Talk" section for a reason.


hurricane2oo5 wrote:

why dont all the good countries in the world save up all thier money and buy a big nuke. we could bomb the middle east and wipe it all out. i then suggest we turn the whole area into a holiday resort
fankoo
The good countries? Hilarious. Too bad the world isn't clear cut black and white like a western movie. Go back to the BF2 chatter section please.

jord wrote:

i agree bomb then oh did no1 suggest that?and it was only a vartoon for fuck sake .Also mec is the shittest army on bf2!
I.. Wh...   not gonna bother with this one.

Torin wrote:

Hey, but let's gray the line between the two so we can get away with personal vendettas that have nothing to do with "spreading freedom and democracy" and more to do with idealogical delusion.
Totally agree with graying the lines between religion and politics, that shit is never cool. But it's the next thing you said.. do you seriously think the U.S. invested all that capital over a personal vendetta?
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|5819|San Francisco
Sorry, my post was devoid of any humor.  Here are some happy fun links!
Our President
Spam!!
Original 'How Not to be Seen' Sketch
I've always wanted to be a Lumberjack
Mr. Bean!

As for the personal vendetta, it definitely had a hand in it, though was a minor role to their larger agenda.  I've already posted the PNAC report in various places around this site, but in that report, the right-wingers detail out exactly why and how they are going to attempt to control the Middle East for their own advantage.
Causing "another Pearl Harbor" (page 51 of the PNAC report) was one of the first steps to take in their plan in order to get Americans on their side.  This is a terrible mess and is definitely not one to be taken lightly.

The whole "my way or the highway/with us or against us" attitude is exactly what we Cannot be doing at this particular point, because then we are no better than their radical Imams who are saying the exact same thing.  Ever think about that?

Military superiority != "Good" country
Torin
Member
+52|5817

tF-afrojap wrote:

Torin wrote:

Hey, but let's gray the line between the two so we can get away with personal vendettas that have nothing to do with "spreading freedom and democracy" and more to do with idealogical delusion.
Totally agree with graying the lines between religion and politics, that shit is never cool. But it's the next thing you said.. do you seriously think the U.S. invested all that capital over a personal vendetta?
No, I think it started as a personal vendetta and evolved into what it is now, an obligation to finish what we started, hence the requisite investment of all that capital.

Do you think the country (read: congress) would have gone along with this "war" if the administration said ahead of time that it would cost the lives of thousands of our troops, tens of thousands of Iraqi citizens, billions upon billions of tax payer's dollars and what may very well end up as a complete ruination of another soverign nation just to facilitate dethroning 1 of the world's many dictators?

No, I don't think anyone had intended to invest all that capital, that's just what it has unfortunately come to. The only thing worse than invading a soverign nation with no plausible or substantiated reason, is invading a soverign nation with no plausible or substantiated reason and then leaving them to clean up the mess on their own. Unfortunately it took all this to save face (if you can even consider it that) for what has become just 1 more bullet point on the ever-growing list of the administration's botched attempts at doing some good.

And for the record, my comment about his post being devoid of comic value was in itself also a joke.

Last edited by Torin (2006-02-07 11:18:25)

General_CoLin_Tassi
Member
+-2|5825|England, UK
I'm definitely not racist but I have to agree with cougar. Well said mate.
Can I also add that the way most middle eastern countries treat their women is disgusting. How can a country ever be great if they surpress half there population. When I say surpress I mean the dress code, being able to go anywhere freely etc etc etc. I once knew a man from Saudi Arabia who came to the UK with his 2 daughters and wife and guess what. He said he wouldn't go back because his wife and daughters preferred the UK lifestyle. As in freedom and liberty. Says it all to me. The middle east seriously needs to move with the times.
Plus give the Palastinians their country ffs. But I still think certain members of the islamic commuity will still hate the west. F ing crazyness.

Last edited by General_CoLin_Tassi (2006-02-07 11:27:25)

Torin
Member
+52|5817
Anyways, I'm certainly a liberal, I definitely oppose this whole situation in the middle east, and I think the US has more and more become a nation fit to stick it's nose where it absolutely doesn't belong, to facilitate a role in global politics that it has no place taking. Some people think that the US is fit to be the 1-country equivalent of the UN, forcing it's will on whoever it wants, whenever it wants, and apparently has what it takes to get away with it, no matter how many millions of people across the globe disagree.

I am also saddened by the fact that the majority of our country's population is filled with narrow minded, religiously motivated war mongers that would like nothing more than for the largest military force on the planet to go pushing people around on the basis that they do things differently than we do. The human race, especially the group that makes up the US, is not fit for governing what has become of the modern day super powers. The tolerance for other people's/nation's religious/political/social beliefs is so limited and in many cases non-existent, that our attempts at policing the world and force feeding whatever butchery of our founder's ideals the administration decides to stand behind is nothing short of a formula for disaster.

The big problem with the US is that we meddle where we do not belong. And on an international scale, that's quite the dangerous game, and apparently pays off for no one involved.
General_CoLin_Tassi
Member
+-2|5825|England, UK
Torin, things changed after WW2. Being isolationist didn't help anyone prior to WW2. It allowed a problem to get worse. Now we intervene. Fingers crossed and hope it works.
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|5889|Dallas

Marconius wrote:

No one gives a damn if you or the rest of the world are getting sick of hearing news stories from the Middle East.  The point is they live here on this planet too, and have every right to be here.  So many countries have tried to take advantage of that area it's left them in a completely ravaged and wasted state.
What we DON'T need to proliferate around is ignorance and intolerance...all that induces culture clashing from both sides of this conflict.

10.  Osama only seems to pop up any time the Bush administration is in trouble.  Looking back on how many ties the Bush family has with the bin Laden family, I don't have a hard time at all to believe that they are in cahoots.

9.  Syria didn't do what?  Explain more, and realize that every country happens to harbor terrorists/funds terrorist cells in some way or another.  The heightened awareness and over-proportioning of Islamic terrorists just comes from all the spinning the mass media has put on everything leading up to and revolving around our Iraq Invasion.  In this "War on Terrorism," we've somehow neglected to go after other terrorist cells in other countries, i.e., Aum Shinrikyo in Japan, the IRA in Ireland, etc...

8.  By your account, once again it's media spin.  Nothing to do with the Middle East at all other than journalists blowing everything out of proportion. 

7.  What the fuck else are they going to do?!  Actually TRY to take on the world's Largest military force with their soviet weapons and overall lack of training (compared to our forces)?  You've underestimated them...if you think that they are afraid of the US Forces and will just come out surrendering, you're wrong.  They have an agenda of their own, and will have to do anything other than surrendering to get it done.  It's a fear factor.  Random people getting kidnapped makes it seem like no foreigners are safe when entering Iraq, and it also means that the Insurgents are still very serious about their cause.

6.  Right...yell "BOMB" in any American mall and watch all the Americans just give up and go "Well shit...looks like I'm dead!"  Shit happens, and even moreso in an area ravaged by fighting and random bombings.  People like to live, asshole, and are usually inclined to save themselves if a threat arises, no matter what the consequences are of them trying to save themselves/their family.

5.  Once again, the countries have been so economically strained from corrupt dictatorships and outside governments trying to control all of their resources, a vast majority of the population in the Middle East is stuck in poverty.  You obviously don't understand the strife that they have gone through, and are enduring now because we decided to occupy their country.

4.  One way of them fighting back.  It's too bad they've had to resort to it, and it always results in more innocent people dead, but this ties right back into #7.

3.  The Middle East is governed by a collection of Theocracies.  It's what happens when religion interweaves itself with government and politics.  You also have collections of radical Imams who are teaching young, disenfranchised youths the ideas of their ideal situation, resulting in the suicide bombings and figuring out ways to attack the US invaders without getting completely wiped out and to hopefully cause their retreat.

2.  Iran's government definitely does not reflect the views and opinions of the majority of the rest of Iran.  It's now up to the younger and growing citizens of Iran to cause dissent against the views and wishes of their government in the hopes that nothing will escalate in the hatred against the US.

1.  This line of thinking is only going to get more and more people killed with no resolve.

It's not the US's decision as to who gets to live here in the world.  We aren't the World Police.  We aren't a Hegemony, for fucks sake.  We are a large country that's confused, trying to deal with problems at home while the elected governing administration decides to meddle with world affairs hell-bent on getting their own agenda up and running.  It's now up to the rest of the world to urge diplomacy and tolerance, but I see it's too late to tide you over towards tolerance. 
You'd rather just go over there and slaughter every last one of them to get your point made that "we are better in every way!"
10. Typical Anti-Bush non-sense...

9. The Syrian goverment was accused of having a hand in the assissination of Rafik Hariri, which they of course denied.  Hariri was instrumental in pushing the Syrian goverment out of Lebanon and many other anti-Syrian roles.  Also, it seems your tangent went off the course of my original point.  I was giving reasons why anyone would "doubt what Syria says".

8. More or less.  My topic was 80% anti Middle East 20% anti Media.

7.  What else are they going to do?  Ohh poor poor terrorists, they can't stand up to our military.  My heart goes out to them.  Well for starters, STOP KILLING PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO REBUILD YOUR COUNTRY!!  Second, stop killing journalists, instead, tell them a nice story or their point of view and have the journalist work thier typical media bullshit sympothy story.  Cutting thier head off just pisses EVERYONE off and makes thier situation that much worse.  People aren't going to stop coming there because people are being beheaded, the money is substantial for doing work there and if they don't do it, someone else will.  Hell, there was a 16 or something year old that flew there on his own, he didn't seem to scared and I'm sure he's seen the news or at least heard about all this shit.

6.  Blow up or get trampled to death.  I choose insta-death.  Also people in American malls usually aren't packed in shoulder to shoulder for a 4 mile stretch like cattle.

5.  Well, they can move can't they?  Iran is right there and I hear they have a wonderful new goverment.

4.  Ok, you say this ties into #7.  So by your train of thought, since they cannot stand up to our military they need to kill upwards of 30 innocent Iraqis in a crowded market to kill the 1 GI standing guard on the corner?  You condone this?  What are you, Stalins little brother or something?  Besides the fact that killing 30 Iraqis to kill 1 or 2 GI's is ridiculas and stupid.

3.  Kudos to the Middle Eastern people for not doing a god-damned thing about it.

2. Agreed, yet holding your breath for this to happen will likely result in a premature death.

1. No.

What would you do if the guy down the street took a bulldozer and ran it into your house and then stuck around long enough to light you mailbox on fire while your wife, kids and neighbors stood there and watched?  You would probably go kick his ass.  Then after you do that, he starts throwing rocks through his neighbors windows and blaming it on you until eventually the whole block hates your guts.

Same concept.
Torin
Member
+52|5817

General_CoLin_Tassi wrote:

Torin, things changed after WW2. Being isolationist didn't help anyone prior to WW2. It allowed a problem to get worse. Now we intervene. Fingers crossed and hope it works.
Yes, things changed, but no one gave us the right to go around and literally do whatever the hell we want. Intervening to help where help is requested and needed is one thing, it's an entirely differently thing to invade another soverign nation and force a completely foreign government and way of thinking on a people that for all intents and purposes is still living in the middle ages.

Cross all the fingers you want, but it isn't working.

It is a far stretch going from being isolationists to doing what we do now, which is completely unwarranted and unfair to the people who we impose our will upon.

As a super power, we have what it takes to make a difference in the world, but this "war on terrorism" and Operation Iraqi Freedom have done nothing to make a positive difference in the world, it just made a problem worse, ironally very similiar to how doing nothing prior to WW2 made things worse. Apparently, we're very good at doing things wrong, regardless to whether or not we decide to get involved.

Edit: Added the quote.

Last edited by Torin (2006-02-07 11:37:15)

General_CoLin_Tassi
Member
+-2|5825|England, UK
Torin, when you say and I quote "impose our will upon" I suppose you mean allowing them to live freely, without repression, being able to vote and govern themselves etc etc. I mean Saddam had it coming. He invaded Kuwait ffs. The no fly zone contained him and then 10 years later we finished the job. Iraq has it problems with the insurgency but the amount of people who voted recently says they are wanting to live freely and have liberty.
Torin
Member
+52|5817
I agree with a lot of the points the OP makes, but obviously I disagree with the reasoning behind what made things the way they are in the first place.

The root of the problem here, on all sides, is there is not even remotely enough tolerance and understanding of foreign people. Everything that goes on in the Middle East seems stupid to us, and I'm sure everything that goes on here seems stupid to them. Except in their case, their religion (or whatever twisting of their religion they decide to follow) gives them a reason to kill us over it, similiar to how our moral majority thought it was ok to go in and kill off Sadam's regime.

And the biggest cause of all this crap is religion. If it weren't for religion, especially the conficts between the thinking of christians and muslims, none of this nonsense would have ever happened. If left to human nature, logical and common sense, there would no doubt be much more positive change in the world than there is today. However, everything that is screwed up in the world is for the most part caused by the effects of religion on society. And the biggest unfortunate part of all of this, is that it will never change. Religion is unforunately so ingrained in the minds of billions of people that one cannot hope to expect rational, logical thinking out of enough of the world's population required to get good things done.

Humanity is doomed to these endless struggles because of this widespread disease of close minded, religious extremism that permeates the very core of international troubles.

Thank god we have distractions like BF2 to take our minds off of the ultimate doom our species is bound to meet at our own hands. (and by our, I mean humanity)
fdcp_elmo
Rules over Sesamestreet
+5|5880|The Netherlands
I'm really getting tired of them too.
now they all go out burning flags and embassy's. and for what? because of some stupid drawings.
even in countrys where demonstrating is forbidden like Syria all people crawl out of their homes taking weapons and burn all they see.
if these drawings piss them off because they are offending Mohammed and the Islam. why don't they demonstrate against Terrorists? the terrorists do things in the name of islam where a lot of muslims don't agree with.
but noooooo now some guy from a newspaper drawed mohammed and they hate all of Denmark and Norway for it (why Norway btw?)
we are just busy with them all the time. now a there comes a new mission to Afghanistan to keep peace in Uruzgan... nice and off go a lot of soldiers. I think even to people who dont want to be helped.
and now Iran is making Nuclear stuff. they say it is for energy but because they do so secret about it I am sure they plan to make Nukes. I say we get our soldiers there now instead of bloody Uruzgan and blow that terrorist governement out of that fucking country!
most of the Terrorist in Iraq are moved in by Iran. so if Iran becomes a nuclear power it is just to choose where they will shoot their missles at.
I sure hope that plan that Bush made a few years ago to make a Missile destructor in space in done. I am afraid we will need it after all.
totally diffrent from what i thought a few years ago. when the only enemy was a bunch of terrorist maniacs in Afganistan right after the twin towers.

I am fucking tired of the whole middle east
HellHead
The fantastic Mr. Antichrist
+336|5834|Germany
I´m sorry I have to say it this way, but it´s because of Cougar and similar thinking people why this world is such a fucked up, crappy place...And I´m not talking about The States or the Middle East in particular...i mean THE WHOLE WORLD !

The religion problem :
Every religion in it´s basic NEVER supports any kind of war...I lived n muslim dominated country for many years and me and my family never had any problems with the people there, in fact of lot of them were niceer than my fellowman here in my homecountry.
It´s not the religion that fucks people up, it´s single guys or groups who use religion for their personal purpose.
Examples ? :
Of curse we all know about the radical guys in the middle east countries using religion for their little " jihad " ( by the way this word actually is not existent in the coran )
On the other hand we have an army general in the states running around at Christian conferences, talking about "fighting the devil in the middle east" with "the help of jesus"...

Cougar, I wonder if you ever met muslim people, and i´m not talking about the ones running around in Irak, bombing the crap out of everybody else.
I really think you have no clue what your talking about when you refer to "the people in the middle east"

And before I get some flaming about being to liberal or something...like I said,  I used to live in a muslim country for a few years and right now i have an american grilfriend, working in the army, being an NBC NCO. A lot of my friends are soldiers from 1 ID. A lot of them them went to Iraq...some of them didn´t come back...

So I really know the two sides of the whole story...

Greetz, Tony
Torin
Member
+52|5817

General_CoLin_Tassi wrote:

Torin, when you say and I quote "impose our will upon" I suppose you mean allowing them to live freely, without repression, being able to vote and govern themselves etc etc. I mean Saddam had it coming. He invaded Kuwait ffs. The no fly zone contained him and then 10 years later we finished the job. Iraq has it problems with the insurgency but the amount of people who voted recently says they are wanting to live freely and have liberty.
Heh. Live freely, as in being killed by the hundreds every day by religious extremist terrorists instead of a dictatorship? Live freely, as in being forced to succumb to a government and line of thinking that in no way resembles how the grand majority of their population feels or thinks things should be run? What choice do they have, either way? What part of all this is evidence of freedom? You compare a force fead democracy over there, to the "freedom" we experience over here, and I say bullshit. What they have over there is NOTHING like we have over here, because the moral fibers that are the backbone of their country are completely different than that of our's.

These people aren't capable of governing themselves the way that we do, because simply on a basis of human evolution, they're centuries behind. They have neither the comprehension or the will to run a country the way we do, and the only reason it hasn't completely fallen apart yet, is because we're holding their hands and dragging them along the whole way.

How is Saddam invading Kuwait and better or worse than Bush invading Iraq? What, some mutilated PR excuse for spreading freedom to the world? What you see as spreading freedom, I see as saving face for one of the biggest international blunders done in the name of anything good.

The amount of people who voted recently says they want a piece of the pie in terms of who has the power to run things. They've always wanted the power to run things their way, little has changed. Except now, the country will be dictated by the majority instead of the minority, and things will be run by corrupt politicians taking complete advantage of an ignorant and religiously motivated population, instead of a dictator. Nothing good is coming of the situation in Iraq, it's just a different kind of shitty situation.

Liberty? Yeah, ok. Hell, our own country doesn't even offer real freedom and liberty.. we're free to be spied on by our government, and the liberty we get comes in the form a political opinion formed by a majority on the supreme court, which is in turn molded by religiously influenced political agendas.

Liberty and freedom are words that accurately described things over 200 years ago, but are abused in modern times to cover up the political agendas responsible for ironically taking away our liberties and freedom.

Last edited by Torin (2006-02-07 12:05:54)

General_CoLin_Tassi
Member
+-2|5825|England, UK
Torin has a point with the religion. The middle east is too devout to their religion and it has held them back in many areas and is now clashing with the rest modern humanity. Don't get me wrong. I don't believe all Muslims have a problem with us. Its the racist and facist elements within their community. Perhaps they would do better if they stood up and denounce these idiots who hate the west and support islamic terrorists. I mean, look at the twats in London a few days ago. They had banners and were shouting everything from behead whoever and your going to get a 7/7 (London bombing). WTF. Absolute crazyness in anyone's book.
Torin
Member
+52|5817
And therein lies the problem with religion. These people aren't going to denounce each other, and even if they did, the extremists would still be comitting acts of terrorism in the name of Islam.

Religion gives everyone involved an excuse to do something stupid that conflicts with someone else's way of living, and screws up the lives of people we don't and won't understand, no matter whose side you are looking at it from.

What is religion? A guideline for how a society should be run. And we have multiple guidelines on how to run a society that conflict in very basic ways, but we're still trying to smash them together and hope the whole thing just doesn't explode. Well, it is, which is why this whole situation in the middle east is doomed to failure.
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|5902

Marconius wrote:

10.  Osama only seems to pop up any time the Bush administration is in trouble.  Looking back on how many ties the Bush family has with the bin Laden family, I don't have a hard time at all to believe that they are in cahoots.
What about the USS Cole, the embasy bombings, the first Trade Tower attack?  So, Clinton is in on it too by your logic.

Marconius wrote:

9.  Syria didn't do what?  Explain more, and realize that every country happens to harbor terrorists/funds terrorist cells in some way or another.  The heightened awareness and over-proportioning of Islamic terrorists just comes from all the spinning the mass media has put on everything leading up to and revolving around our Iraq Invasion.  In this "War on Terrorism," we've somehow neglected to go after other terrorist cells in other countries, i.e., Aum Shinrikyo in Japan, the IRA in Ireland, etc....
Probably talking about the assasignation of the Lebanon leader.

Marconius wrote:

8.  By your account, once again it's media spin.  Nothing to do with the Middle East at all other than journalists blowing everything out of proportion.
Always!

Marconius wrote:

7.  What the fuck else are they going to do?!  Actually TRY to take on the world's Largest military force with their soviet weapons and overall lack of training (compared to our forces)?  You've underestimated them...if you think that they are afraid of the US Forces and will just come out surrendering, you're wrong.  They have an agenda of their own, and will have to do anything other than surrendering to get it done.  It's a fear factor.  Random people getting kidnapped makes it seem like no foreigners are safe when entering Iraq, and it also means that the Insurgents are still very serious about their cause.
Fear and MONEY!!  Most kidnappings go unreported because they aren't US citizens.  Italy paid for the release of all Italian hostages.

Marconius wrote:

6.  Right...yell "BOMB" in any American mall and watch all the Americans just give up and go "Well shit...looks like I'm dead!"  Shit happens, and even moreso in an area ravaged by fighting and random bombings.  People like to live, asshole, and are usually inclined to save themselves if a threat arises, no matter what the consequences are of them trying to save themselves/their family.
Very true.  I wonder what would happen in a crowded forum?

Marconius wrote:

5.  Once again, the countries have been so economically strained from corrupt dictatorships and outside governments trying to control all of their resources, a vast majority of the population in the Middle East is stuck in poverty.  You obviously don't understand the strife that they have gone through, and are enduring now because we decided to occupy their country.
So what must we do?  The same thing is happening in Africa where thousands starve and are slaughtered by thugs.  The dictatorships in both the middle east and African countries have plenty of money yet they starve their population.  We're trying in both areas.  And that's more than most countries can say.

Marconius wrote:

4.  One way of them fighting back.  It's too bad they've had to resort to it, and it always results in more innocent people dead, but this ties right back into #7.
3.  The Middle East is governed by a collection of Theocracies.  It's what happens when religion interweaves itself with government and politics.  You also have collections of radical Imams who are teaching young, disenfranchised youths the ideas of their ideal situation, resulting in the suicide bombings and figuring out ways to attack the US invaders without getting completely wiped out and to hopefully cause their retreat.
It's very sad too.  They keep their people dumb and "we'll do all the thinking".

Marconius wrote:

2.  Iran's government definitely does not reflect the views and opinions of the majority of the rest of Iran.  It's now up to the younger and growing citizens of Iran to cause dissent against the views and wishes of their government in the hopes that nothing will escalate in the hatred against the US.
Yep! But Iran's government has all the weapons.

Marconius wrote:

1.  This line of thinking is only going to get more and more people killed with no resolve.
People have been dying for hundreds of years in Africa, Middle east, and all over the world.  We're trying to make a difference now, that is all.

Marconius wrote:

It's not the US's decision as to who gets to live here in the world.  We aren't the World Police.  We aren't a Hegemony, for fucks sake.  We are a large country that's confused, trying to deal with problems at home while the elected governing administration decides to meddle with world affairs hell-bent on getting their own agenda up and running.  It's now up to the rest of the world to urge diplomacy and tolerance, but I see it's too late to tide you over towards tolerance. 
You'd rather just go over there and slaughter every last one of them to get your point made that "we are better in every way!"
World affairs affect us no matter if we get involved or not.  Take WWI and WWII for example.
jmbbf1975
Member
+1|5779
Welcome to humanity.
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|5889|Dallas

tF-afrojap wrote:

Good post Marco, I am seriously disappointed with the replies from our bf2s community so far. Not that it was a great topic to start with. Bunch of flame bait if you ask me. It's a gross and ignorant generalization, not worth my time. If you don't have anything meaningful to add to the thread, don't bother posting. This isn't the place for it.
poopy

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