Constitutionalism -- A Religion?

2009-09-09 20:52:14

#1

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6692|North Carolina

With all the criticism of socialism and expanding government, one thing seems to go unnoticed in much of policy debates. The Constitution was written in a very different era from our current one.

Obviously, the Founding Fathers couldn't have conceived of all the changes that would occur between their time and today, and the fixation that many have on literally and strictly interpreting the Constitution reminds me a lot of another group that takes an old text very literally -- evangelicals.

So it got me thinking after a little while. Isn't Constitutionalism a lot like a religion? It has the same rigid interpretation of a doctrine written in a very different time that fundamentalist religions involve. It rejects many notions of adapting passages to modern times and needs in the same way that many evangelicals reject new interpretations of Biblical passages. It also adheres more to principle than to realism, and in the minds of many Constitutionalists, applying logic that has worked in other countries' systems is virtually heresy just like other religions are to fundamentalists.

2009-09-09 20:55:18

#2

Flaming_Maniac: prince of insufficient light; +2,490|6994|67.222.138.85

I said we should screw the Constitution and start over from scratch from what we know now years ago on this forum.

I used much the same analogy that the Founding Fathers weren't gods. They were still mere mortals that can make mistakes.

2009-09-09 20:56:21

#3

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6888|132 and Bush

The constitution is a flexible document, capable of being amended and interpreted by modern day judges. This IS what the founding fathers had in mind.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2009-09-09 20:56:24

#4

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6692|North Carolina

Although our goals are clearly different, Flaming, I agree with your perception.

2009-09-09 20:57:01

#5

Stingray24: Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy; +1,060|6732|The Land of Scott Walker

We have an amendment process ... seems to work quite well.

2009-09-09 20:57:28

#6

Flaming_Maniac: prince of insufficient light; +2,490|6994|67.222.138.85

Turquoise wrote:
Although our goals are clearly different, Flaming, I agree with your perception.

Lucky for you too, 'cause the Founding Fathers got a lot closer to me than they did to you.

2009-09-09 20:58:03

#7

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6692|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:
The constitution is a flexible document, capable of being amended and interpreted by modern day judges. This IS what the founding fathers had in mind.

While there is a mechanism in place for changing the Constitution, as with any document, interpretation is key. I believe many who consider themselves Constitutionalists are taking a far too strict interpretation of the Constitution.

2009-09-09 21:00:37

#8

13urnzz: Banned; +5,830|6784

That's why they left a system of checks and balances, why they made the Constitution amendable, and allowed the judiciary the power to interpet that.

Scrap it now and you open the door for something inferior to replace it. My God, look @ the bullshit going on today! i don't care what your political persuasion is, to get a simple majority in this country is asking to much. You thought the War Between the States was bad?

2009-09-09 21:02:06

#9

Flaming_Maniac: prince of insufficient light; +2,490|6994|67.222.138.85

This is about the same reaction I got too.

On your knees, peons, avert your eyes from the sacred document.

2009-09-09 21:02:20

#10

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5645|London, England

Flaming_Maniac wrote:
I said we should screw the Constitution and start over from scratch from what we know now years ago on this forum.

I used much the same analogy that the Founding Fathers weren't gods. They were still mere mortals that can make mistakes.

Show me a man today that is the equal of the man in your signature and I MIGHT agree.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2009-09-09 21:05:39

#11

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6692|North Carolina

burnzz wrote:
That's why they left a system of checks and balances, why they made the Constitution amendable, and allowed the judiciary the power to interpet that.

Scrap it now and you open the door for something inferior to replace it. My God, look @ the bullshit going on today! i don't care what your political persuasion is, to get a simple majority in this country is asking to much. You thought the War Between the States was bad?

I'm not necessarily saying we scrap it. I just believe it should not be interpreted in such a rigid way.

2009-09-09 21:05:49

#12

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5645|London, England

Sure, tear up the Constitution and replace it with the Populist trash that would no doubt come out of any modern Constitutional convention. Can we pretty please have our current federal government write it for us too? That would be so amazing.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2009-09-09 21:06:05

#13

Flaming_Maniac: prince of insufficient light; +2,490|6994|67.222.138.85

The people that deserve power dislike it, but they will step in when needed. Like, say, if we were to revolt against the motherland.

If they don't, we're fucked anyways, and that's a fact. Might as well go out with our boots on.

2009-09-09 21:07:06

#14

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5645|London, England

Turquoise wrote:
burnzz wrote:
That's why they left a system of checks and balances, why they made the Constitution amendable, and allowed the judiciary the power to interpet that.

Scrap it now and you open the door for something inferior to replace it. My God, look @ the bullshit going on today! i don't care what your political persuasion is, to get a simple majority in this country is asking to much. You thought the War Between the States was bad?
I'm not necessarily saying we scrap it. I just believe it should not be interpreted in such a rigid way.

Right, because it's the only thing holding back the floodgates of socialism in this country amirite? Or it could be that you're a distinct minority and you'd all be ridden out of town on a rail anyway.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2009-09-09 21:07:36

#15

Stingray24: Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy; +1,060|6732|The Land of Scott Walker

JohnG@lt wrote:
Sure, tear up the Constitution and replace it with the Populist trash that would no doubt come out of any modern Constitutional convention. Can we pretty please have our current federal government write it for us too? That would be so amazing.

This man needs more karma

+1

2009-09-09 21:10:34

#16

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6692|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
burnzz wrote:
That's why they left a system of checks and balances, why they made the Constitution amendable, and allowed the judiciary the power to interpet that.

Scrap it now and you open the door for something inferior to replace it. My God, look @ the bullshit going on today! i don't care what your political persuasion is, to get a simple majority in this country is asking to much. You thought the War Between the States was bad?
I'm not necessarily saying we scrap it. I just believe it should not be interpreted in such a rigid way.
Right, because it's the only thing holding back the floodgates of socialism in this country amirite? Or it could be that you're a distinct minority and you'd all be ridden out of town on a rail anyway.

John... you're a minority too. Most people aren't as far in the Libertarian direction as you. So, I don't know exactly what you're getting at here.

The point is... a little realism isn't such a bad thing. When people practically worship the Founding Fathers, independent thought is often lacking.

2009-09-09 21:10:44

#17

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6888|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:
Kmarion wrote:
The constitution is a flexible document, capable of being amended and interpreted by modern day judges. This IS what the founding fathers had in mind.
While there is a mechanism in place for changing the Constitution, as with any document, interpretation is key. I believe many who consider themselves Constitutionalists are taking a far too strict interpretation of the Constitution.

No.. not as with any document. Yes interpretation is important.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2009-09-09 21:12:35

#18

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6692|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
Kmarion wrote:
The constitution is a flexible document, capable of being amended and interpreted by modern day judges. This IS what the founding fathers had in mind.
While there is a mechanism in place for changing the Constitution, as with any document, interpretation is key. I believe many who consider themselves Constitutionalists are taking a far too strict interpretation of the Constitution.
No.. not as with any document. Yes interpretation is important.

The "as with any document" part was referring to interpretation being important. I realize the way I worded that was vague though.

2009-09-09 21:13:24

#19

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5645|London, England

Turquoise wrote:
JohnG@lt wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
I'm not necessarily saying we scrap it. I just believe it should not be interpreted in such a rigid way.
Right, because it's the only thing holding back the floodgates of socialism in this country amirite? Or it could be that you're a distinct minority and you'd all be ridden out of town on a rail anyway.
John... you're a minority too. Most people aren't as far in the Libertarian direction as you. So, I don't know exactly what you're getting at here.

The point is... a little realism isn't such a bad thing. When people practically worship the Founding Fathers, independent thought is often lacking.

You always have the option to amend the constitution. This would require writing legislation that is common sense and that the vast majority of people in this country would get behind.

And you're wrong. I think Socially liberal, Fiscally frugal describes what the vast majority of people in this nation are. They may not be personally frugal but it's what they look for in their representatives.

Right now the choices are Socially Conservative/Fiscally retarded and Socially Liberal/Fiscally retarded. Not much of a choice now is there?

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2009-09-09 21:14:24)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2009-09-09 21:13:34

#20

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6888|132 and Bush

You are also comparing the people who (strictly) interpret a text that is 200 years old with people that interpret a text that is 2000 years old. There is a far greater difference in the evolution of ideas and principles.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2009-09-09 21:15:24

#21

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6692|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:
You are also comparing the people who (strictly) interpret a text that is 200 years old with people that interpret a text that is 2000 years old. There is a far greater difference in the evolution of ideas and principles.

That is true. The Constitution is definitely more relevant than the Bible.

Still, I think people get too stuck in their ways to consider practical changes to interpretation.

2009-09-09 21:15:47

#22

13urnzz: Banned; +5,830|6784

Turquoise wrote:
When people practically worship the Founding Fathers, independent thought is often lacking.

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/21025/photos/South%20Dakota%20073.jpg

2009-09-09 21:16:31

#23

Harmor: Error_Name_Not_Found; +605|6836|San Diego, CA, USA

Pope Ron Paul the First

2009-09-09 21:17:29

#24

Flaming_Maniac: prince of insufficient light; +2,490|6994|67.222.138.85

Set in stone, how fitting.

Come on John let's go. You don't just get to pick on the America hating communist.

2009-09-09 21:17:56

#25

Doctor Strangelove: Real Battlefield Veterinarian.; +1,758|6755

burnzz wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
When people practically worship the Founding Fathers, independent thought is often lacking.
http://static.bf2s.com/files/user/21025 … %20073.jpg

Roosevelt wrote the constitution?

News to me.

BF2S Forums Constitutionalism -- A Religion?

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

burnzz wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

burnzz wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

burnzz wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

burnzz wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Board footer