Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6552|SE London

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

Govt run healthcare has been tried in Hawaii and cancelled after 8 months... too many people left the private insurance
to use the free(it's not really free) healthcare and it overwhelmed the system in Hawaii...
http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/healthcare-failure/

Massachussets is govt run and also a disaster...
http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/01/mass … -disaster/
Articles like these are exactly the things I'm talking about. Whilst these are not quite as blatant lies as in the article from the OP, they are still extremely warped and misleading. The article about healthcare in Massachussets particularly so. The author essentially contradicts himself on a number of occasions.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6592|London, England
Personally I think the NHS is a good thing, and no shit you'll be getting people attacking it from within and from the abroad for whatever reasons, but it works. I couldn't care less whether the US does private health care or not, that's their problem, but over here, I'm happy with the NHS.

At the end of the day whether it's the Government or Private Healthcare Lobbyists you're getting screwed over by someone higher up than you, might aswell be the government who at least aren't doing it for sheer profit and greed. I don't know or care, all I can say is that I'm glad that Private Lobbyists don't have as much influence over here as they do in the US, as shit like that scares me more than the Government. IMO.

The thing with the US is that there is probably a proportionally large amount of stupid people than most developed countries, which is why there's alot of resistance towards other people essentially paying for their healthcare. I mean the amount of gangbangers and rednecks and idiots you have is unmatched.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6381|'Murka

Mekstizzle wrote:

Personally I think the NHS is a good thing, and no shit you'll be getting people attacking it from within and from the abroad for whatever reasons, but it works. I couldn't care less whether the US does private health care or not, that's their problem, but over here, I'm happy with the NHS.
And more than 85% of Americans are happy with the system here.

Mekstizzle wrote:

At the end of the day whether it's the Government or Private Healthcare Lobbyists you're getting screwed over by someone higher up than you, might aswell be the government who at least aren't doing it for sheer profit and greed. I don't know or care, all I can say is that I'm glad that Private Lobbyists don't have as much influence over here as they do in the US, as shit like that scares me more than the Government. IMO.
While I despise the lobbyists as well (on all sides), the perception that the companies that provide these services are "out to screw over" everyone is ridiculous. I have to deal with many small businesses regularly that provide medical care of one form or another and they are not--generally--doing it for "sheer profit and greed".

Mekstizzle wrote:

The thing with the US is that there is probably a proportionally large amount of stupid people than most developed countries, which is why there's alot of resistance towards other people essentially paying for their healthcare. I mean the amount of gangbangers and rednecks and idiots you have is unmatched.
The thing with the UK is that there is probably a proportionally larger amount of knuckleheads who make completely unfounded and ill-informed generalizations about the US. The number of insufferable, uninformed elitists you have is unmatched.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6552|SE London

FEOS wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Personally I think the NHS is a good thing, and no shit you'll be getting people attacking it from within and from the abroad for whatever reasons, but it works. I couldn't care less whether the US does private health care or not, that's their problem, but over here, I'm happy with the NHS.
And more than 85% of Americans are happy with the system here.
Really?

Source for that? Is it just a figure you've heard thrown around?

Doesn't fit at all with the figures from a recent poll, which shows that 85% of Americans support healthcare reform.

Reuters wrote:

But the Times/CBS poll found 85 percent of respondents wanted major healthcare reforms and most would be willing to pay higher taxes to ensure everyone had health insurance. An estimated 46 million Americans currently have no coverage.
I have little confidence in either figure.

As far as I can see from a combination of poll (in this case a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll) and census data, around 85% of Americans have health insurance. Of those more than three quarters are dissatisfied with the cost - though around 80% (of those covered) are happy with the quality of service. This is consistent with the results of polls conducted in the past.

The idea that all Americans with healthcare coverage are happy with it is clearly inaccurate. There are factors the majority with coverage are unhappy with and whilst overall satisfaction amongst those with coverage is generally good, it is obviously not universal - which it would need to be to achieve the figure of 85% of Americans being happy with their coverage under the current system (assuming that at least some of those without coverage are unhappy with their coverage - which is a fairly safe assumption).

Last edited by Bertster7 (2009-08-14 05:21:53)

Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6645|Canberra, AUS
which shows that 85% of Americans support healthcare reform.
I would point out here that support for healthcare reform does not necessarily imply support for universal healthcare.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6552|SE London

Spark wrote:

which shows that 85% of Americans support healthcare reform.
I would point out here that support for healthcare reform does not necessarily imply support for universal healthcare.
Considering the complete quote from the article, not just from me, it does.

But the Times/CBS poll found 85 percent of respondents wanted major healthcare reforms and most would be willing to pay higher taxes to ensure everyone had health insurance.
Does that not imply support for universal healthcare?
13rin
Member
+977|6450

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Personally I think the NHS is a good thing, and no shit you'll be getting people attacking it from within and from the abroad for whatever reasons, but it works. I couldn't care less whether the US does private health care or not, that's their problem, but over here, I'm happy with the NHS.
And more than 85% of Americans are happy with the system here.
Really?

Source for that? Is it just a figure you've heard thrown around?

Doesn't fit at all with the figures from a recent poll, which shows that 85% of Americans support healthcare reform.
Er.  Your poll is outdated.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ … to_new_low

Yea 42% approve. Not 85%...  You were saying?

*edit:
I forgot about this thread...
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=128198

Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2009-08-14 08:20:38)

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6256

lowing wrote:

Healthcare is not a right.
Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights disagrees with you.
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6652|Disaster Free Zone

PureFodder wrote:

lowing wrote:

Healthcare is not a right.
Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights disagrees with you.
Let me quote that for him.
Article 25.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
    * (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
EDIT: Ohhh I'm sure you'll just love some of the other "Rights" people are entitled too.

Last edited by DrunkFace (2009-08-14 09:35:01)

13rin
Member
+977|6450

DrunkFace wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

lowing wrote:

Healthcare is not a right.
Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights disagrees with you.
Let me quote that for him.
Article 25.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
    * (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
EDIT: Ohhh I'm sure you'll just love some of the other "Rights" people are entitled too.
Fuck the UN!  Give me mah' Bill of Rights and Constitution any day.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6652|Disaster Free Zone
Yep, Guns are much more important then health care.
13rin
Member
+977|6450

DrunkFace wrote:

Yep, Guns are much more important then health care.
Where did I post a gun>healthcare????
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6652|Disaster Free Zone

DBBrinson1 wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

Yep, Guns are much more important then health care.
Where did I post a gun>healthcare????
About the time you quoted me about something health care specific and said, and I quote.
"Fuck the UN!  Give me mah' Bill of Rights and Constitution any day."
When the UN covers all rights plus more covered in your bill of rights, except the right to bear arms.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6571|132 and Bush

Sorta on topic.. hope Bert Doesn't mind .

damn,
http://www.indecisionforever.com/2009/0 … hypocrisy/
The top Jon Stewart Video.
Talk about ownage .. And I am someone who doesn't support the proposed bills.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Red Forman
Banned
+402|5371

DrunkFace wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

lowing wrote:

Healthcare is not a right.
Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights disagrees with you.
Let me quote that for him.
Article 25.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
    * (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
EDIT: Ohhh I'm sure you'll just love some of the other "Rights" people are entitled too.
The UN?  ahaahahahahahahahahahaha
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6687

Red Forman wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

PureFodder wrote:


Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights disagrees with you.
Let me quote that for him.
Article 25.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
    * (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
EDIT: Ohhh I'm sure you'll just love some of the other "Rights" people are entitled too.
The UN?  ahaahahahahahahahahahaha
I know I know... But your government is a signitory of it, thus they should be responsible for it. But no one really follows the decleration.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6645|Canberra, AUS
If the alternative is doing nothing, I'd rather hear what the plan is tbh.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6521|CH/BR - in UK

Haven't been on BF2s in ages, and I have to say, looking at this thread is downright depressing. I've been following the US's take on healthcare, and the sea of misinformation that's been leaking across the pond... I live in the UK. I'm pretty sure what's shown on US news - not even exclusively right-wing news, but just in general, is not NHS. I'm pretty sure that's the other one... uhm... oh yeah, made up.

Lies travel faster than truth ever will. How can the USA be paying some of the most expensive health care and still have a 30+ rank world wide, whilst the UK's free health care is 17th?

I'm Swiss, and we have health care such as is to be put in place in the USA - a combination of public, and private health care - and you can choose what you want, but there is a cheaper option for those unable to afford it. And we're rich - a lot of us can afford it...

I'm starting to give up on US intelligence in the neocon circles...

-kon
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6622|USA

DrunkFace wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

lowing wrote:

Healthcare is not a right.
Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights disagrees with you.
Let me quote that for him.
Article 25.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
    * (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
EDIT: Ohhh I'm sure you'll just love some of the other "Rights" people are entitled too.
Sorry, the UN does not supersede the US Constitution for US citizens. If the UN wants me to have UHC, then the WORLD, and not just US citizens can damn well pay for it for me.
Narupug
Fodder Mostly
+150|5567|Vacationland

lowing wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

PureFodder wrote:


Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights disagrees with you.
Let me quote that for him.
Article 25.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
    * (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
EDIT: Ohhh I'm sure you'll just love some of the other "Rights" people are entitled too.
Sorry, the UN does not supersede the US Constitution for US citizens. If the UN wants me to have UHC, then the WORLD, and not just US citizens can damn well pay for it for me.
okay then we'll just ask for some monetary help from the richest country in the world, oh wait that's us.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6622|USA

konfusion wrote:

Haven't been on BF2s in ages, and I have to say, looking at this thread is downright depressing. I've been following the US's take on healthcare, and the sea of misinformation that's been leaking across the pond... I live in the UK. I'm pretty sure what's shown on US news - not even exclusively right-wing news, but just in general, is not NHS. I'm pretty sure that's the other one... uhm... oh yeah, made up.

Lies travel faster than truth ever will. How can the USA be paying some of the most expensive health care and still have a 30+ rank world wide, whilst the UK's free health care is 17th?

I'm Swiss, and we have health care such as is to be put in place in the USA - a combination of public, and private health care - and you can choose what you want, but there is a cheaper option for those unable to afford it. And we're rich - a lot of us can afford it...

I'm starting to give up on US intelligence in the neocon circles...

-kon
I admit we need healthcare reform, however, complete govt. is not the answer. the govt. can't even deliver the fucking mail efficiently. While the private sector soars doing so. Any explanation for that, other than fraud waste and abuse on behalf of the govt? Any reason to expect govt. to somehow be different regarding the running of my health care?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6622|USA

Narupug wrote:

lowing wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights disagrees with you.
Let me quote that for him.

EDIT: Ohhh I'm sure you'll just love some of the other "Rights" people are entitled too.
Sorry, the UN does not supersede the US Constitution for US citizens. If the UN wants me to have UHC, then the WORLD, and not just US citizens can damn well pay for it for me.
okay then we'll just ask for some monetary help from the richest country in the world, oh wait that's us.
Sorry, if the UN wants to stick its nose into our national business, and demand my rights for me, then it can pay for it. Every nation within the UN needs to open up the purse strings and contribute to MY health care. If not, then they can shut up about what they think my rights should be, and their pipe dream of a human right declaration can be used for wiping asses.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6592|London, England
"I admit we need healthcare reform, however, complete govt. is not the answer."

So what's the answer then?

(this time I'm genuinely asking cos I want to know what your side thinks the correct solution would be, unless the correct solution is to just leave everything as it is)

Last edited by Mekstizzle (2009-08-15 05:11:28)

SEREVENT
MASSIVE G STAR
+605|6078|Birmingham, UK
Just a little off topic question;

If you don't have insurance in America and you have to have an operation, what happens?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6622|USA

Mekstizzle wrote:

"I admit we need healthcare reform, however, complete govt. is not the answer."

So what's the answer then?

(this time I'm genuinely asking cos I want to know what your side thinks the correct solution would be, unless the correct solution is to just leave everything as it is)
Your question assumes that I am searching for an answer that gives everyone free health care. I am not. For those that have health care, laws are needed to reel in insurance companies from telling doctors how to practice medicine.

Action needs to be taken to bring health costs back down to earth, this included action to stiffle frivolous lawsuits against healthcare providers. (and before you jump on that please note I said frivolous)

Laws need to be passed that protects those that are covered from the red tape insurance companies automatically wrap you up in when filing a claim.

As for the uninsured, they already recieve "free" healthcare since the bill was passed I believe in '68 that says no treatment shall be denied to those without coverage.

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