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Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|4926|SE London

Stephen Hawking: Would supposedly have been left to die under NHS care
https://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01387/stephen-hawking_1387959c.jpg

I don't know how many people have noticed the recent blunder by Investor's Business Daily surrounding healthcare reform. Personally I found it hilarious.

Their article about the dangers of healthcare reform highlighted the NHS and made a point of mentioning that were Stephen Hawking British (which of course he is) he would have died long ago.

People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.
Hawking promptly responded that: "I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS".

The article, now updated, is still full of gross exagerations and straightforward lies. The most obvious of these being their claim that under NICE (a regulatory body for the NHS) regulations 6 months of life is valued at $20000, if care will cost more than that it is alleged that you will not receive care. This is also quite simply untrue.

Investor's Business Daily wrote:

The U.K.'s National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) basically figures out who deserves treatment by using a cost-utility analysis based on the "quality adjusted life year."

One year in perfect health gets you one point. Deductions are taken for blindness, for being in a wheelchair and so on.

The more points you have, the more your life is considered worth saving, and the likelier you are to get care.

The British are praised for spending half as much per capita on medical care. How they do it is another matter. The NICE people say that Britain cannot afford to spend $20,000 to extend a life by six months. So if care will cost $1 more, you get to curl up in a corner and die.
As you can see in the highlighted quote below, this is totally untrue.

The Telegraph wrote:

Allegation: NHS patients over 59 years of age cannot receive heart repairs, stents or bypasses.

Response: A national audit on cardiac surgery showed that one in five of all patients was aged over 75.

Allegation: Women under 25 "not allowed" to be screened for cervical cancer.

Response: Patients in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland regularly screened from the age of 20. In England, women under 25 could be screened if there was judged to be a clinical need.

Allegation: Ted Kennedy, 77, would not be treated for his brain tumour in Britain because he was too old.

Response: "The NHS provides health services on the basis of clinical need irrespective of age," said a Department of Health spokesman.

Allegation: Four in 10 NHS cancer patients do not have access to an oncologist.

Response: Figure is 15 years out of date, said Macmillan Cancer Support. Number of cancer specialists in the NHS has risen by 59.6 per cent since 1997, said the Department of Health.

Allegation: The NHS judges that six months of life are worth $22,750 (£14,000).

Response: "We don't put a limit on the amount the NHS can spend on an individual," said Andrew Dillon, the chief executive of the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (Nice), the Government's drugs rationing body. "The basis of Nice's system of appraising drugs and other treatments is simple: something will be recommended for use if the benefits to patients are worth what the NHS is being asked to pay."
What are people supposed to believe about healthcare reform when much of the criticism leveled at it is just made up lies?

Last edited by Bertster7 (2009-08-13 12:11:10)

Red Forman
Banned
+402|3745
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|4926|SE London

How does that have anything to do with the fact that a number of these news providers are simply lying about this stuff?

An article on this comes out claiming Stephen Hawking would not have survived under the NHS - without even bothering to check whether he is actually British and claims his treatment, which has all been provided by the NHS, has been excellent.

This thread is about the fact that many people, particularly the right, are writing articles on this topic that have absolutely no basis in fact.

I'd find that concerning.
Red Forman
Banned
+402|3745

Bertster7 wrote:

particularly the right, are writing articles on this topic that have absolutely no basis in fact.
not for nothing, but its hard to get the "facts" when the WH can't keep their story straight and senators don't even read the fucking bills.  sure go blame the right.  lol.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|4926|SE London

Red Forman wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

particularly the right, are writing articles on this topic that have absolutely no basis in fact.
not for nothing, but its hard to get the "facts" when the WH can't keep their story straight and senators don't even read the fucking bills.  sure go blame the right.  lol.
I've given an example of multiple blatant lies in an article published in a mainstream right wing publication. I have yet to see such outrageous lies published by a mainstream left wing publication. Until I do see such an article, I feel perfectly justified in blaming the right. If you would care to point me in the direction of major left wing publication lying about this topic, then I'll be happy to read them and will adjust my posts accordingly if they turned out to be printing lies.

I'm not talking about politicians lying, I'm talking about the fabrications surrounding healthcare reform in the media. It would not greatly surprise me to discover that lies are being printed by the left and right about healthcare reform, but so far I've only seen it being done, in a very stupid fashion, by right wing publications.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,792|4976|949

Cybargs wrote:

That's why having a good private and public is good. Or a very good public one, but still with insurance, ala Taiwan.
What?  Did you read the article/post?  This topic really has little do to with the merits of healthcare reform so much as the misinformation being spread about it.  I always find it a great thing when media reports on some issue then people come and question the veracity of the research (or lack thereof).  Unfortunately it doesn't happen often enough.
Red Forman
Banned
+402|3745
There is no plan yet officially.  How can there be lies or facts about it when there isn't one?
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|4926|SE London

Red Forman wrote:

There is no plan yet officially.  How can there be lies or facts about it when there isn't one?
Lies about the dangers of healthcare reform. Scare stories with no basis in fact.
13rin
Member
+977|4824

Bertster7 wrote:

How does that have anything to do with the fact that a number of these news providers are simply lying about this stuff?

An article on this comes out claiming Stephen Hawking would not have survived under the NHS - without even bothering to check whether he is actually British and claims his treatment, which has all been provided by the NHS, has been excellent.

This thread is about the fact that many people, particularly the right, are writing articles on this topic that have absolutely no basis in fact.

I'd find that concerning.
So you've read our proposed health care bills? Didn't think so...  Good thing Hawking was deemed brilliant and a state treasury before his ailment.

Edit: 

Bertster7 wrote:

Red Forman wrote:

There is no plan yet officially.  How can there be lies or facts about it when there isn't one?
Lies about the dangers of healthcare reform. Scare stories with no basis in fact.
Oh but there is:
http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/24/news/ec … a.fortune/

Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2009-08-13 13:17:49)

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|4926|SE London

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

How does that have anything to do with the fact that a number of these news providers are simply lying about this stuff?

An article on this comes out claiming Stephen Hawking would not have survived under the NHS - without even bothering to check whether he is actually British and claims his treatment, which has all been provided by the NHS, has been excellent.

This thread is about the fact that many people, particularly the right, are writing articles on this topic that have absolutely no basis in fact.

I'd find that concerning.
So you've read our proposed health care bills? Didn't think so...
No, I haven't. But since they have nothing to do with this topic, that's beside the point. 

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Good thing Hawking was deemed brilliant and a state treasury before his ailment.
Ah, this is slightly more on topic - what with it being another blatant lie about Hawking and healthcare. Hawking was an undergraduate (aged 21) when he was diagnosed. He received the normal level of state treatment.

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Edit: 

Bertster7 wrote:

Red Forman wrote:

There is no plan yet officially.  How can there be lies or facts about it when there isn't one?
Lies about the dangers of healthcare reform. Scare stories with no basis in fact.
Oh but there is:
http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/24/news/ec … a.fortune/
Again, what does this have to do with this topic?

This topic is about the fact that certain publications are printing what are out and out lies about the dangers of healthcare reform. Not that everything printed about healthcare reform is untrue.
Red Forman
Banned
+402|3745
Christ sake Bert you want to bring up a topic like this and not expect people to talk about what is going on currently?
PureFodder
Member
+225|4630
Notice that the things that they discuss, hip replacements, cataracts etc are primarily conditions that the elderly suffer from. Apparently US Medicare is excellent, if only there was a way to extend that system to the rest of the populace......

When getting information about the healthcare industry from corporate media, just try and concieve how much they stand to loose in advertising revenue if the US adopts a nationalised healthcare sytem. There is no sensible way that you can expect the corporate media to be anything other than completely biased on this issue.

In fact, as there is no legal requirement for corporate news media to be truthful, and a definate legal requirement for them to maximise profits for shareholders, it's questionable whether they could even legally show widespread public support for a nationalised system, as their shareholdes would likely be able to sue them.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|4926|SE London

Red Forman wrote:

Christ sake Bert you want to bring up a topic like this and not expect people to talk about what is going on currently?
It's quite a simple topic. It's about the fact people are printing blatant lies about healthcare reform. It is NOT about the healthcare reform bill, but about media attitudes to it. There are plenty of threads more specifically about the reform bill itself.

I don't see why that is so difficult to understand.

THE MEDIA LIES ABOUT HEALTHCARE REFORM - discuss.
Red Forman
Banned
+402|3745

Bertster7 wrote:

THE MEDIA LIES ABOUT HEALTHCARE REFORM - discuss.
The media has always sucked about everything.  What the hell do you want?
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|4926|SE London

Red Forman wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

THE MEDIA LIES ABOUT HEALTHCARE REFORM - discuss.
The media has always sucked about everything.  What the hell do you want?
Articles based on fact. Possibly a legal requirement for media outlets to print the truth (when presented as such), so they could be held to account.

It is not common for these news outlets to publish direct and obvious lies without retraction or apology. I cannot think of many examples of this happening. But in many instances regarding healthcare reform this is exactly what is happening. It is odd that this should be the case. Purefodder makes some valid points about their potential liabilities and potential loss of advertising revenue.
{M5}Sniper3
Typical white person.
+389|5104|San Antonio, Texas
Hell, even MSNBC talking heads are lying.



Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|4926|SE London

{M5}Sniper3 wrote:

Hell, even MSNBC talking heads are lying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNAawenn7IU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJT0wS8BZJg
Are they? Where in that are they lying (explicitly)?

As far as I am aware, he has never said that. The 2nd clip does not show him saying that. He indicates his preference for the possibility of a single payer system, it is mentioned that this would be the best way of moving to a single payer system, but that's it. That's not lying. Maybe the politicians are all lying through their teeth, I certainly wouldn't be surprised - but the news presenter is not, as far as I am aware (certainly given the evidence provided in your 2nd clip - where he does not say that given 5-10 years the US will move to a single payer system), lying. It does provide evidence that may be where they're heading - but there are a lot of coulds and woulds in there, as you expect from politicians, there is nothing concrete.

I find it hard to believe the US ever would adopt a single payer system - though it does sound like the Democrats may well be leaning that way. The only country using such a system at present is Canada and they have had substantial criticism levelled at them for not allowing for the provision of a private system alongside their public system.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2009-08-13 14:30:49)

-CARNIFEX-[LOC]
Da Blooze
+111|4998
If all of this "socialist agenda" crap makes me go insane, I lose complete faith in my countrymen and humanity in general and shoot myself in the face but am unfortunately left alive but seriously brain damaged, will the new plan cover me?  That's what I want to know...


Seriously though, I had never considered the fact that "big medicine" (pharmaceutics companies, health insurance providers, etc.) might have a vested interest in opposing nationalized healthcare, and would use their influence (i.e. advertising expenditure) to sway media outlets coverage.

Just speaking from personal experience, various people in my office come in from time to time spouting off this-and-that about how the new proposals are going to screw us all over, and it makes me wonder where they got their information, and why they assume that hearing/reading "information" from one source makes their newfound "knowledge" as good as factual. 

Some of the stuff people read (and believe) off of the internet makes me wonder if I should be mad at the media for espousing false information, or mad at the people for being so simple as to believe it.

There aren't enough Walter Cronkites left in this world, and we're well past the days of being able to trust something just because someone in the "news" said/wrote it!
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/12516/Bitch%20Hunter%20Sig.jpg
nickb64
formerly from OC (it's EXACTLY like on tv)[truth]
+77|3955|Greatest Nation on Earth(USA)

Bertster7 wrote:

Red Forman wrote:

The media has always sucked about everything.  What the hell do you want?
Articles based on fact. Possibly a legal requirement for media outlets to print the truth (when presented as such), so they could be held to account.
Then you get into Free Speech issues, lol...

Sad, but true, people will sue for stupid shit, even if they were lying...

Malpractice lawsuit reform should be part of anything they do with regard to healthcare, it is a cause of the high prices...
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,760|4497|what

Bertster7 wrote:

Red Forman wrote:

There is no plan yet officially.  How can there be lies or facts about it when there isn't one?
Lies about the dangers of healthcare reform. Scare stories with no basis in fact.
It how the right always get "information" out there.

Scare tactics and little to no factual content.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png

"coz you a far cry from acclaim nigga ubisoft"
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|4945|132 and Bush

IBD is shit. In nearly every use of the acronym.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|5112

Red Forman wrote:

There is no plan yet officially.  How can there be lies or facts about it when there isn't one?
Ask Newt Gingrich. He is out spreading lies but was caught out by George Stephanopoulos.
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|5061
The MSM up until recently has been so in the tank for Obama... it was ridiculous...
The tide has turned on this healthcare power grab... That's all it really is....
Does anyone think that Obama or Pelosi or even the Republicans care if you have healthcare?
They have awesome private insurance with a dozen top notch companies to choose from.
Are they willing to use the Public healthcare they want to impose on their constituents?  Not a chance.

Govt run healthcare has been tried in Hawaii and cancelled after 8 months... too many people left the private insurance
to use the free(it's not really free) healthcare and it overwhelmed the system in Hawaii...
http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/healthcare-failure/

Massachussets is govt run and also a disaster...
http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/01/mass … -disaster/

People are all hope and change... till it affects their pocket book or coverage...

And they sure don't want the incompetent govt... with failures like the Postal service
Bankrupt medicare and medicaid on their list of bankrupt disasters...

Why don't they fix what we have now...?
80 billion a year in medicaid fraud...
limit frivolous lawsuits...
let there be competition and keep the govt out of it...

Does anyone think that the govt can keep healthcare from being wildly inefficient and not cost way more than even the CBO is predicting?
AmTrak
Medicaid
Medicare
Postal Service

And Obama lost his credibility with the 787 billion dollar pork party...
The world was going to end if it didn't go through immediately...
Well...a couple of months later less than 10 percent has been spent... unemployment is over 9 percent...

and the bottom line is 85 percent of the country have health insurance and are relatively happy
People are not willing to gamble on a govt run healthcare and the polls are reflecting that...

Bush didn't help things i agree... and Obama is over his head on these issues as we are seeing now... The bloom is off the rose.

Jimmy Carter 2.0 has happened faster than i would have predicted... On the other hand the republicans haven't shown me jack
either...

Last edited by [TUF]Catbox (2009-08-13 20:17:36)

Love is the answer
PureFodder
Member
+225|4630

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

The MSM up until recently has been so in the tank for Obama... it was ridiculous...
The tide has turned on this healthcare power grab... That's all it really is....
Does anyone think that Obama or Pelosi or even the Republicans care if you have healthcare?
They have awesome private insurance with a dozen top notch companies to choose from.
Are they willing to use the Public healthcare they want to impose on their constituents?  Not a chance.

Govt run healthcare has been tried in Hawaii and cancelled after 8 months... too many people left the private insurance
to use the free(it's not really free) healthcare and it overwhelmed the system in Hawaii...
http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/healthcare-failure/
So from this we can gather that a public option is hugely popular and people would be willing to drop their private insurance in favour of a public option. The problem of overwhelming the system is easily avoided in a socialised healthcare system as they already know that everyone will be in it.

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

Massachussets is govt run and also a disaster...
http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/01/mass … -disaster/
This guy is happy to utterly misinform you to try and push his views onto you. For example "I lived under the British National Health Service for three years. This “free” health care creates a crippling tax burden for British citizens," yet it actually costs the British populace half the amount it costs Americans per person. Also the crap about waiting times lacks, as per usual, the US wait times. The reason? the US health system doesn't systematically count wait times and nobody factors in the increasing numbers of people that either are forced into avoiding medical care due to costs or are forced into waiting months or even years for those travelling free charitable medical care services that are popping up in the US.

Remember that this type of government run insurance is a long shot from the successful socialised healthcare systems inthe rest of the rich countries like single payer systems.

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

People are all hope and change... till it affects their pocket book or coverage...

And they sure don't want the incompetent govt... with failures like the Postal service
Bankrupt medicare and medicaid on their list of bankrupt disasters...

Why don't they fix what we have now...?
80 billion a year in medicaid fraud...
limit frivolous lawsuits...
let there be competition and keep the govt out of it...

Does anyone think that the govt can keep healthcare from being wildly inefficient and not cost way more than even the CBO is predicting?
AmTrak
Medicaid
Medicare
Postal Service
Competition has been tried and it resulted in a healthcare system that costs twice as much as other rich countries. Medicare was so efficient that ran the private insurers out of the market and the inefficiencies of it mainly stem from the wasteful private system that medicare is anchored to. Frivolous lawsuits add far less than is usually reported to the costs of healthcare and reducing them would activly reduce the healthcare of the US as it will encourage people and companies to commit more fraud, sell more ineffective and harmful drugs etc as the potential price for harming huge numbers of people gets reduced making harming people a better business option. It's happening even under the current system. Any reduction would certainly increse this.

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

And Obama lost his credibility with the 787 billion dollar pork party...
The world was going to end if it didn't go through immediately...
Well...a couple of months later less than 10 percent has been spent... unemployment is over 9 percent...
Actually the majority of the stimulus has been spent in the form of tax reductions and incresed social security payments. The stimulus was widely critisized as being too small to have the desired effects and has had marked positive effects on the economy. If you thought that the stimulus was going to instantly rebound the economy to the pre-housing bubble burst condition then you very much missed the point of it. It was to reduce the worst effects of the crash, which it did do, it was never expected to be a miracle cure.

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

and the bottom line is 85 percent of the country have health insurance and are relatively happy
People are not willing to gamble on a govt run healthcare and the polls are reflecting that...

Bush didn't help things i agree... and Obama is over his head on these issues as we are seeing now... The bloom is off the rose.

Jimmy Carter 2.0 has happened faster than i would have predicted... On the other hand the republicans haven't shown me jack
either...
remember that most people get their information from the corporate media that we have already noted is almost certainly going to be wildly biased on the issue. If people had open, honest information about the issue the polls would likely be a lot different. At the moment people inthe US seem to be choosing between the current system (cue images of a fluttering flag and a crying eagle) and the evil commie system that will deny everyone any healthcare, cost twice as much and eat your babies.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|4996|USA

Bertster7 wrote:

How does that have anything to do with the fact that a number of these news providers are simply lying about this stuff?

An article on this comes out claiming Stephen Hawking would not have survived under the NHS - without even bothering to check whether he is actually British and claims his treatment, which has all been provided by the NHS, has been excellent.

This thread is about the fact that many people, particularly the right, are writing articles on this topic that have absolutely no basis in fact.

I'd find that concerning.
It seems you are right, but the thing is, the truth is also being hidden by those pushing for a NHS. For me it needs to go no further than my belief in not having to pay for everyone in this country, including illegal aliens. Healthcare is not a right.

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