Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6859|London, England
Found this on Digg:

WAUSAU, Wis. -- An American flag flown upside down as a protest in a northern Wisconsin village was seized by police before a Fourth of July parade and the businessman who flew it - an Iraq war veteran - claims the officers trespassed and stole his property.
https://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2009/07/10/PH2009071002731.jpg

The American Civil Liberties Union of Wisconsin is considering legal action against the village of Crivitz for violating Vito Congine Jr.'s' First Amendment rights, Executive Director Chris Ahmuty said.

"It is not often that you see something this blatant," Ahmuty said.

In mid-June, Congine, 46, began flying the flag upside down - an accepted way to signal distress - outside the restaurant he wants to open in Crivitz, a village of about 1,000 people some 65 miles north of Green Bay.

He said his distress is likely bankruptcy because the village board refused to grant him a liquor license after he spent nearly $200,000 to buy and remodel a downtown building for an Italian supper club.

Congine's upside-down-flag represents distress to him; to others in town, it represents disrespect of the flag.

Hours before a Fourth of July parade, four police officers went to Congine's property and removed the flag under the advice of Marinette County District Attorney Allen Brey.

Neighbor Steven Klein watched in disbelief.

"I said, 'What are you doing?' Klein said. "They said, 'It is none of your business.'"

The next day, police returned the flag.

Brey declined comment Friday.

Marinette County Sheriff Jim Kanikula said it was not illegal to fly the flag upside down but people were upset and it was the Fourth of July.

"It is illegal to cause a disruption," he said.

The parade went on without any problems, Kanikula said.

Village President John Deschane, 60, an Army veteran who served in Vietnam, said many people in town believe it's disrespectful to fly the flag upside down.

"If he wants to protest, let him protest but find a different way to do it," Deschane said.

Congine, a Marine veteran who served in Iraq in 2004, said he intends to keep flying the flag upside down.

"It is pretty bad when I go and fight a tyrannical government somewhere else," Congine said, "and then I come home to find it right here at my front door."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … rer=reddit

--

I dunno. I'm split on this. In my view, I think it's a creative way to protest. I didn't know that an upside down flag is a signall for distress, and that he's doing it to show his financial situation and so it's linked in with the whole bad economy thing. Plus the guy's a veteran so it probably would be unwise to question his...patriotness...

Oh yeah that's the other bit, did the Police have the right to do that. They say they could because it was causing a "disruption"...

--

You'd probably get cases of this here, just that nobody ever realises whether our flag is upside down or not. Although there are some small things to look out for to see whether it's the right way round or not. (of which I don't know/care)

Last edited by Mekstizzle (2009-07-13 09:25:55)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|6889|USA
The govt. was wrong. His rights were violated and he should have a case.
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6738|so randum

lowing wrote:

The govt. was wrong. His rights were violated and he should have a case.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
imortal
Member
+240|6903|Austin, TX

FatherTed wrote:

lowing wrote:

The govt. was wrong. His rights were violated and he should have a case.
Isn't Lowing and FatherTed agreeing on anything one of the signs of the apocolyse?

I agree with them both, by the way.  Even if I don't like what he did (and I don't), he had the right to do it.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6889|USA

imortal wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

lowing wrote:

The govt. was wrong. His rights were violated and he should have a case.
Isn't Lowing and FatherTed agreeing on anything one of the signs of the apocolyse?

I agree with them both, by the way.  Even if I don't like what he did (and I don't), he had the right to do it.
Yeah I think that may be another first in BF2S history.

Actually I love what he did. It is a message, and an appropriate one, it is not meant as disrespect to the flag, the nation or the community.
Swan
The town bike
+54|5685
its just a scrap of fabric, do whatever with it.
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6919|Disaster Free Zone

Swan wrote:

its just a scrap of fabric, do whatever with it.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6889|USA

Swan wrote:

its just a scrap of fabric, do whatever with it.
Yeah, so is money, and gold, hell it is just metal form the earth, just like iron ore. Difference is, it means something regardless. We put value into things, and our flag has a value in its meaning.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6767|Global Command
The fact that they returned the flag proves they were wrong in taking it.

Liquor licenses are sometimes only granted when palms are greased. Banna republic.
Swan
The town bike
+54|5685

lowing wrote:

Swan wrote:

its just a scrap of fabric, do whatever with it.
Yeah, so is money, and gold, hell it is just metal form the earth, just like iron ore. Difference is, it means something regardless. We put value into things, and our flag has a value in its meaning.
You can buy good and services with money and gold. You cannot with meaning.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6889|USA

Swan wrote:

lowing wrote:

Swan wrote:

its just a scrap of fabric, do whatever with it.
Yeah, so is money, and gold, hell it is just metal form the earth, just like iron ore. Difference is, it means something regardless. We put value into things, and our flag has a value in its meaning.
You can buy good and services with money and gold. You cannot with meaning.
this is not an issue where monetary value is in question, but symbolic value. Deny it all you want, it changes nothing
Swan
The town bike
+54|5685

lowing wrote:

Swan wrote:

lowing wrote:


Yeah, so is money, and gold, hell it is just metal form the earth, just like iron ore. Difference is, it means something regardless. We put value into things, and our flag has a value in its meaning.
You can buy good and services with money and gold. You cannot with meaning.
this is not an issue where monetary value is in question, but symbolic value. Deny it all you want, it changes nothing
i agree, a scrap of cloth it changes nothing.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6945|67.222.138.85

lowing wrote:

Swan wrote:

its just a scrap of fabric, do whatever with it.
Yeah, so is money, and gold, hell it is just metal form the earth, just like iron ore. Difference is, it means something regardless. We put value into things, and our flag has a value in its meaning.
^

Swan wrote:

lowing wrote:

Swan wrote:

its just a scrap of fabric, do whatever with it.
Yeah, so is money, and gold, hell it is just metal form the earth, just like iron ore. Difference is, it means something regardless. We put value into things, and our flag has a value in its meaning.
You can buy good and services with money and gold. You cannot with meaning.
lol.

Money and gold do have a meaning, that is why you can buy something with them. Gold is a rather arbitrary standard based primarily on rarity. The fiat money itself has no intrinsic value, only the value we place in it. So you can exactly only buy goods and services with meaning, the only way around it is to barter.

---

I think he's a prick for flying the flag upside down. That is meant as an actual distress call - oh shit my boat is sinking kind of distress call, not wahhhhh my life and my country's politics are fucked up distress call. Of course I agree completely to his right to protest, but I don't admire him for the manner he chose to do it.

As an aside, he should have gotten the liquor license before he dropped $200k on renovations. Just poor planning.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6889|USA

Swan wrote:

lowing wrote:

Swan wrote:


You can buy good and services with money and gold. You cannot with meaning.
this is not an issue where monetary value is in question, but symbolic value. Deny it all you want, it changes nothing
i agree, a scrap of cloth it changes nothing.
I will let it go, I am not about ot continue to argue that a flag holds symbolic meaning to its citizens. If that fact eludes you then so be it.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6945|67.222.138.85
I want to though.

/tag team
Swan
The town bike
+54|5685

lowing wrote:

Swan wrote:

lowing wrote:


this is not an issue where monetary value is in question, but symbolic value. Deny it all you want, it changes nothing
i agree, a scrap of cloth it changes nothing.
I will let it go, I am not about ot continue to argue that a flag holds symbolic meaning to its citizens. If that fact eludes you then so be it.
It does lowing, i get it, but to squander time away litigating emotions over a symbol in the "land of freedom" is a farce. Freedom will often bite the hand that feeds it.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6889|USA

Swan wrote:

lowing wrote:

Swan wrote:


i agree, a scrap of cloth it changes nothing.
I will let it go, I am not about ot continue to argue that a flag holds symbolic meaning to its citizens. If that fact eludes you then so be it.
It does lowing, i get it, but to squander time away litigating emotions over a symbol in the "land of freedom" is a farce. Freedom will often bite the hand that feeds it.
It is not litigating emotions, it is litigating rights and the govts. treading on them.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6889|USA

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I want to though.

/tag team
you're in
Swan
The town bike
+54|5685
There is such a hypocrisy when it comes to freedom of speech. You guys are debating out the emotional value the flag has for you, in other words a bias. Put those energies in how you treat your brethren rather than an token (unless you are catholic lol).

As for the "distress call" how would you rank it in recognition and effective against say, coaling 911.

Last edited by Swan (2009-07-13 11:31:13)

Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6945|67.222.138.85

Swan wrote:

lowing wrote:

Swan wrote:

i agree, a scrap of cloth it changes nothing.
I will let it go, I am not about ot continue to argue that a flag holds symbolic meaning to its citizens. If that fact eludes you then so be it.
It does lowing, i get it, but to squander time away litigating emotions over a symbol in the "land of freedom" is a farce. Freedom will often bite the hand that feeds it.
You fail to understand the importance (necessity?) of nationalism. In the long term that is really the only thing keeping any country from descending into anarchy, and you do that by a) setting up a respectable system of government in the first place, or at least one easily enforced and b) either keeping the populace proud to be a member of their country or utterly under your thumb. Unless you would prefer Orwellian style control, keeping national symbols near and dear to our heart is a very important aspect of national cohesion.

Personal freedom still takes precedence, but taking similar cases to the courts is not "squandering time away".
Swan
The town bike
+54|5685

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Swan wrote:

lowing wrote:


I will let it go, I am not about ot continue to argue that a flag holds symbolic meaning to its citizens. If that fact eludes you then so be it.
It does lowing, i get it, but to squander time away litigating emotions over a symbol in the "land of freedom" is a farce. Freedom will often bite the hand that feeds it.
You fail to understand the importance (necessity?) of nationalism. In the long term that is really the only thing keeping any country from descending into anarchy, and you do that by a) setting up a respectable system of government in the first place, or at least one easily enforced and b) either keeping the populace proud to be a member of their country or utterly under your thumb. Unless you would prefer Orwellian style control, keeping national symbols near and dear to our heart is a very important aspect of national cohesion.

Personal freedom still takes precedence, but taking similar cases to the courts is not "squandering time away".
Believe me young citizen, I understand more nationalism than you know. Nationalism is a double edge sword.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6945|67.222.138.85

Swan wrote:

There is such a hypocrisy when it comes to freedom of speech. You guys are debating out the emotional value the flag has for you, in other words a bias. Put those energies in how you treat your brethren rather than an token (unless you are catholic lol).
Every American is biased because it's the American flag. There is a big difference between state sponsored prayer in schools and state sponsored pledge of allegiance to the flag because we are in America.

It's a perfectly legitimate national bias, one that has to be (and is) recognized by the state.

Swan wrote:

coaling 911
what?
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6945|67.222.138.85

Swan wrote:

Believe me young citizen, I understand more nationalism than you know. Nationalism is a double edge sword.
cop out
Swan
The town bike
+54|5685

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Swan wrote:

There is such a hypocrisy when it comes to freedom of speech. You guys are debating out the emotional value the flag has for you, in other words a bias. Put those energies in how you treat your brethren rather than an token (unless you are catholic lol).
Every American is biased because it's the American flag. There is a big difference between state sponsored prayer in schools and state sponsored pledge of allegiance to the flag because we are in America.

It's a perfectly legitimate national bias, one that has to be (and is) recognized by the state.

Swan wrote:

coaling 911
what?
My apologies.  A typo. "calling" 911
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6884
Well it seems like it should be illegal to do that unless you're in actual distress but then again how much distress can you be in if you have time to fly your flag upside down. Kinda like calling 911 for fun but in a less extreme way.

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