BF2S Forums Interview with the Vampire

Kmarion wrote:

This was the stage BEFORE the attacks.

Carter Doctrine wrote:

The Carter Doctrine was a policy proclaimed by President of the United States Jimmy Carter in his State of the Union Address on January 23 1980, which stated that the United States would use military force if necessary to defend its national interests (OIL) in the Persian Gulf region. The doctrine was a response to the 1979 invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union, and was intended to deter the Soviet Union—the Cold War adversary of the United States—from seeking hegemony in the Persian Gulf. After stating that Soviet troops in Afghanistan posed "a grave threat to the free movement of Middle East oil,"

Iraq Liberation Act wrote:

The Act declared that it was the Policy of the United States to support "regime change." The Act was passed 360-38 in the U.S. House of Representatives and by unanimous consent in the Senate. US President Bill Clinton signed the bill into law on October 31, 1998. The law's stated purpose was: "to establish a program to support a transition to democracy in Iraq." Specifically, Congress made findings of past Iraqi military actions in violation of International Law and that Iraq had denied entry of United Nations Special Commission on Iraq (UNSCOM) inspectors into its country to inspect for weapons of mass destruction. Congress found: "It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime." On December 16, 1998, President Bill Clinton mandated Operation Desert Fox, a major four-day bombing campaign on Iraqi targets.

This was actually cited in the Iraq war resolution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENAV_UoIfgc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0f5u_0ytUs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h6gehCPvpk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JE48XHKG64

Important points to remember.

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine wrote:

i dunno turq.  our old strategy was the old business saying.  if everyone is mining for gold, we want to be the ones selling the pick axes.  we tried that.  didnt work too well.

The reason it didn't work is that we underestimated how crazy Saddam was.  We thought we could continue using him as an antagonist for Iran, but it was clear he was willing to attack our allies like Kuwait.  Once that happened, the air strikes eventually became our holding action.

That doesn't render the original strategy invalid.

I don't buy that Turq. We knew more about Saddam than our government would like us to know. The problem is our government never thinks two steps ahead.

Last edited by Turquoise (2009-07-06 20:17:21)

ATG wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine wrote:

i dunno turq.  our old strategy was the old business saying.  if everyone is mining for gold, we want to be the ones selling the pick axes.  we tried that.  didnt work too well.

The reason it didn't work is that we underestimated how crazy Saddam was.  We thought we could continue using him as an antagonist for Iran, but it was clear he was willing to attack our allies like Kuwait.  Once that happened, the air strikes eventually became our holding action.

That doesn't render the original strategy invalid.

I'd be curious to know what corporations or nations were whispering " hey Sadam, lots of oil in Kuwait. "

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine wrote:

lets get to the fun part of this.  everyone blames neocons and bush.  we over the years have proved it wasnt just those two parties (like kmar has shown).  yet you all dismiss it.  what the fuck.  are you guys blind?

I don't.  There is a hawkish streak in both parties.  The only difference is that the Democrats are usually better at playing it off.

Putting international approval first is the best strategy for "tolerable militance."

Kmarion wrote:

1) When the chips were down Clinton did not seek UN approval. Bush also attempted to play the UN game.
2) Clinton attacked with the goal of taking out Saddam (See his liberation ACT).

These plans were the same except for the fact that the attacks that Clinton witnessed were minor in comparison to 9/11.

My point is that this policy of intervention was set in place a long time ago, and that it is not a left/right exclusive.

Kmarion wrote:

Slick Willy.. we know..lol. Clinton, Reagan, and Obama are the best political speakers I have ever heard. Regardless of how you actually feel about them.

Kmarion wrote:

usmarine wrote:

pffftt..... BS.  didnt happen.  some of us remember this stuff.  sadly, the current college kids suck on the tit of their douchebag college prof who fails to mention this stuff.  i love you kmar.  btw, how are the purex sheets?

They work but my clothes don't smell of April freshness ..lol A minor inconvenience.

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine wrote:

fair point.  but, my wwii example still stands tbh.  i guess we shall see.

WW2 clearly was in our best interests.  I don't see how your analogy applies.

Turquoise wrote:

We thought we could continue using him as an antagonist for Iran, but it was clear he was willing to attack our allies like Kuwait.

ATG wrote:

I'd be curious to know what corporations or nations were whispering " hey Sadam, lots of oil in Kuwait. "

wiki wrote:

On Wednesday July 25, 1990, the U.S. Ambassador in Iraq, April Glaspie, asked the Iraqi high command to explain the military preparations in progress, including the massing of Iraqi troops near the border. The American ambassador declared to her Iraqi interlocutor that Washington, “inspired by the friendship and not by confrontation, does not have an opinion” on the disagreement which opposes Kuwait to Iraq, stating "we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts". She also let Saddam Hussein know that the U.S. did not intend "to start an economic war against Iraq". These statements may have caused Saddam to believe he had received a diplomatic green light from the United States to invade Kuwait (New York Times, September 23, 1990).

Dilbert_X wrote:

wiki wrote:

On Wednesday July 25, 1990, the U.S. Ambassador in Iraq, April Glaspie, asked the Iraqi high command to explain the military preparations in progress, including the massing of Iraqi troops near the border. The American ambassador declared to her Iraqi interlocutor that Washington, “inspired by the friendship and not by confrontation, does not have an opinion” on the disagreement which opposes Kuwait to Iraq, stating "we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts". She also let Saddam Hussein know that the U.S. did not intend "to start an economic war against Iraq". These statements may have caused Saddam to believe he had received a diplomatic green light from the United States to invade Kuwait (New York Times, September 23, 1990).

That was easy.

People need to watch what they say.
Saddam took it to be a green light to attack.

"Obviously, I didn't think, and nobody else did, that the Iraqis were going to take all of Kuwait."
In April 1991 Glaspie testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. She said that at the July 25 meeting she had "repeatedly warned Iraqi President Saddam Hussein against using force to settle his dispute with Kuwait." She also said that Saddam had lied to her by denying he would invade Kuwait. Asked to explain how Saddam could have interpreted her comments as implying U.S. approval for the invasion of Kuwait, she replied: "We foolishly did not realize he [Saddam] was stupid." In July 1991 State Department spokesperson Richard Boucher said at a press briefing:“We have faith in Ambassador Glaspie's reporting. She sent us cables on her meetings based on notes that were made after the meeting. She also provided five hours or more of testimony in front of the Committee about the series of meetings that she had, including this meeting with Saddam Hussein.”


The cables that Glaspie sent from Iraq about her meeting with Saddam are no longer classified. Glaspie's cable on her meeting with Saddam reports that President George H.W. Bush "had instructed her to broaden and deepen our relations with Iraq." Saddam, in turn, offered "warm greetings" to Bush and was "surely sincere" about not wanting war, the cable said.

Beduin wrote:

We gave him the "green light" because we need to be there.
As a bonus we get a bunch of stupid arab countries thinking we saved them.