BF2S Forums Its been 2 months.

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

lol.. that's all you got?

Tell you what hot shot, we'll tally it up when and if Obama makes it 8 years.

That's assuming I want Obama there 8 years.

You've got to see where I'm coming from. It's not very impressive to compare 2 months of fail with 8 years of fail. Of course you're going to have more material. I was simply saying we already knew how much Americans liked to complain about their leaders.

True, but the difference right now is that the complaining against Obama doesn't seem to involve much in the way of solutions.

We seem to be able to agree that bailouts are bad, but what alternatives have actually been promoted by the GOP?

Plenty of alternatives were given against Bush's policies. (almost all of them were ignored, but that's beside the point)

Compared with 8 years ago:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/1539/

January 2001
20    On the day of George W. Bush’s inauguration, Chief of Staff Andrew Card issues a sixty-day moratorium halting all new health, safety, and environmental regulations issued in the final days of the Clinton administration.
23    On the twenty-eighth anniversary of the Roe v. Wade decision, Bush reinstates the “global gag rule” barring U.S. funding for abortion counseling abroad.
February 2001
5    Bush suspends Clinton’s “roadless rule” protecting nearly sixty million acres of forests from logging and road-building.
17    Bush signs four anti-union executive orders, including measures to prohibit “project labor agreements” at federal construction sites and to remove job protections for union employees whose companies lose federal contracts.
26    Senate Republicans introduce a bill to open up the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil exploration.
March 2001
7    At the urging of President Bush, Congress repeals ergonomic regulations designed to protect workers from repetitive-stress injuries.
9    Bush issues an executive order to prevent mechanics at Northwest Airlines from going on strike.
14    Bush abandons his campaign pledge to regulate carbon dioxide emissions from power plants.
20    Bush administration moves to overturn a Clinton regulation reducing the allowable level of arsenic in drinking water.
28    Bush backs out of Kyoto treaty on global warming.

Turquoise wrote:

True, but the difference right now is that the complaining against Obama doesn't seem to involve much in the way of solutions.

Goddam 24hr karma rule.

OrangeHound wrote:

there are many economists who believe that government actions are just simply pointless ... the economy will do what the economy will do.

* points to user title

Intervention has killed America's capitalism status. I agree some was necessary, but the amount of bail-outs etc are just ridiculous. It's the next-generation, and the subsequent generation's money down the drain. But there has been one upside to this recession, I can see green becoming a lot more vivid.

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

usmarine wrote:

what?

Eight years of affirmation wasn't enough.

There were plenty of alternatives given for the Iraq War.  Like not invading.

There were plenty of alternatives to No Child Left Behind.  Like not implementing it.

There were plenty of alternatives to Gitmo.  Like following the due process of law.

There were plenty of alternatives to Michael Brown as head of FEMA.  Like someone actually competent.

There were plenty of alternatives to the Patriot Act.  Like respecting the Constitution.

Need I list any more?

A) not really.  illegal fly zones and oil for food scams could only last so long and you know it.  you would just be deferring the problem.


B) agree to disagree


C) and the new Treasury Secretary?  I cant wait for your response to this one.


D) You think the Patriot act is bad?  Govt is going to be right outside your door and in ur base by the time obama gets down.

OrangeHound wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

.... any fiscal or monetary change takes about 12-18 months before you see any changes to the economy. Anyone who says these bailouts have not worked either have no idea or are just sprouting propaganda. If you expected or want instantaneous results please move to fairly land.

I'm spouting a fantasy?

Every government manipulation is based on theory, and the dynamic effects are highly disputable.  The bottom line with a market-based economy is that it thrives when people and companies spend, and it recedes when spending doesn't happen.  That's it, pure and simple.

Our current economic situation is based on fear:  lenders, individuals, and companies are all in a retreat mode ... preserving capital, avoiding spending.  Fear will eventually release even if the government doesn't get involved simply because bargain hunters rich in cash will begin investing when they believe the bottom has hit ...

answer my PM a hole

OrangeHound wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

.... any fiscal or monetary change takes about 12-18 months before you see any changes to the economy. Anyone who says these bailouts have not worked either have no idea or are just sprouting propaganda. If you expected or want instantaneous results please move to fairly land.

I'm spouting a fantasy?

Every government manipulation is based on theory, and the dynamic effects are highly disputable.  The bottom line with a market-based economy is that it thrives when people and companies spend, and it recedes when spending doesn't happen.  That's it, pure and simple.

Our current economic situation is based on fear:  lenders, individuals, and companies are all in a retreat mode ... preserving capital, avoiding spending.  Fear will eventually release even if the government doesn't get involved simply because bargain hunters rich in cash will begin investing when they believe the bottom has hit ...

If you want to argue that the stimulus plans wont work (in the future) using accepted economic theory then be my guest. But to claim they haven't worked and/or they wont work without anything to back you up is 'fanciful'. I also know perfectly well how the economy works, and keeping millions of people employed is not a bad thing, it also seems to help confidence and increase spending.

usmarine wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Eight years of affirmation wasn't enough.

There were plenty of alternatives given for the Iraq War.  Like not invading.

There were plenty of alternatives to No Child Left Behind.  Like not implementing it.

There were plenty of alternatives to Gitmo.  Like following the due process of law.

There were plenty of alternatives to Michael Brown as head of FEMA.  Like someone actually competent.

There were plenty of alternatives to the Patriot Act.  Like respecting the Constitution.

Need I list any more?

A) not really.  illegal fly zones and oil for food scams could only last so long and you know it.  you would just be deferring the problem.


B) agree to disagree


C) and the new Treasury Secretary?  I cant wait for your response to this one.


D) You think the Patriot act is bad?  Govt is going to be right outside your door and in ur base by the time obama gets down.

A)There's no point to enforcing resolutions that most of the world doesn't want to enforce.

C) I think Geithner should resign.  I'm not a fan of Eric Holder either.

D) Really?  We'll see about that.

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

There were plenty of alternatives given for the Iraq War.  Like not invading.

There were plenty of alternatives to No Child Left Behind.  Like not implementing it.

There were plenty of alternatives to Gitmo.  Like following the due process of law.

There were plenty of alternatives to Michael Brown as head of FEMA.  Like someone actually competent.

There were plenty of alternatives to the Patriot Act.  Like respecting the Constitution.

Need I list any more?

A) not really.  illegal fly zones and oil for food scams could only last so long and you know it.  you would just be deferring the problem.


B) agree to disagree


C) and the new Treasury Secretary?  I cant wait for your response to this one.


D) You think the Patriot act is bad?  Govt is going to be right outside your door and in ur base by the time obama gets down.

A)There's no point to enforcing resolutions that most of the world doesn't want to enforce.

C) I think Geithner should resign.  I'm not a fan of Eric Holder either.

D) Really?  We'll see about that.

A)  too bad, they agreed to them and signed their names to it.

Cybargs wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

A)There's no point to enforcing resolutions that most of the world doesn't want to enforce.

Then wtf was the point of having an UN if they won't do jack, someone's gotta get their hands dirty. NATO is too weak to do shit, look at Bosnia, it was US who fucking entered it first, while it was in Europes backyard.

I'm not exactly a big proponent of the U.N.  I find it to be mostly useless.  My point was, if you're going to invade a country, the reasoning should involve more than just a resolution that's not even being honored by the organization that made it.

Turquoise wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

A)There's no point to enforcing resolutions that most of the world doesn't want to enforce.

Then wtf was the point of having an UN if they won't do jack, someone's gotta get their hands dirty. NATO is too weak to do shit, look at Bosnia, it was US who fucking entered it first, while it was in Europes backyard.

I'm not exactly a big proponent of the U.N.  I find it to be mostly useless.  My point was, if you're going to invade a country, the reasoning should involve more than just a resolution that's not even being honored by the organization that made it.

Agree. The reconstruction fucked up though, wouldve been better if it was managed a bit more.

AussieReaper wrote:

Compared with 8 years ago:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/1539/

January 2001
20    On the day of George W. Bush’s inauguration, Chief of Staff Andrew Card issues a sixty-day moratorium halting all new health, safety, and environmental regulations issued in the final days of the Clinton administration.
23    On the twenty-eighth anniversary of the Roe v. Wade decision, Bush reinstates the “global gag rule” barring U.S. funding for abortion counseling abroad.
February 2001
5    Bush suspends Clinton’s “roadless rule” protecting nearly sixty million acres of forests from logging and road-building.
17    Bush signs four anti-union executive orders, including measures to prohibit “project labor agreements” at federal construction sites and to remove job protections for union employees whose companies lose federal contracts.
26    Senate Republicans introduce a bill to open up the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil exploration.
March 2001
7    At the urging of President Bush, Congress repeals ergonomic regulations designed to protect workers from repetitive-stress injuries.
9    Bush issues an executive order to prevent mechanics at Northwest Airlines from going on strike.
14    Bush abandons his campaign pledge to regulate carbon dioxide emissions from power plants.
20    Bush administration moves to overturn a Clinton regulation reducing the allowable level of arsenic in drinking water.
28    Bush backs out of Kyoto treaty on global warming.

Some of Bush's greatest hits.

Scream how horrible it is until you get your pork-ridden appropriations railroaded through Congress. Then tell us how it isn't all that bad. Ensure the press doesn't point out the inconsistencies.

Scream about fiscal responsibility and fearmongering while scaring the public into believing that your pork-ridden appropriations are the only option and they must be enacted immediately or the world as we know it is going to end. Double the deficit and spend more than any other President in history in your first two months. Then tell us that it isn't all that bad. Ensure the press doesn't point out the inconsistencies.

Hmmm...I'm detecting a pattern here.

Here's hoping for change we can believe in.