What is SERE?S3v3N wrote:
...wow you got water boarded at SERE?usmarine wrote:
so because he was water boarded he lied? awesome assumption there from you all. quite sad really. i know in our little water boarding exercise in SERE school, you lied. then, they verified that you lied, and water boarded you till you spilled the beans. keep dismissing it for all i care. i know how it works.Jenspm wrote:
I'm pretty sure I'd confess anything if I was "waterboarded".
We got the shit beat out of us.
Dilbert are you being serious? Who said they are going to attack? Uhh maybe when they were shooting at western troops (already mentioned above) maybe the history of violence against the West. But that's not enough fact for you is it?
We'll have a ton of evidence like in a US or UK court case right? I mean we can go through the hundreds or thousands of brass on the street and pick out that specific guy's, trace it back to him, do all of the forensics on hundreds of enemy combatants in a hostile territory. There is a difference between insurgents, terrorist, and civilian crooks and murders. And because it is nearly impossible to do forensics in a war zone we have to release them do to lack of evidence. And when we try to extract information more and more methods are labeled as torture: sleep deprivation, waterboarding, pretty soon solitary confinement will be labeled as torture at the current rate.
To M3thod, read it. I do expect you to read it because then you might be a little bit more educated in the facts. I left weak points in that post because I want to see if you can actually debate or if you are going to continue on your own little wavelength with statistical odds of being killed in an attack and saying that the West was not attacked. Yes your individual risk of dying in a terrorist attack is significantly low [thanks to intelligence and military services] but attacking the World Trade Towers had significant economic impacts on the economy [recovery, cleaning, rebuilding, loss of records, loss of capital, loss of workforce, surrounding area shut down] same as Madrid's subway attack [reduction in transportation, recovery thru rebuilding, fear of using public transit] as well as the fear it instills in the common citizen for a period of time which generally translates into a shell shock reduction in spending.
To whoever else it was. The West, the US, UK, EU ARE MAINTAINING A PRESENCE IN THE MIDDLE EAST. Ok, now that we have re-established this point yet again let's move on to why again. Petroleum makes the world go round, without it you will see economies and way of life grind to a halt. You take advantage of it and yet criticize it at the same time. You have your laptop, appliances, vehicles, clothes, and other items that make your life easier. You have food at relatively cheap prices because the material needed to farm it is cheaper, transporting it is cheaper. I know you don't like the idea that you might be the cause of our continuing presence around the world but your quality of life depends on it. AND AGAIN the extremist Islamic fundamentalist have repeatedly attacked Western Countries in the West. In very recent memory 9/11, London, Madrid [AGAIN].
Yes it is deplorable that people take advantage of one another in the world. I would be happy if the world had come about evenly and everyone had made a fair trade. Unfortunately resources have for centuries have been taken at the tip of a sword, today it is not nearly that violent, although at times it can escalate. There is international trade that keeps the markets roughly even. Unfortunately again people go through and are driven by other motives such as religion, greed, power, money and move to either horde their resources or take others without giving anything back. Currently the dominate Middle Eastern culture does not like the West therefore would more than likely either significantly increase the price of resources to artificial levels robbing the West of money or cut off the supply all together. The current culture in the Middle East does not mesh with Western culture, it does not assimilate [virtually] anything but military and medical advancement without restrictions for their own people to keep them under control/protect them, etc etc.
Is this still too much to read?
We'll have a ton of evidence like in a US or UK court case right? I mean we can go through the hundreds or thousands of brass on the street and pick out that specific guy's, trace it back to him, do all of the forensics on hundreds of enemy combatants in a hostile territory. There is a difference between insurgents, terrorist, and civilian crooks and murders. And because it is nearly impossible to do forensics in a war zone we have to release them do to lack of evidence. And when we try to extract information more and more methods are labeled as torture: sleep deprivation, waterboarding, pretty soon solitary confinement will be labeled as torture at the current rate.
To M3thod, read it. I do expect you to read it because then you might be a little bit more educated in the facts. I left weak points in that post because I want to see if you can actually debate or if you are going to continue on your own little wavelength with statistical odds of being killed in an attack and saying that the West was not attacked. Yes your individual risk of dying in a terrorist attack is significantly low [thanks to intelligence and military services] but attacking the World Trade Towers had significant economic impacts on the economy [recovery, cleaning, rebuilding, loss of records, loss of capital, loss of workforce, surrounding area shut down] same as Madrid's subway attack [reduction in transportation, recovery thru rebuilding, fear of using public transit] as well as the fear it instills in the common citizen for a period of time which generally translates into a shell shock reduction in spending.
To whoever else it was. The West, the US, UK, EU ARE MAINTAINING A PRESENCE IN THE MIDDLE EAST. Ok, now that we have re-established this point yet again let's move on to why again. Petroleum makes the world go round, without it you will see economies and way of life grind to a halt. You take advantage of it and yet criticize it at the same time. You have your laptop, appliances, vehicles, clothes, and other items that make your life easier. You have food at relatively cheap prices because the material needed to farm it is cheaper, transporting it is cheaper. I know you don't like the idea that you might be the cause of our continuing presence around the world but your quality of life depends on it. AND AGAIN the extremist Islamic fundamentalist have repeatedly attacked Western Countries in the West. In very recent memory 9/11, London, Madrid [AGAIN].
Yes it is deplorable that people take advantage of one another in the world. I would be happy if the world had come about evenly and everyone had made a fair trade. Unfortunately resources have for centuries have been taken at the tip of a sword, today it is not nearly that violent, although at times it can escalate. There is international trade that keeps the markets roughly even. Unfortunately again people go through and are driven by other motives such as religion, greed, power, money and move to either horde their resources or take others without giving anything back. Currently the dominate Middle Eastern culture does not like the West therefore would more than likely either significantly increase the price of resources to artificial levels robbing the West of money or cut off the supply all together. The current culture in the Middle East does not mesh with Western culture, it does not assimilate [virtually] anything but military and medical advancement without restrictions for their own people to keep them under control/protect them, etc etc.
Is this still too much to read?
Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape training12/f/taiwan wrote:
What is SERE?S3v3N wrote:
...wow you got water boarded at SERE?usmarine wrote:
so because he was water boarded he lied? awesome assumption there from you all. quite sad really. i know in our little water boarding exercise in SERE school, you lied. then, they verified that you lied, and water boarded you till you spilled the beans. keep dismissing it for all i care. i know how it works.
We got the shit beat out of us.
Malloy must go
Dude. Understand that I am totally on your side and I didn't even read the whole thing. Only Cameron Poe would read that because he is un employed with lot's of time.Ridir wrote:
Dilbert are you being serious? Who said they are going to attack? Uhh maybe when they were shooting at western troops (already mentioned above) maybe the history of violence against the West. But that's not enough fact for you is it?
We'll have a ton of evidence like in a US or UK court case right? I mean we can go through the hundreds or thousands of brass on the street and pick out that specific guy's, trace it back to him, do all of the forensics on hundreds of enemy combatants in a hostile territory. There is a difference between insurgents, terrorist, and civilian crooks and murders. And because it is nearly impossible to do forensics in a war zone we have to release them do to lack of evidence. And when we try to extract information more and more methods are labeled as torture: sleep deprivation, waterboarding, pretty soon solitary confinement will be labeled as torture at the current rate.
To M3thod, read it. I do expect you to read it because then you might be a little bit more educated in the facts. I left weak points in that post because I want to see if you can actually debate or if you are going to continue on your own little wavelength with statistical odds of being killed in an attack and saying that the West was not attacked. Yes your individual risk of dying in a terrorist attack is significantly low [thanks to intelligence and military services] but attacking the World Trade Towers had significant economic impacts on the economy [recovery, cleaning, rebuilding, loss of records, loss of capital, loss of workforce, surrounding area shut down] same as Madrid's subway attack [reduction in transportation, recovery thru rebuilding, fear of using public transit] as well as the fear it instills in the common citizen for a period of time which generally translates into a shell shock reduction in spending.
To whoever else it was. The West, the US, UK, EU ARE MAINTAINING A PRESENCE IN THE MIDDLE EAST. Ok, now that we have re-established this point yet again let's move on to why again. Petroleum makes the world go round, without it you will see economies and way of life grind to a halt. You take advantage of it and yet criticize it at the same time. You have your laptop, appliances, vehicles, clothes, and other items that make your life easier. You have food at relatively cheap prices because the material needed to farm it is cheaper, transporting it is cheaper. I know you don't like the idea that you might be the cause of our continuing presence around the world but your quality of life depends on it. AND AGAIN the extremist Islamic fundamentalist have repeatedly attacked Western Countries in the West. In very recent memory 9/11, London, Madrid [AGAIN].
Yes it is deplorable that people take advantage of one another in the world. I would be happy if the world had come about evenly and everyone had made a fair trade. Unfortunately resources have for centuries have been taken at the tip of a sword, today it is not nearly that violent, although at times it can escalate. There is international trade that keeps the markets roughly even. Unfortunately again people go through and are driven by other motives such as religion, greed, power, money and move to either horde their resources or take others without giving anything back. Currently the dominate Middle Eastern culture does not like the West therefore would more than likely either significantly increase the price of resources to artificial levels robbing the West of money or cut off the supply all together. The current culture in the Middle East does not mesh with Western culture, it does not assimilate [virtually] anything but military and medical advancement without restrictions for their own people to keep them under control/protect them, etc etc.
Is this still too much to read?
Malloy must go
SERE is a military school. Survive Evade Resist Escape. It covers everything it says in its title when trapped or caught behind enemy lines
nutz, I understand its a lot to read. I'm just in the whole writing professional papers stage still. Seeing as how I have to write one or two a week. Maybe I'll edit these and post a new topic with shorter points, maybe just bullet points.
Pilots, snipers, SF, etc usually go. It is also a school that simulates marriage .Ridir wrote:
SERE is a military school. Survive Evade Resist Escape. It covers everything it says in its title when trapped or caught behind enemy lines
Last edited by deeznutz1245 (2009-02-10 11:49:51)
Malloy must go
You may call me Deez.Ridir wrote:
nutz, I understand its a lot to read. I'm just in the whole writing professional papers stage still. Seeing as how I have to write one or two a week. Maybe I'll edit these and post a new topic with shorter points, maybe just bullet points.
Malloy must go
I can call him Nutz though.deeznutz1245 wrote:
You may call me Deez.Ridir wrote:
nutz, I understand its a lot to read. I'm just in the whole writing professional papers stage still. Seeing as how I have to write one or two a week. Maybe I'll edit these and post a new topic with shorter points, maybe just bullet points.
ooh rahS3v3N wrote:
I can call him Nutz though.deeznutz1245 wrote:
You may call me Deez.Ridir wrote:
nutz, I understand its a lot to read. I'm just in the whole writing professional papers stage still. Seeing as how I have to write one or two a week. Maybe I'll edit these and post a new topic with shorter points, maybe just bullet points.
Malloy must go
Would you like me to list all the foreign intervention our military has done in that same time? I will if you want, and the list is much longer than your list. They (Islamic cultures/East) could very well see our intervention as the same affront on their foreign culture. The same logic applies - The West is not an enemy of Islam but when our foreign policy becomes one of controlling our "interests" in the region (implicitly to further our economic interests and maintain our status as the sole power in light of the rise of the EU and Northeast Asia) we foment terrorism. I have read articles, reports and books by counter-terrorism experts and every one of them have said our actions (especially since the War on Terror began) internationally have induced more terrorism. It works both ways- it is ignorant to think that our (US/West) actions are solely altruistic and theirs are ignoble.Ridir wrote:
Yes you are more likely to be killed by cop than a terrorist if you are breaking the law, you are more likely to choke on your own vomit if you are a drunk, you are more likely to ... etc etc..
Well maybe if you take a few courses on Political Science, Sociology, Foreign Relations, and History you might be able to research and dive a little farther by a few facts presented. So here is a little bit of a break down for you and your cold hard FACTS.
I listed a well known linage of attacks dating back 20-30 years to show you the continuing trend of an assault on western culture by Islamic Extremist. Islam is not the enemy of the West but it taken into the hands of extreme interpretation has lead to the violent expulsion of foreign and non-Islamic thought, culture and law. These radicals have been waging a specific war against foreign cultures [anyone else here remember the Taliban destroying the giant statues of Buddha?] and domestic moderates since the 1950's after the British, French and other European nations 'left' the region.
I'm sure M3thod probably has a greater understanding of the Koran than you seeing as he is Muslim. Whether or not you could correctly say that the citizens of respective Islamic countries support their extremist governments (or for that matter the actions of the few extremists) is up for debate. I think it is important to note that the biggest international supporter of Saudi Arabia (one of the most extreme governments in the region) is the US government. Maybe our support of Saudi rule (and for that matter the governments in Egypt and Jordan) helps create the dichotomy between extremists and moderates in the region, because we support both sides (just like we did in the Iran-Iraq war, which was an important event that created real repercussions 20 years later).Ridir wrote:
If you read some of the interpretations of the Koran it allows for "Jihad against the Near and Far enemies." Depending on who you talk to the far enemy ranges from nearby countries to nations as far away as the United States, UK, Russia, Australia, etc. The near enemy is often the domestic governments of Islamic countries including Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, etc. Iran's current government is actually a result of a revolution into a more strict Islamic government from the 1970's. The current President of Iran was the most religiously conservative candidate among seven. Saudi Arabia does not readily allow westerners into the country and even then they must abide by very strict laws and rules based very closely on Islamic Sharia Law. Because of the precarious positioning of the governments, the people desire of a better life, and the teachings by a growing number of radical sheiks whatever actions are taken by the government generally validate the cause of the extremist organizations, this has been especially true in Saudi Arabia where the governing family has to use religious reasoning to validate their rule (which is according to them to protect Mecca and the holy shrines there in). Unfortunately for those in the west their use of the Koran and Islam to validate their rule also validates the ideas underlying the general principals of extremists [to protect Islam, the culture it produces, and it's holy relics, cities etc by whatever means necessary].
So by having Sharia [Islamic Law] validated and the general Middle East public supporting it you have populations supporting the actions of a few either a little or quite a bit. If you remember after most bombings and attacks against Western nations there have been videos of people dancing in the streets in the Middle East. So there is a general population support behind these attacks.
I hope you don't honestly think terrorism will lead to the downfall of Western Culture by creating disillusion among the people. Our own policy (including failed domestic and international) is what has our own population disaffected with our government - we don't need outside action to do that for us. However, it is important to note that the general consensus is that the best way to combat terrorism is through those professional agencies you mention, which is what the focus should be on, not ground attacks and conventional warfare. Unfortunately it is increasingly obvious (to me) that our action in the War on Terror is not intelligently addressing the issue of terrorism; in fact it's having he opposite effect. I think we (US/West) need to understand and accept the fact that we cannot control the world, we cannot claim to embrace freedom and democracy while at the same time supporting tyrannical and oppressive regimes, as historically has been the case.Ridir wrote:
Now these few, extreme hard line Islamic fundamentalist are highly motivated by religious fever. They are funded and supplied by many people in the region. They have been trained over decades by several different organizations ranging from the US military, CIA, Russian forces, and more than likely Iranian and other religion states. They are capable of attacking many different targets, causing severe damage and chaos. That isn't fear mongering it is the truth. But we do we have international organizations combating them to decrease their effectiveness, abilities, personnel, and range. We are very likely to be able to reduce the number of attacks to close to zero percent, it is what we have professional agencies for.
Unfortunately that small percentage of attacks that will make it through either foreign or domestic [India, United States, London, Madrid, Athens, Africa, Baghdad, Afghanistan] will damage Western faith in government, public faith in economy markets, fear to travel abroad. All of these can lead to a slow and steady collapse of Western Culture or if an attack is large enough a sharp, quick decline in Western Culture.
Interesting that you would suggest that Western interference in the Middle East is related to the price of oil, however I don't think it that much of an real influence. I think Western interference in the region is more of a perceived influence than a direct influence, especially when looking at the action of OPEC in correlation to Western interference in the region. I think it is more of a "look North Korea-China/Russia/EU, we have the strongest influence in the region with the largest fuel reserves" than "we want to make sure we get oil cheaply." The "war for oil" argument is more centered around the government's supposed intention to let government-friendly corporations gain insider access to oil contracts, not so we control the prices.Ridir wrote:
On another note a lot of the products you buy are produced with plastic and other petroleum based products. If the West were to complete withdraw from the Middle East as some would suggest the cost for your simple daily supplies will increase drastically. All oil prices will increase [OPEC will probably increase price per barrel to whatever level they want, as has already been suggested several times by member states, domestic and non-OPEC countries will have such a demand for their oil that their prices will increase as well] causing the price of virtually everything to increase. Travel will cost more, items will cost more, food will cost more, water, electricity, power, almost everything you take for granted will cost more sending citizens of nearly every western culture into shell shock. They will stop spending money to protect themselves [look at the United States when just the price of gasoline and diesel increased, the price per barrel hadn't even made it into product cost yet] grinding their economies to a halt. If highly valuable trading countries economies grind down than the world economy will follow.
Our presence in the Middle East is increasing the likelihood of attack. It simply moves the focus of near-term terrorist attacks to the Middle East and other spheres of influence, while also increasing the likelihood of long-term domestic attacks.Ridir wrote:
So the United States remaining the sole super power in the world seems like a very plausible argument but its position is already getting overtaken and everyone knows it. The United States has been keeping its presence in the Middle East while insuring that the Western Culture was protected from attack economically, militarily, politically, and through terrorism.
Releasing enemy combatants simply because they were waterboarded is as absurd as relying on confessions gained through waterboarding to convict these people of terrorism. The fact that many here assume these people are guilty based off confessions gained through torture or informants with monetary incentives is troubling, especially given the western ideal of "innocent until proven guilty". If there is great intelligence and sufficient evidence then these people should be given a trial and convicted. Having to resort to torture to draw out a confession that is unreliable at best is not conducive to the Western culture's ideals.Ridir wrote:
Now torture is not something that I would say is a good thing, but to release enemy combatants because they were waterboarded is absurd. Many of those captured were captured in combat action against Western troops, intelligence gathered by Western agencies, or sufficient evidence was provided that they were threats to the United States, military personnel or volunteers attempting to help the people. Your moral high ground is ineffective in combating a force that is intent on the destruction of your culture and civilization. It is good to be moral and have the high ground, it is absurd to release these people back to attack the West.
Whether or not the moral high ground is effective is arguable because we (US/Western Culture) haven't taken the moral high ground. Whether it is sawing off heads or raping women or killing innocent civilians or torturing people, it's all heinous and unconscionable.
Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2009-02-10 12:36:14)
If you're afraid terror striking then they have won. Don't know about you but nope not afraid.deeznutz1245 wrote:
I know you think you see eye to eye with M3thod but it's difficult on your knees. Of course it is rare to die from a terrorist attack. It's not the infliction of pain that necessarily motivates terrorists, it is the fact that they make people afraid. More people are afraid of terror striking their surroundings than any of the shit listed above so those statistics are null in void. I'm sure you are just as unlikely to win the fucking lottery but millions still play. Pure fucking fail.OisÃn | Irishpride wrote:
Pure win.m3thod wrote:
Lewl you're off your nut! If you haven't noticed it's you that devolved to generalisations. Spouting off a list of terrorism acts stretching over 20-30 years may work to scare the shit out of the average American but here are some cold hard FACTS for you to digest.
As many Americans have been killed by lightning, accident-causing deer and allergic reactions to peanuts as terrorism:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen … 616813.ece
The following ratios were compiled using data from 2004 National Safety Council (NSC) Estimates, a report based on data from The National Center for Health Statistics and the U.S. Census Bureau. In addition, 2003 mortality data from the Center for Disease Control (CDC) was used.
You are 13 times more likely to die in a railway accident than from a terrorist attack
You are 12,571 times more likely to die from cancer than from a terrorist attack
You are six times more likely to die from hot weather than from a terrorist attack (LOL)
....and so on and so on.
edit @ M3thod - Shake this little lost following puppy before he follows you home and shits on your carpet (or your hard wood floor, depending on your preference).
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
In my new role I'm training for the job of shift engineer in the National Control Centre too baby....m3th0d wrote:
This.Deez wrote:
Dude. Understand that I am totally on your side and I didn't even read the whole thing. Only Cameron Poe would read that because he is un employed with lot's of time.
Cam poe is a principal engineer at Ireland Electricty (whatever the fuck it's called).
Ker-ching! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
PS It's called EirGrid. It's the equivalent of National Grid.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-02-10 14:46:27)
LMAOdeeznutz1245 wrote:
It is also a school that simulates marriage .
Thought it simulated divorce.
you didnt get boarded?S3v3N wrote:
...wow you got water boarded at SERE?usmarine wrote:
so because he was water boarded he lied? awesome assumption there from you all. quite sad really. i know in our little water boarding exercise in SERE school, you lied. then, they verified that you lied, and water boarded you till you spilled the beans. keep dismissing it for all i care. i know how it works.Jenspm wrote:
I'm pretty sure I'd confess anything if I was "waterboarded".
We got the shit beat out of us.
shit..... maybe i got punked then
I got the shit beat out of me..usmarine wrote:
you didnt get boarded?S3v3N wrote:
...wow you got water boarded at SERE?usmarine wrote:
so because he was water boarded he lied? awesome assumption there from you all. quite sad really. i know in our little water boarding exercise in SERE school, you lied. then, they verified that you lied, and water boarded you till you spilled the beans. keep dismissing it for all i care. i know how it works.
We got the shit beat out of us.
shit..... maybe i got punked then
then again when they were asking who my CO was, i kept saying, "your Mom"
lol.....S3v3N wrote:
then again when they were asking who my CO was, i kept saying, "your Mom"
i kept singing rubber ducky in between the water being poured on my face
Just by coincidence.. I happend to say to one of the Staff Sgts that was handing down a beating, after he hit me in the stomach, I responded with, "If I wanted a Kiss i'd call your sister". Then I got beat some more and stuffed into a cage.usmarine wrote:
lol.....S3v3N wrote:
then again when they were asking who my CO was, i kept saying, "your Mom"
i kept singing rubber ducky in between the water being poured on my face
Turns out I met the dude's sister and she was hot..
damn hot. really hot, as in you'd drink a gallon of pee to see where it came from Hot.
lol....ya well hey, we were tortured right?
Official: Pentagon report says Gitmo is humane
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090221/ap_ … guantanamo
"The Pentagon says the Guantanamo Bay prison meets the standard for humane treatment laid out in the Geneva Conventions"
"The report found the camp to be in compliance with the Geneva Conventions Common Article 3, the international rules that require the humane treatment of prisoners taken in unconventional armed conflicts"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090221/ap_ … guantanamo
"The Pentagon says the Guantanamo Bay prison meets the standard for humane treatment laid out in the Geneva Conventions"
"The report found the camp to be in compliance with the Geneva Conventions Common Article 3, the international rules that require the humane treatment of prisoners taken in unconventional armed conflicts"
I don't really think the Pentagon was ever going to say it was inhumane.
but how is it not? take away those few cases of water boarding years ago, and they are treated pretty damn good for a combatant. meals specific to their religion ffs. not sure westerners get the same treatment.Poseidon wrote:
I don't really think the Pentagon was ever going to say it was inhumane.
I'm not saying it is or isn't...I'm just saying, do you really think the Pentagon was really going to say it was inhumane either way?usmarine wrote:
but how is it not? take away those few cases of water boarding years ago, and they are treated pretty damn good for a combatant. meals specific to their religion ffs. not sure westerners get the same treatment.Poseidon wrote:
I don't really think the Pentagon was ever going to say it was inhumane.
yes actually. look back thru history. the pentagon thought what the CIA was doing in afghanistan back in the 80's was wrong for the most part. they made it clear. we didnt have news outlets and the interweb back then, but it would have been all over the place tbh.Poseidon wrote:
I'm not saying it is or isn't...I'm just saying, do you really think the Pentagon was really going to say it was inhumane either way?
Yes, but when the US's world image is as tarnished as it is...I really doubt the Pentagon would say that we were treating POWs in an inhumane fashion.usmarine wrote:
yes actually. look back thru history. the pentagon thought what the CIA was doing in afghanistan back in the 80's was wrong for the most part. they made it clear. we didnt have news outlets and the interweb back then, but it would have been all over the place tbh.Poseidon wrote:
I'm not saying it is or isn't...I'm just saying, do you really think the Pentagon was really going to say it was inhumane either way?
I actually mostly agree with you on the issue.