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Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5175|...

Dilbert_X wrote:

I didn't say it was, you asked for an example of a group of innocent people detained and tortured which went on to commit massacres, Method and I have given you examples, you're going off on a tangent now.
M3thod's example contained a whole forty people who hadn't been detained, hadn't been tortured.

yours, 4.000 people, in which I have no idea how many were recruited BEFORE or AFTER the concentration camp horrors, and how many actually had been through that. Vague example at best.

Irgun itself was created before hitler even came in to power, let alone that anyone knew of the idea of concentration camps at that time.

Why does it always have to be about jews.

Last edited by dayarath (2009-01-14 15:59:53)

inane little opines
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|5847|UK

dayarath wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

I didn't say it was, you asked for an example of a group of innocent people detained and tortured which went on to commit massacres, Method and I have given you examples, you're going off on a tangent now.
M3thod's example contained a whole forty people who hadn't been detained, hadn't been tortured.

yours, 4.000 people, in which I have no idea how many were recruited BEFORE or AFTER the concentration camp horrors, and how many actually had been through that. Vague example at best.

Irgun itself was created before hitler even came in to power, let alone that anyone knew of the idea of concentration camps before that.

Why does it always have to be about jews.
you initially brought up the ww2 comparison...
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5175|...

m3thod wrote:

you initially brought up the ww2 comparison...
Ya and? jews aren't the only people who were detained and tortured during WW2.
inane little opines
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,765|5282|eXtreme to the maX
Ya and? jews aren't the only people who were detained and tortured during WW2.
No, but they were the only ones who went on to carry out massacres.
You're arguing with yourself now.
Birds Aren't Real
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|5825

I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore.
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|5847|UK

dayarath wrote:

m3thod wrote:

you initially brought up the ww2 comparison...
Ya and? jews aren't the only people who were detained and tortured during WW2.
sheesh...when anyone states innocent in a ww2 arena you automatically think jews.  You just do.

If you think i am typing jews/homos/gypos/darkies/ every single time you can go get bent.

Last edited by m3thod (2009-01-14 16:04:32)

Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|5938

ghettoperson wrote:

I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore.
thread destroyed by.... well you know the people.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|5777|132 and Bush

ghettoperson wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

As Ken is pointing out, if it's driven you close to insanity you might think differently.

And people in WWII were treated humanely for the most part. Unless you were a Jew...
Should be considered part of WWII.
Since we're being pedantic, WWII didn't start until a year later.
That's ridiculous. I'm sure that's exactly what you were thinking when you said people were treated humanly.

You should really investigate the other atrocities.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,765|5282|eXtreme to the maX
Forgot communists and cross-dressers.
Birds Aren't Real
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,931|5808|949

Successful red herring is successful
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,765|5282|eXtreme to the maX

Kmarion wrote:

You should really investigate the other atrocities.
Good point, the Russians were innocent (of doing anything to the Germans), inhumanely treated by the Germans and went on to commit massacres.
Birds Aren't Real
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5175|...

Dilbert_X wrote:

No, but they were the only ones who went on to carry out massacres.
there you have it, the only ones who carried out massacres ( I should've said revenge in the sense of bombing germans, innocent or not ), also being a small group - out of a huge number of people who survived torture.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

I can't believe we are even debating this.
You're right, I'll just stop here.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Good idea, you're just digging yourself a hole.
for some reason I didn't quite feel that way

I've got some advice; shut your hole, we'll stop and let the debate go on like it should have if it's still possible.

Last edited by dayarath (2009-01-14 16:13:49)

inane little opines
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,765|5282|eXtreme to the maX

Dayarath wrote:

I should've said revenge in the sense of bombing germans
Yes you should have, if thats what you meant.
You're right, I'll just stop here.
Good idea, you're just digging yourself a hole.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-01-14 16:09:31)

Birds Aren't Real
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|5825

Kmarion wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

Since we're being pedantic, WWII didn't start until a year later.
That's ridiculous. I'm sure that's exactly what you were thinking when you said people were treated humanly.

You should really investigate the other atrocities.
Why is it ridiculous? According to Wiki the Rape of Nanking was from 1937-38, WWII is pretty widely accepted to have started in 1939 when Germany invaded Poland. In any case, we're pointlessly debating a tangent here. I'm just arguing because that's where my opponent is taking the argument, I don't necessarily agree.
mikkel
Member
+383|5777
It can't really come as a shock to anyone that there are in fact guilty people at Guantanamo who would do what they did over again, and likely with more conviction. 11% "repeat terrorists" is better than what American convicts can muster, and they get such things as fair and speedy trials. I don't get how Americans can defend something as unamerican as Guantanamo. It goes against the values at the innermost core of the freedoms that are always cited as being defended when it comes to these things.

Neverending wars against immaterial concepts to justify betraying the rights and freedoms that are supposed to make America a better place than the dictatorships, would-be caliphates and corrupt religious monarchies that pollute this world. How can any American support compromising the ideals that they take pride in? What sense is there in letting the fight to protect your way of life corrupt the concepts and ideals that this way is founded on?

Yes, it's a difficult situation, but compromising ones own values and integrity as a nation should not be an option in trying to handle it.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|5777|132 and Bush

@ ghetto, it's ridiculous because the massacre was clearly part of the same Japanese imperialistic attitude. Nit picking the exact day instead of looking at the broader context is ridiculous.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

You should really investigate the other atrocities.
Good point, the Russians were innocent (of doing anything to the Germans), inhumanely treated by the Germans and went on to commit massacres.
It was a good point.. one you clearly misunderstood. I did not make any reference to the innocent Russians. Your point is non relevant.

ghetto's assertion that people were for the most part treated humanely is inaccurate. That includes all parties involved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmedy_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenogne_massacre
http://www.oradour.info/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woeste_Hoeve
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Kalavryta
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ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|5825

Kmarion wrote:

@ ghetto, it's ridiculous because the massacre was clearly part of the same Japanese imperialistic attitude. Nit picking the exact day instead of looking at the broader context is ridiculous.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

You should really investigate the other atrocities.
Good point, the Russians were innocent (of doing anything to the Germans), inhumanely treated by the Germans and went on to commit massacres.
It was a good point.. one you clearly misunderstood.

ghetto's assertion that people were for the most part treated humanely is inaccurate. That includes all parties involved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmedy_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenogne_massacre
http://www.oradour.info/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woeste_Hoeve
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Kalavryta
They were all shot on the spot though. That's not really anything to do with what we're talking about. I'm fully aware stuff like that happened, I meant more in terms of POW's being put in similar conditions to that at Gitmo (ie sleep deprivation and water boarding). I'm not claiming be any kind of expert on everything that happened in WWII (the only one of the above I knew anything about was Malmedy) so I'm fully expecting a long list of other situations, but from all the books I have read on the subject, I have always heard that British and American POW's were treated pretty well on the whole by the Germans. I'm assuming the same went the other way.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|5777|132 and Bush

That's just the surface ghetto. The previously mentioned siege on Leningrad was an attempt to starve out the city. The Nazis actually dropped pamphlets telling them that they were going to starve them. Hundreds of thousands died slowly. It resulted in cannibalism.

+ Shooting unarmed POW's is not humane treatment imho.
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13rin
Member
+977|5655
Hence a perfect illustration as to why taking prisoners in that particular theater doesn't work.

^toward OP gitmo.

Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2009-01-14 16:39:35)

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|5825

Kmarion wrote:

That's just the surface ghetto. The previously mentioned siege on Leningrad was an attempt to starve out the city. The Nazis actually dropped pamphlets telling them that they were going to starve them. Hundreds of thousands died slowly. It resulted in cannibalism.

+ Shooting unarmed POW's is not humane treatment imho.
As I said earlier, I don't know all the facts about everything that happened in WWII, and frankly it's a pointless tangent that barely has any relevance to the OP.
Whilst shooting them in inhuman, they aren't alive to get pissed off and come after their oppressors.

And thank you Mr.Brinson, that's pretty much how I feel about it as well.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|5777|132 and Bush

ghettoperson wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

That's just the surface ghetto. The previously mentioned siege on Leningrad was an attempt to starve out the city. The Nazis actually dropped pamphlets telling them that they were going to starve them. Hundreds of thousands died slowly. It resulted in cannibalism.

+ Shooting unarmed POW's is not humane treatment imho.
As I said earlier, I don't know all the facts about everything that happened in WWII, and frankly it's a pointless tangent that barely has any relevance to the OP.
Whilst shooting them in inhuman, they aren't alive to get pissed off and come after their oppressors.
No, but tales of their (unarmed) martyrdom would certainly ignite a firestorm of reprisal and recruitment. .. and that is relevant to the topic.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|5939|d
Bush administration: 'We tortured Qahtani'
US lawyers battling against torture and other abuses at Guantánamo Bay are braced for George Bush issuing last-minute pardons to protect those in his administration most closely implicated.

The lawyers' warning came after a senior member of the Bush administration, Susan Crawford, admitted for the first time that torture had been carried out. Until now, the Bush administration, in particular the vice-president, Dick Cheney, had denied the interrogation techniques at Guantánamo constituted torture.


Bush can issue a pardon to anyone he chooses between now and leaving office at midday on Tuesday. But lawyers warned yesterday that although such a pardon would prevent the politicians and officials from being prosecuted in the US, they would face the risk of being arrested in other countries, as was President Augusto Pinochet.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja … re-qahtani


Looks like the wanker bush has all his bases covered.

Last edited by mafia996630 (2009-01-14 16:58:13)

PureFodder
Member
+225|5461
Presumably if they were released then they couldn't have been convicted of committing terrorism.

Innocent until proven guilty.

The title should read 'Ex-Gitmo prisoners become terrorists'.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|5399|Escea

ghettoperson wrote:

m3thod wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:


Not the best option, because then trying to prove you weren't guilty goes down the shitter. You're released why risk that freedom? That's like someone convicted of a murder going down when they didn't do it, getting out and then murdering someone.
It's still possible that a % of them would be slightly pissed off at the shit they had to endure to warrant revenge.  They people didn't have rights so its wrong to compare them to a murderer who is fortunate to have rights.

Are you telling me if you were tortured you wouldn't think of maybe extracting just a little revenge?
Don't be stupid M3th, he'd get his book deal and write about what happened to him, but inform his capturers that there are no hard feelings.
Oh yes, trying to blow or shoot up a group of people is so much better, especially when you get thrown back in the slammer almost straight away. Bizarre they way people turn around in these threads sometimes. Innoncent people are allowed to die because one man was wronged and should be allowed to take fiery revenge on others, awesome strategy.
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|5847|UK

M.O.A.B wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

m3thod wrote:


It's still possible that a % of them would be slightly pissed off at the shit they had to endure to warrant revenge.  They people didn't have rights so its wrong to compare them to a murderer who is fortunate to have rights.

Are you telling me if you were tortured you wouldn't think of maybe extracting just a little revenge?
Don't be stupid M3th, he'd get his book deal and write about what happened to him, but inform his capturers that there are no hard feelings.
Oh yes, trying to blow or shoot up a group of people is so much better, especially when you get thrown back in the slammer almost straight away. Bizarre they way people turn around in these threads sometimes. Innoncent people are allowed to die because one man was wronged and should be allowed to take fiery revenge on others, awesome strategy.
Hold on there slick.  I could have sworn we were debating if it was possible a gitmo prisoner would potentially turn to terrorism as a consequence of torture.  How you derive some of think this is okay for this potential eventuality is well baffling.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.

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