BF2S Forums A lesson quickly forgotten

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

I'm not surprised at all.  In past threads about gas prices I noted that Americans have short memories, and would likely return to their old ways, in short order.

Americans? lol

When it comes to fuel efficiency, we're a lot more shortsighted than most of the industrialized world.

We're not more shortsighted, we do what everyone else would if they had the money to do so.

CameronPoe wrote:

http://www.theme-investing.com/wp-conte … uction.png

Could this be due to limitation on drilling in oil rich areas?

haffeysucks wrote:

honestly, priuses just don't have the 4WD capability and ground clearance to survive winters here.  i wouldn't buy a SUV though.  well, maybe a Rav-4 or something small.  the best thing would be to buy a Subaru.

What is snow?
Better find somewhere else to live I guess.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

We're not more shortsighted, we do what everyone else would if they had the money to do so.

Norway is wealthier than us, and they don't do it.

It's not about wealth, it's about mindset.  There are aspects of our culture that are mindlessly consumerist.

There is a mindset in our country about cars. We are more spread out as a nation, we have lots of the great outdoors that give many people the legitimate need for large cars, and we have money to spend on cars. If Norway had more of the first two they would buy them just as much as us - it's hardly an environmental issue.

They do have plenty of the great outdoors...



It is true that our size has a lot to do with our consumption habits, but...  The vast majority of people in the U.S. don't need an SUV.  We've just grown accustomed to them.

oug wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

http://www.theme-investing.com/wp-conte … uction.png

Could this be due to limitation on drilling in oil rich areas?

So let me get this straight. You wouldn't mind if they went on and fucked Alaska so you can drive your truck?

Well, here's the funny part.  Most Alaskans prefer more drilling in places like ANWR.  It's because they get a check every year from oil revenues (and because Alaska is mostly full of rednecks).

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

There is a mindset in our country about cars. We are more spread out as a nation, we have lots of the great outdoors that give many people the legitimate need for large cars, and we have money to spend on cars. If Norway had more of the first two they would buy them just as much as us - it's hardly an environmental issue.

They do have plenty of the great outdoors...

http://www.photoatlas.com/photo/norway-lofoten-01.jpg

It is true that our size has a lot to do with our consumption habits, but...  The vast majority of people in the U.S. don't need an SUV.  We've just grown accustomed to them.

Unless you have a snorkel for your Hummer that doesn't count.

Some people need them and that makes them a status symbol for other people. If no one needs them it's not a status symbol.

I don't think the fact that some people need them makes them a status symbol, but I would agree that they have become a status symbol.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

We're not more shortsighted, we do what everyone else would if they had the money to do so.

Wrong, not everyone in the world has the 'consume as much as possible because I can' mentality.
I guess thats why the US has obesity and fuel consumption problems.

I don't feel the need to stuff my face until I can't move (yes I have been to America and eaten with Americans).
Nor do I feel the need to drive a 6.0l V8 which consumes 3x more fuel than it needs to and handles like a tractor just so I can hear a bluh-bluh-bluh noise as I drive along or impress random strangers with my ability to out-drag them at the lights.

These things are mysteries to us Europeans, (Australians not so much).

Again, shove a shitload of money into a European's hands and see what they do.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

We're not more shortsighted, we do what everyone else would if they had the money to do so.

Wrong, not everyone in the world has the 'consume as much as possible because I can' mentality.
I guess thats why the US has obesity and fuel consumption problems.

I don't feel the need to stuff my face until I can't move (yes I have been to America and eaten with Americans).
Nor do I feel the need to drive a 6.0l V8 which consumes 3x more fuel than it needs to and handles like a tractor just so I can hear a bluh-bluh-bluh noise as I drive along or impress random strangers with my ability to out-drag them at the lights.

These things are mysteries to us Europeans, (Australians not so much).

Again, shove a shitload of money into a European's hands and see what they do.

The wealthiest European countries generally spend a shitload on taxes as well.  So, it is possible that if their taxes were lower, they would be more consumerist.  Still, the fact that they are ok with spending more on infrastructure than on "stuff" generally seems to imply that they aren't consumerist by nature.

If they were consumerist, they would have already voted in governments that would lower taxes enough for them to spend more on "stuff."

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

haffeysucks wrote:

honestly, priuses just don't have the 4WD capability and ground clearance to survive winters here.  i wouldn't buy a SUV though.  well, maybe a Rav-4 or something small.  the best thing would be to buy a Subaru.

You just need a better snow removal system.  We get plenty of snow, and I get around just fine in my Eclipse.  Then again, Utah has one of the best snow removal units in the nation.

Yeah, Connecticut has just a tad bit more population though. We have much less space and manueverability for plow trucks so although the snow gets removed, it takes a little longer.

ghettoperson wrote:

I don't know if you've ever seen a ranking of GDP per capita, but a lot of European countries are up at the top.

GDP != personal wealth/standard of living

Turquoise wrote:

The wealthiest European countries generally spend a shitload on taxes as well.  So, it is possible that if their taxes were lower, they would be more consumerist.  Still, the fact that they are ok with spending more on infrastructure than on "stuff" generally seems to imply that they aren't consumerist by nature.

If they were consumerist, they would have already voted in governments that would lower taxes enough for them to spend more on "stuff."

Maybe if they got a taste of a system with less distribution of wealth (if it wasn't tainted by its implication with the U.S.) they would begin to feel differently.

If you don't let someone out of the cave they don't know any better. Once they're outside...good luck getting them back in.

jord wrote:

Probably not buy an SUV, what's your point?

I admit my country has a problem with Knife crime, it's obvious.

The least you can do is admit that the largest part of the American people are consumerists that grab it while they can and don't look back. Before the all important decider is brought up, yes I have indeed been to America.

Knife crime? What the fuck?

It's irrelevant what they would buy, it's just consumerist tendancies. They would buy whatever they want, regardless of the morality of the purchase.

The least you can do is admit that all humans are greedy, selfish bastards. In America those tendencies are not stifled, for better or worse. Personally I'd rather exploit my clear fallacies instead of dressing them up and calling them strong points.

Jord wrote:

Really, your outdoors has nothing to do with it. Your country being large doesn't either, since you have roads.

lolololol

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

The wealthiest European countries generally spend a shitload on taxes as well.  So, it is possible that if their taxes were lower, they would be more consumerist.  Still, the fact that they are ok with spending more on infrastructure than on "stuff" generally seems to imply that they aren't consumerist by nature.

If they were consumerist, they would have already voted in governments that would lower taxes enough for them to spend more on "stuff."

Maybe if they got a taste of a system with less distribution of wealth (if it wasn't tainted by its implication with the U.S.) they would begin to feel differently.

If you don't let someone out of the cave they don't know any better. Once they're outside...good luck getting them back in.

That's a pretty arrogant way of looking at it.

Ultimately, it's a balance.  In America, we're very individualistic and consumerist.  The benefits to this are that we have more freedoms than most people, and our freedoms are more explicitly protected by the Constitution than rights of other citizens are protected by their doctrines of government.  That's really the best thing about America.

A close second in terms of our advantages is that we have relatively low taxes for a First World country, so we can spend most of our income however we see fit.

In most of Europe, things are more collectivist.  The interests of society as a whole are given more of an emphasis, which results in better infrastructures regarding things like education (most of the time) and better access to basic healthcare (again, most of the time).  It's a different mindset, but it's not inferior or superior.  It's just different.

We can point to our own ability to spend things how we want to and boast, while they can point to their usually much lower crime rates and boast.

Either way though, it's ultimately just a dick measuring contest.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Again, shove a shitload of money into a European's hands and see what they do.

Generally speaking:
- Invest it, second house, apartment, shares, art - but quality, something which will retain its value or appreciate
- Not buy some grotesque depreciating asset with an unending line of bills following it, huge car, boat etc.
- Not spend it on a cardboard mansion which will be worthless in 20 years and require colossal heating cooling for its short life.

Europe is changing however, its becoming much more short term and consumerist.

I was speaking metaphorically. I wouldn't go on a spending spree either, and I'm American. Does that mean Americans aren't consumerist?

Dilbert_X wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

If you don't let someone out of the cave they don't know any better. Once they're outside...good luck getting them back in.

Have you even been to Europe? The standard of living is a good deal higher than the US, we just have smaller houses and cars.

You are used to the government taking a large part of your salary. The people are used to it, and all people resist change. That doesn't mean if offered the choice between low or high taxes and the government benefits implied by those choices, and they actually (impossibly) understand what that choice would mean in the long term, that they would still prefer a high taxes situation.