BF2S Forums Bush Ducks Shoes Thrown in Iraqi Leader’s Office

you're right... now that Saddam is gone... he will probably get fairly treated... freedom of expression... awesome

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

you're right... now that Saddam is gone... he will probably get fairly treated... freedom of expression... awesome

Let's bloody well hope so, otherwise the whole invasion would be an unadulterated, epic failure... even more so than we already know it to be!

Catbox wrote:

you're right... now that Saddam is gone... he will probably get fairly treated... freedom of expression... awesome

I think under Saddam he would have got a medal, new house, a car and some fresh wives for throwing two shoes at the US President.

CameronPoe wrote:

Or being made the poster boy for anti-American Iraq. I can practically visualise the banners now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7783608.stm

Didn't take long.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-12-15 06:21:35)

jord wrote:

Would been awesome if Bush took his off and threw them back.


/dreams

Those Gucci's can do some serious damage



I think the reporter got the worst deal, he lost his shoes.

ATG wrote:

If that had been the former president of Iraq, the reporter would have drawn and quartered, his family killed and perhaps his whole village gassed.

I kind of feel sorry for Bush; ' helping ' the people of Iraq was pretty much his only claim to fame and legacy. Now they throw shoes.

His presidency has been a resounding failure and will be viewed as such by the history books. It may not be the case that everything was entirely his fault but it cannot be denied that his time in office saw America go from having almost universal sympathy in the wake of 9/11 to a position of almost tangible unpopularity in the global community; in January he will hand over an economy that is probably in the worst shape since the great depression and as for Iraq, well, that guy's size 10 shoes sum up what many Iraqis think about the 'help' he has given that country. The empty satisfaction enjoyed by an online debater in being able to say "I told you so" doesn't even nearly measure up to the pain, suffering and trauma suffered by so many as a result of Bush's little Middle Eastern free market experiment.

Bush is a cunt.

Braddock wrote:

that guy's size 10 shoes sum up what many Iraqis think about the 'help' he has given that country.

Many Iraqis enjoy their new modernised life, allowing to do things they couldn't before. The reason the whole 'anti-west' thing seems so prominent is because that's what the media concentrates on, bad news makes better stories. I've seen the BBC air programs that show the high amount of improvement in neighbourhoods and the ordinary Iraqi mingling and having conversations with troops, even playing pool with them. Strangely that program was shown at like 2am.

One guy's shoes don't reflect the entire population's opinion.

M.O.A.B wrote:

Braddock wrote:

that guy's size 10 shoes sum up what many Iraqis think about the 'help' he has given that country.

Many Iraqis enjoy their new modernised life, allowing to do things they couldn't before. The reason the whole 'anti-west' thing seems so prominent is because that's what the media concentrates on, bad news makes better stories. I've seen the BBC air programs that show the high amount of improvement in neighbourhoods and the ordinary Iraqi mingling and having conversations with troops, even playing pool with them. Strangely that program was shown at like 2am.

One guy's shoes don't reflect the entire population's opinion.

Well at the very least 41.2% of Iraq are of the anti-American variety, according to the parliamentary elections. The United Iraqi Alliance, made up of such luminaries as Moqtada Al Sadr, US turncoat Ahmed Chalabi, Hezbollah movement in Iraq, Islamic Virtue Party, Islamic Action Organisation, Islamic Dawa party, Islamic Master of the Martyrs Movement and the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq garnered this proportion of votes alone. And almost every single poll shows a majority anti-coalition sentiment and a strong desire to see the coaltion out of their country. The Iraqi Accord Front won 15.1% and their bottom line is 'US out' - they're essentially what's left of the Ba'athists. So that makes at least 56.3% anti-coalition by voting.

PS Under Saddam, as shit as that was, the Iraqis lived in a 'modernised life', with an educated middle class (now practically disappeared) practicing the sciences, medicine, law, etc. in a nation with electricity, water, roads and railways. Not so anymore. Somebody thought they would butt into their business and bring death and carnage to them on the off-chance that Iraq had WMD. Newsflash: when a vastly stronger party throws the first punch against the playground weakling then the bully is the one at fault. The coalition will be resented in the long run. It was not the west's decision to make in ousting Saddam - I thought the west was all about personal responsibility and self determination? Sticking around to clean up the mess won't garner the west much in the way of thanks.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-12-15 08:39:37)

Braddock wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Braddock wrote:

that guy's size 10 shoes sum up what many Iraqis think about the 'help' he has given that country.

Many Iraqis enjoy their new modernised life, allowing to do things they couldn't before. The reason the whole 'anti-west' thing seems so prominent is because that's what the media concentrates on, bad news makes better stories. I've seen the BBC air programs that show the high amount of improvement in neighbourhoods and the ordinary Iraqi mingling and having conversations with troops, even playing pool with them. Strangely that program was shown at like 2am.

One guy's shoes don't reflect the entire population's opinion.

True, I'm sure there are many Iraqis who are quite happy with their new style of society... depending on what brand of Muslim they are in their now highly sectarian country. I don't deny that there are positives as a result of the removal of Saddam Hussein but every time I see a shot of Iraq on the news (on any station) is sure does look like a shithole. And there still seems to be an awful lot of people getting killed every day there.

EDIT: Also, you said "modernised"... don't they still have intermittent power services in many regions there? I saw a Channel 4 documentary there the other night and they were in a cafe where soldiers were playing dominoes with locals and the power kept cutting out... hardly very 'modern'.

Power and clean water weren't exactly widespread during Saddam's reign. The Iraqis have to do as much about solving their power issues as anyone else, they have to maintain and regulate their systems because if they can't do it now, they never will.

CameronPoe wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Braddock wrote:

that guy's size 10 shoes sum up what many Iraqis think about the 'help' he has given that country.

Many Iraqis enjoy their new modernised life, allowing to do things they couldn't before. The reason the whole 'anti-west' thing seems so prominent is because that's what the media concentrates on, bad news makes better stories. I've seen the BBC air programs that show the high amount of improvement in neighbourhoods and the ordinary Iraqi mingling and having conversations with troops, even playing pool with them. Strangely that program was shown at like 2am.

One guy's shoes don't reflect the entire population's opinion.

Well at the very least 41.2% of Iraq are of the anti-American variety, according to the parliamentary elections. The United Iraqi Alliance, made up of such luminaries as Moqtada Al Sadr, US turncoat Ahmed Chalabi, Hezbollah movement in Iraq, Islamic Virtue Party, Islamic Action Organisation, Islamic Dawa party, Islamic Master of the Martyrs Movement and the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq garnered this proportion of votes alone. And almost every single poll shows a majority anti-coalition sentiment and a strong desire to see the coaltion out of their country. The Iraqi Accord Front won 15.1% and their bottom line is 'US out' - they're essentially what's left of the Ba'athists. So that makes at least 56.3% anti-coalition by voting.

PS Under Saddam, as shit as that was, the Iraqis lived in a 'modernised life', with an educated middle class (now practically disappeared) practicing the sciences, medicine, law, etc. in a nation with electricity, water, roads and railways. Not so anymore. Somebody thought they would butt into their business and bring death and carnage to them on the off-chance that Iraq had WMD. Newsflash: when a vastly stronger party throws the first punch against the playground weakling then the bully is the one at fault. The coalition will be resented in the long run. It was not the west's decision to make in ousting Saddam - I thought the west was all about personal responsibility and self determination? Sticking around to clean up the mess won't garner the west much in the way of thanks.

Hmm yes, all the groups led by people like Muqtada or Hezbollah really want the best for Iraq don't they?

I don't see education to have disappeared either. Last couple of reports I've seen have showed an increase in children visiting schools as well as women being allowed to move freely around and live a normal life. I don't see all the roads and railways to have disappeared either.

Problem is you're too quick to call 'fail' on anything that features any bad elements and that it is destined to fail. If you think Iraq will be worse off than it was under huggy-Saddam then you've missed something.

dayarath wrote:

I fucking hate isolationism. Always point the finger but don't do shit about it. What you think Saddam would've disappeared quietly? It's the same with N Korea.

Sooner or later he had to go, and imo it's best that he's gone now instead of dying of old age in 30 somewhat years and his personal favorite taking over. The Iraqi's will be better off in the long run whether they like the presence of the americans right now or not.

the problem with the invasion is that the cooperation with the other middle eastern countries is so pathetic and terrible that you could say the americans have to try and do everything on their own (partially the americans are at fault and for underestimating the situation in Iraq, though it's easy to say what went wrong after shit happened). Not to mention the surrounding countries and many people in these countries make good use of the situation to spout anti western propaganda everywhere.

But ah well what do you care about people in other countries, you never seen / met them anyway.

Can you PM me the make and model of your crystal ball dayarath, it sounds like a pretty good one. How the hell anyone can assert that the Iraqis will be better off now after the invasion as some sort of absolute certainty is quite beyond me. How can you be so sure? Are you basing this opinion on the amount of deaths seen in the streets of Iraq on a daily and weekly basis? Or is democracy going to eventually just 'kick in' all of a sudden while all of the ethnic tension we're currently witnessing just gets swept under the carpet as everyone dances in the street and sings along to "Celebration" by Kool and The Gang?

What's to stop another crackpot rising to power in the post-Saddam era? Al-Sadr already seems quite popular and he seems like a nice, balanced individual. Are you going to stay around and babysit to make sure they elect only Western-friendly leaders? The problem with the invasion has little to do with neighbouring countries... it has to do with the fact that democracy cannot be injected into a country externally, it has to grow organically from within.

RAIMIUS wrote:

Cam, your bias is getting the better of you, here.  There was good under Saddam, but there was also the religious/ethnic minority oppressing the others, attempted genocide, state-funded international terrorism, the invasion of neighboring nations, the use of food as a political weapon, defiance of UN resolution after resolution, a few tons of yellowcake uranium here and there (hmm...what could that be for?), and the governmental murder of a couple million civilians due to political opposition. 

Yes, Iraq is screwed up.  Yes, Bush is hated by many.  Yes, many Iraqis feel as that reporter does......and no, we cannot make an accurate judgement as to whether this whole thing has turned out better or worse than leaving Saddam in power.

RAIMIUS - Saddam stifled all religious/ethnic tension with a brutal and malignant fist, putting in place a Sunni-biased secular society where women and non-Muslims were freer to do as they please then than they are today. He invaded Iran and the west supported him. People in the rest of the world, France, Russia, USA, UK, you name it, made millions during sanctions - sanctions which effectively only punished oridinary Iraqis - through the Oil For Food program debacle. Yes he gassed Kurds and he was a heinous cunt for doing so - nobody criticised him much at the time because he was 'on our side'. Was the Nigerian yellowcake story not proven to be false? We only did anything about him when he pounced on an small oil-rich nation to his south. It was nothing to do with 'the goodness of our hearts' or 'global peace'. Why didn't we step in to support Iran if we were concerned with border transgressions? What was happening in Iraq was the business of Iraq and their neighbours. If you are having a heated perhaps violent argument with your wife I'm not going to walk across the highway, butt in and perhaps punch you in the face, the likelihood is she'd started hitting me (as happened in post-invasion Iraq).

I can't abide this whole 'it'll work out in the long run so it's ok/worth it' attitude, as if that somehow negates the immorality and resented patronising uncalled-for bloodshed that we wrought upon them. If Iraq turns out alright it'll be down to one group of people and one group of people alone - Iraqis.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-12-15 09:08:19)

Braddock wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Braddock wrote:

True, I'm sure there are many Iraqis who are quite happy with their new style of society... depending on what brand of Muslim they are in their now highly sectarian country. I don't deny that there are positives as a result of the removal of Saddam Hussein but every time I see a shot of Iraq on the news (on any station) is sure does look like a shithole. And there still seems to be an awful lot of people getting killed every day there.

EDIT: Also, you said "modernised"... don't they still have intermittent power services in many regions there? I saw a Channel 4 documentary there the other night and they were in a cafe where soldiers were playing dominoes with locals and the power kept cutting out... hardly very 'modern'.

Power and clean water weren't exactly widespread during Saddam's reign. The Iraqis have to do as much about solving their power issues as anyone else, they have to maintain and regulate their systems because if they can't do it now, they never will.

Links please.

Links to them having awsm power and water facilities?

I know they don't have good systems right now, they're still being implemented but they weren't exactly splendid when Saddam was around either.

CameronPoe wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Ultrafunkula wrote:

Miss after miss after miss... Learn to throw ffs!

We've seen enough of these with Bush.

http://i37.tinypic.com/sndul1.jpg

Nice flippant jpg there Kmar. I don't suppose you had to deal with having your nation invaded, thousands of your compatriots killed and your nation thrown into anarchy. I guess you wouldn't be throwing shoes in anger at the man responsible - oh that's right I forgot: you invaded two countries when that happened.... You threw more than a few shoes after Pearl Harbour if I recall correctly too. I find it odd that you would belittle someone who livid at someone from thousand of miles away who is responsible for visiting untold death and destruction on his nation.

You can't possibly be serious. I was responding to Ultrafunkula's "learn to throw ffs" remark. As far as I know the man did fail. He had eight years to practice. Someone should taught him how to lead with his throws.