Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6410|eXtreme to the maX
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7760684.stm
Menezes verdict choice restricted
The jury at the inquest into the death of Jean Charles de Menezes will not be able to consider a verdict of unlawful killing, the coroner has said.

Sir Michael Wright said that having heard all the evidence, a verdict of unlawful killing was "not justified".

Mr de Menezes, 27, was shot dead by police at Stockwell Tube station in south London after he was mistaken for one of the failed 21 July 2005 bombers.

The jury may now return either an open or lawful killing verdict.
Sir Michael's ruling came as he began his summing up of the case on Tuesday.

"In directing you that you cannot return a verdict of unlawful killing, I am not saying that nothing went wrong in a police operation which resulted in the killing of an innocent man," he told the hearing.
But in narrowing down the choice of verdict, he added: "All interested persons agree that a verdict of unlawful killing could only be left to you if you could be sure that a specific officer had committed a very serious crime - murder or manslaughter."
Sir Michael also warned jurors that they must not attach any criminal or civil fault to any individuals.

The 11-strong jury has heard from 100 witnesses since the inquest began at the Oval Cricket Ground in September. Among them were the two firearms officers who shot Mr de Menezes, known only as C2 and C12.
The coroner told the jury that the verdict they chose depended on whether they felt that those two officers honestly believed the Brazilian represented an imminent, mortal threat and whether lethal force was justified in those circumstances.

Reminding them that the Brazilian's mother, Maria Otone de Menezes, had heard much of the evidence, Sir Michael said: "I know that your heart will go out to her.
"But these are emotional reactions, ladies and gentlemen, and you are charged with returning a verdict based on evidence.
"Put aside any emotion - put them to one side."

In 2007, the Metropolitan Police was fined £175,000 over the shooting of Mr de Menezes, after it was convicted under the Health and Safety Act of "endangering the public".

But the trial concluded that police chief Cressida Dick, who led the operation, bore "no personal culpability", and Sir Michael told the inquest jury that their verdict could not be inconsistent with that decision.

The jury was also given a series of questions to consider based on what they have heard.
These included whether C12 shouted a warning - "Armed police" - before opening fire, and whether Mr de Menezes stood up and moved towards officers as they approached.

Jurors were also asked to consider which of a number of factors contributed to the Brazilian's death.

Among those were:

The pressure on police after the 7 July London bombings
A failure by police to ensure that Mr de Menezes was stopped before he reached the Underground
The innocent behaviour of Mr de Menezes increasing suspicion
Shortcomings in the communications system between various police teams involved in the operation
That stinks IMO.
Its pretty obvious unlawful killing could be a fair verdict here, the jury is basically being restricted to innocent or not proven, guilty is off the table.
They should be free to hand down whatever verdict they see fit.
But this is a regular event now, Judges and Coroners protecting the Police from liability or criticism by legal maneuvring.

If someone does nothing whatever to draw suspicion on themselves, is shot dead by plainclothes officers without being given a chance to surrender or even know that they were Police (according to the Police they warned him, according to everyone else on the train they just ran in and shot him) I don't see how what is in the mind of the officer has any relevance.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-12-03 01:06:30)

Fuck Israel
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6969|NT, like Mick Dundee

Roll on Norsefire!
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6594|Éire
Nobody does whitewashes like the British justice system!

...sounds like a slogan for a cleaning product!
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7040|Salt Lake City

Wow, it seems the coroner has a much different role in the UK than it does in the US.  Here the coroners job is to determine cause/time of death.  It's up to the D.A. (District Attorney) to determine why type of charges should be filed.
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|7046|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann

Braddock wrote:

Nobody does whitewashes like the British justice system!

...sounds like a slogan for a cleaning product!
funny you should say that.. i was just reading this today

The head of the Bloody Sunday Inquiry has told a Westminster committee he will not meet it to explain why his report is being delayed.

Lord Saville said he could not discuss the issue without releasing sensitive details of the 10-year investigation.

The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee said it was disappointed Lord Saville had declined to give evidence, but respected his position.

The report is expected to be published in the autumn of next year.

The inquiry was set up in 1998 and has so far cost more than £185m.

Paratroopers shot 27 civilians in Londonderry on Sunday January 30 1972, 13 died that day and a 14th victim some time later.

The tribunal sat for 433 days in Derry and London.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6594|Éire

IG-Calibre wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Nobody does whitewashes like the British justice system!

...sounds like a slogan for a cleaning product!
funny you should say that.. i was just reading this today

The head of the Bloody Sunday Inquiry has told a Westminster committee he will not meet it to explain why his report is being delayed.

Lord Saville said he could not discuss the issue without releasing sensitive details of the 10-year investigation.

The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee said it was disappointed Lord Saville had declined to give evidence, but respected his position.

The report is expected to be published in the autumn of next year.

The inquiry was set up in 1998 and has so far cost more than £185m.

Paratroopers shot 27 civilians in Londonderry on Sunday January 30 1972, 13 died that day and a 14th victim some time later.

The tribunal sat for 433 days in Derry and London.
Lord fucking Saville... I'd have more faith in that report if Jimmy Saville was conducting it.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6589

Braddock wrote:

IG-Calibre wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Nobody does whitewashes like the British justice system!

...sounds like a slogan for a cleaning product!
funny you should say that.. i was just reading this today

The head of the Bloody Sunday Inquiry has told a Westminster committee he will not meet it to explain why his report is being delayed.

Lord Saville said he could not discuss the issue without releasing sensitive details of the 10-year investigation.

The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee said it was disappointed Lord Saville had declined to give evidence, but respected his position.

The report is expected to be published in the autumn of next year.

The inquiry was set up in 1998 and has so far cost more than £185m.

Paratroopers shot 27 civilians in Londonderry on Sunday January 30 1972, 13 died that day and a 14th victim some time later.

The tribunal sat for 433 days in Derry and London.
Lord fucking Saville... I'd have more faith in that report if Jimmy Saville was conducting it.
Jim'll fix it for you.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6410|eXtreme to the maX
Result:

Open verdict, the most harsh verdict the jury could bring.
And they don't believe much of the Police account either.

"Did firearms officer C12 shout armed police?" ANSWER: NO

"Did Mr de Menezes stand up from his seat before he was grabbed in a bear hug by officer Ivor?" ANSWER: YES

"Did Mr de Menezes move towards C12 before he was grabbed in a bear hug by Ivor?" ANSWER: NO

The coroner also asked the jury to consider which of these other factors, if any, contributed to the death. The Jury were allowed to answer "yes", "no" or "cannot decide".

"The pressure on police after the suicide attacks in July 2005." ANSWER: CANNOT DECIDE

"A failure to obtain and provide better photographic images of failed bomber Hussain Osman to surveillance officers." ANSWER: YES

"The general difficulty in providing identification of the man under surveillance in the time available." ANSWER: NO

"The fact that the views of the surveillance officers regarding identification were not accurately communicated to the command team and firearms officers. ANSWER: YES

"A failure by police to ensure that Mr de Menezes was stopped before he reached public transport." ANSWER: YES

"The innocent behaviour of Mr de Menezes increasing suspicion." ANSWER: NO

"The fact that the position of the cars containing the firearms officers was not accurately known by the command team as firearms teams were approaching Stockwell Tube." ANSWER: YES

"Shortcomings in the communications system between various police teams on the ground." ANSWER: YES

"Failure to conclude at the time that surveillance officers could have been used to carry out the stop on Mr de Menezes at Stockwell." ANSWER: YES

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7764882.stm
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7761652.stm

So in summary, the jury has concluded Menezes was NOT lawfully killed, did not bring any suspicion on himself, and the poor Police organisation was a large part of this fuck-up.

Not a bad day for justice, but the verdict should have been 'Unlawfully killed' IMO
Shame that option was not available to the jury, as it should have been.
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