BF2S Forums A less passive Europe

I disagree Pug. I think all the disparate regions of what should be a wonderfully pluralistic world should develop from within not from without. Patronisingly offering/imposing moral and political 'leadership' on alien peoples is about as arrogant and doomed to failure as you could probably get. I completely disagree with your attitude of spreading your will and being forcefully or aggressively influential.

On the matters you highlighted:

1. US foreign policy is US foreign policy. It will not bend for anyone external, nor should it. This was strongly in evidence when Bush essentially reneged on all of his promises to Tony Blair to push the Palestine question to the forefront (soon forgotten when the UK were firmly entrenched in Iraq).

2. See above. The only arbiter of justice there could be in this matter is the US. Israel is heavily heavily reliant on the US to remain in existence. It ensures this through lobby groups like AIPAC and its machinations in US politics. Let's face it - Obama's first hire: Rahm Emmanuel. If the US could extricate themselves from their unhelpful bias then perhaps, as nearly occurred under Clinton, a solution could be found. Europe will never be listened to on Palestine - not least because Germany has to act sheepish over its own past crimes.

3. I see nuclear proliferation as a natural progression. In China in the 9th century gunpowder was invented. This military technology has now spread to every corner of the globe. Nuclear weapons will do likewise. I find it arrogant, patronising and a complete double-standard that the rest of the world must have their military capabilities curtailed in favour of the incumbent military powers. And as for what Europe is doing right now? They're engaged in talks with Iran - but quite frankly Iran have copious amounts of oil and we know what that means.

4. There does not need to be any greater leadership demonstrated over Russia. Keep above or on a par with them militarily is about all that can be asked for. Russia are a strategically very important country. Alienating them and treating them as an 'issue that needs to be resolved' is tantamount to shooting yourself in the foot.

5. Setting the example for everyone else is currently underway in Europe. Ireland for example has a target of energy from renewables of 42% by 2020 and I know from working in the industry that there is at least that amount of wind generation applications in the queue. Carbon taxes are being implemented and there has been no short-sighted whining about how 'this will affect jobs'. If someone wants to follow our example then so be it - it is completely their own prerogative.

M.O.A.B wrote:

Haven't seen that happen yet

You missed Vietnam, Ireland, India, the Phillipines? lol

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-11-08 10:37:52)

I agree.

M.O.A.B wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Haven't seen that happen yet

You missed Vietnam, Ireland, India, the Phillipines? lol

I'm talking about recent events like Iraq, which is improving its situation. Also, if I'm not mistaken, NI isn't united with the Republic yet.

Iraq will only be the way it is now with 400,000 foreign soldiers there suppressing seething inter-ethnic tension that will have to come out at some point between now and the end of eternity. Turkey are currently taking potshots at Kurdistan and the only reason there is peace in the west is because the US have engaged in the same mistake they engaged in the 80s in Afghanistan - they have armed local militias (much like they armed the Taliban - and we all know how that worked out...). In Northern Ireland you have two diametrically opposed segments of society that hate each others guts. The Stormont assembly is at a complete and utter stalemate. How pray tell is this an argument for just and forceful leadership? The Irish will never willingly accept UK rule, they will tear it down at the earliest opportunity (prob 2025 going on demographics).

usmarine wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I agree.

seconded

With what - the OP?

usmarine wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

usmarine wrote:

seconded

With what - the OP?

no the color of the text....yes the OP

What I'd like to know is why you guys are all so intent on interfering with regions of the world and distant other nations. Why does anyone have to be proactive on these things?

I think everything is fine the way it is. If you don't like Europeans talking about American foreign policy, make your own forum and ban everyone outside the US from posting.

CameronPoe wrote:

usmarine wrote:

resources for survival.  next

At least you're being candid. For me, that sucks as a reason to fuck with other people. I'd prefer science and innovation to drive self sufficiency.

What about a country with virtually nothing i.e Japan?

CameronPoe wrote:

usmarine wrote:

resources for survival.  next

At least you're being candid. For me, that sucks as a reason to fuck with other people. I'd prefer science and innovation to drive self sufficiency.

life aint fair.  ow well.

Turquoise wrote:

What's particularly ironic about marine's response is that the Soviet Union did the same sort of thing during the Cold War.

yep...they fell and we are still here.  /win

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

usmarine wrote:

resources for survival.  next

You were the one always talking about how Oil wasn't the real for the invasion of Iraq. Also, what resources are there in Afghanistan anyway? (can't see why the USSR went in their either)

strategic placement of forces / govts.  next.

Turquoise wrote:

We defeated the evil empire only to become one ourselves.

oh well.  i bet zebra think lions are mean also.  but at the end of the day the lion has to eat, and the zebra cant do anything about it.