BF2S Forums Thank You

lowing wrote:

Well, I guess, on behalf of the president who has kept terrorism off of American soil for the past 8 years after countless attempts, all for the sake of you coming in here and safely bitching how terrible your life and our country was, I will say you are welcome.

How accomidating to the new president will you be, if and when we are attacked again, and it wipes out your internet connection without any retaliation?

You are drowning in your own nonsense lowing.

Bush, 'the great saviour', saved you all from terrorism for 8 years did he? Who was in charge when the worst terrorist attack on US soil actually took place? Sure, you'll blame the previous administrations for what happened to Bush but at the end of the day there is one thing that would have prevented the 9/11 attacks... proper fucking security checks at airports, and 'Bush the great defender' needed a huge, fucking wake up call to implement that.

Anyone who buys into the argument that fighting wars overseas is a way of keeping conflict away from home is deluded. Domestic security has gone through the roof since 9/11 and that is what has increased safety at home. All of these bullshit wars of choice throughout the Middle East have been a distraction... and worse than that, they have cynically capitalised on the high emotions of the American people after the attacks of the twin towers.

We are now at an end of the Bush era and we can look at the facts:

1. The American economy is fucked
2. You now have a huge deficit (despite Clinton having left Bush a generous surplus)
3. The foreign policy in the Middle East has been a failure
4. America has become one of the most hated planets in the world
5. Terror still exists (despite war having been waged on it)

He was officially rubbish.

Last edited by Braddock (2008-11-05 03:32:17)

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

Well, I guess, on behalf of the president who has kept terrorism off of American soil for the past 8 years after countless attempts, all for the sake of you coming in here and safely bitching how terrible your life and our country was, I will say you are welcome.

How accomidating to the new president will you be, if and when we are attacked again, and it wipes out your internet connection without any retaliation?

You are drowning in your own nonsense lowing.

Bush, 'the great saviour', saved you all from terrorism for 8 years did he? Who was in charge when the worst terrorist attack on US soil actually took place? Sure, you'll blame the previous administrations for what happened to Bush but at the end of the day there is one thing that would have prevented the 9/11 attacks... proper fucking security checks at airports, and 'Bush the great defender' needed a huge, fucking wake up call to implement that.

Anyone who buys into the argument that fighting wars overseas is a way of keeping conflict away from home is deluded. Domestic security has gone through the roof since 9/11 and that is what has increased safety at home. All of these bullshit wars of choice throughout the Middle East have been a distraction... and worse than that, they have cynically capitalised on the high emotions of the American people after the attacks of the twin towers.

We are now at an end of the Bush era and we can look at the facts:

1. The American economy is fucked
2. You now have a huge deficit (despite Clinton having left Bush a generous surplus)
3. The foreign policy in the Middle East has been a failure
4. America has become one of the most hated planets in the world
5. Terror still exists (despite war having been waged on it)

He was officially rubbish.

First and foremost, I am not a supporter of either McCain or Bush but to read these forums and see how everything is blamed on ONE MAN....is ridiculous. It took a group of idiots on both sides to put us in this situation.

1) The American economy is fucked because Democrats and Republicans alike chose to ignore the signs about 2-3 years ago. There is ample video evidence that shows how ignorant some people in Congress were and you can not blame Bush for that mess. Banks and lending institutions went crazy and no one blinked an eye until it was too late. When someone did say something, he was brushed aside. Obama was one of those who stated not to worry, Barney Frank and a few other select Democratic leaders. Please remember that the Dems have had control for awhile now and could have helped sound the horn but didn't and both sides deserve blame...no one man

2) The deficit...no real argument there accept that you cant put total admiration on Clinton. After all he had a Republican congress for his two terms. So again, with success, the praise should go both ways because without the help of the Senate and House..nothing would have gotten done. It is not and never was the sole responsibility of Clinton.

3) Foreign Policy in the Middle East. Can you please show me where there has been a "Successful" foreign policy regarding the Middle East??? The Middle East will be forever a mess because too many religions, too many cultures, too many people believe that place is their birth right concerning the MAIN issue in the middle east with Israel and the Palestinians. The Middle East, for thousands of years has been place of war, of religious extremism. It will be no different a thousand years from now. Does Ireland have a "Successful" foreign policy or solution for the Middle East? Come on....its like trying to stop a leaky dam with an bottom less bucket...there isn't such a thing!!!

4) America being most hated? I am not sure if I agree totally. Are we wounded, yes. Do we still try to do the right things as a people. I believe so but time can change and will. Our country is not that old, it will see its up and downs as any country has experienced. We will be no different than many others.

5) Terrorism does still exist and always will. Yes, our country and many others will have to fight terrorism. Is there a right or wrong way to do it. We will have to learn. But terrorism has been around long before Bush and will be here long after Bush and I guarantee Americans and many other people will die of terrorism even when Obama is president. They will not stop just because Obama is president and again, to lay blame on one man for the spread of terrorism is ridiculous. Please remember that again, the duocracy in the country can take great pleasure that they both helped put this country where it is today. Terrorists will give a flying fuck who is in charge. We will still be a target.

6) Although this is not related to your post, I have to say this because of what I am reading in these forums. Lastly, to blame Bush for 9-11 is totally sickening. I blame the group of cowards who took those planes and killed thousands of innocent people of all races and religions on that day. To sit there and think that Bush or anyone could have stopped it is ridiculous. High jacking and the threat of smashing planes into buildings has been around LONG before Bush. The planning for that attack was well in place before Bush took office. Again, blaming one man is ludicrous and not blaming the REAL perpetrators is astonishing!!!

Bottom line....American is where it is because of the foolishness from both sides of the aisle in our government. Our political parties need to stop trying to be more powerful than the other and start working TOGETHER. Our government needs to allow more than two parties to help run this country. For too long, too many select few make all the decisions and beat down anyone that tries to come up. Our forefathers did not expect our political structure to end up as it is today, where only the rich can become president where millions upon millions up millions is spent to pick one man for president. This is totally backwards from where we started and I dint see it getting any better anytime soon no matter who is president.

I blame the group of cowards who took those planes and killed thousands of innocent people of all races and religions on that day.

Agreed

To sit there and think that Bush or anyone could have stopped it is ridiculous.

If Bush had taken some action, any action, he could have stopped it - as various people are claiming now he has prevented numerous attacks since.
'Bin Laden determined to attack America, probably by hijacking passenger aircraft' just doesn't get any clearer.
Instead he chose to ignore the warnings and do nothing whatever.

Who knows what could have been achieved if he'd just done 'something'.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-11-05 04:36:08)

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

1) The American economy is fucked because Democrats and Republicans alike chose to ignore the signs about 2-3 years ago. There is ample video evidence that shows how ignorant some people in Congress were and you can not blame Bush for that mess. Banks and lending institutions went crazy and no one blinked an eye until it was too late. When someone did say something, he was brushed aside. Obama was one of those who stated not to worry, Barney Frank and a few other select Democratic leaders. Please remember that the Dems have had control for awhile now and could have helped sound the horn but didn't and both sides deserve blame...no one man

Quite true but Bush was the supposed leader, he should have shown leadership. It could also be argued that without a two front war more care and attention could have been directed towards such important matters.

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

2) The deficit...no real argument there accept that you cant put total admiration on Clinton. After all he had a Republican congress for his two terms. So again, with success, the praise should go both ways because without the help of the Senate and House..nothing would have gotten done. It is not and never was the sole responsibility of Clinton.

I know how American politics works... Clinton wasn't responsible for his the successes of his time, the Republican senate was and Bush wasn't responsible for the failures of his time, the Democrat House of Representatives was... both sides do it and to and an outsider it simply seems like shifting the goalposts whenever it suits. I know this is an overly simplistic way to analyse politics but when a football team plays bad it's the manager who gets sacked, not the physio; when a film is rubbish it's the director who gets blamed, not the foley artist... ultimately the buck must stop, at least somewhat, on the doorstep of the man at the top.

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

3) Foreign Policy in the Middle East. Can you please show me where there has been a "Successful" foreign policy regarding the Middle East??? The Middle East will be forever a mess because too many religions, too many cultures, too many people believe that place is their birth right concerning the MAIN issue in the middle east with Israel and the Palestinians. The Middle East, for thousands of years has been place of war, of religious extremism. It will be no different a thousand years from now. Does Ireland have a "Successful" foreign policy or solution for the Middle East? Come on....its like trying to stop a leaky dam with an bottom less bucket...there isn't such a thing!!!

Yes, the Middle East is a huge big mess, always has been. But what Bush decided to do beggars belief... he literally decided to set up camp in the hornet's itself nest on the back of a bogus Powerpoint presentation by Colon [sic] Powell. This greatly tarnished an American reputation that was already in the gutter in that region as a result of years of unconditional support for a brutally heavy-handed Israeli regime. So in response to your statement, yes the Middle East is a mess and it's definitely not easy to implement a policy that will make the region better but Bush successfully managed to implement a policy that has made the region a whole lot worse. 

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

4) America being most hated? I am not sure if I agree totally. Are we wounded, yes. Do we still try to do the right things as a people. I believe so but time can change and will. Our country is not that old, it will see its up and downs as any country has experienced. We will be no different than many others.

Not the most hated... not by a long shot, but it was one of the most hated nations for a while there; I suppose purely because they have more of a direct effect on the rest of the Western world than other, more remote, tyrant regimes. It is true that it became fashionable, to a certain extent, to hate America once the common opinion took hold but this comon opinion still came about because of real issues that most people gave serious consideration to; issues such as disregard for International regulations on torture, detainment, preemptive strikes, disregard for International borders, arms deals to questionable nations and so on.

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

5) Terrorism does still exist and always will. Yes, our country and many others will have to fight terrorism. Is there a right or wrong way to do it. We will have to learn. But terrorism has been around long before Bush and will be here long after Bush and I guarantee Americans and many other people will die of terrorism even when Obama is president. They will not stop just because Obama is president and again, to lay blame on one man for the spread of terrorism is ridiculous. Please remember that again, the duocracy in the country can take great pleasure that they both helped put this country where it is today. Terrorists will give a flying fuck who is in charge. We will still be a target.

Yes, terrorism will always exist but America's biggest mistake in the 'war on terror' was to raise the stakes in the way in which they did. They decided to use a sledgehammer to crack open a nut and this alienated some previously strong allies. They also created an apocalyptical, endgame mentality for extremists which actually served as a recruiting drive... surgical strikes and covert operations against terror cells don't provide effective propaganda for extremists, at least not in the same way that full scale wars against 'innocent' Muslim nations do, which get splashed all over the front pages of the news.

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

6) Although this is not related to your post, I have to say this because of what I am reading in these forums. Lastly, to blame Bush for 9-11 is totally sickening. I blame the group of cowards who took those planes and killed thousands of innocent people of all races and religions on that day. To sit there and think that Bush or anyone could have stopped it is ridiculous. High jacking and the threat of smashing planes into buildings has been around LONG before Bush. The planning for that attack was well in place before Bush took office. Again, blaming one man is ludicrous and not blaming the REAL perpetrators is astonishing!!!

You are correct that the scenario which took place on 9/11 is not something anyone can ever plan for comprehensively in foresight but if Bush had at least taken the time to read the 'Osama intending to strike within US using civilian passenger planes' intelligence document that was sitting on his desk it might have at least given him a slight heads up.

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Bottom line....American is where it is because of the foolishness from both sides of the aisle in our government. Our political parties need to stop trying to be more powerful than the other and start working TOGETHER. Our government needs to allow more than two parties to help run this country. For too long, too many select few make all the decisions and beat down anyone that tries to come up. Our forefathers did not expect our political structure to end up as it is today, where only the rich can become president where millions upon millions up millions is spent to pick one man for president. This is totally backwards from where we started and I dint see it getting any better anytime soon no matter who is president.

I completely agree with you here.

imortal wrote:

Braddock wrote:

You are correct that the scenario which took place on 9/11 is not something anyone can ever plan for comprehensively in foresight but if Bush had at least taken the time to read the 'Osama intending to strike within US using civilian passenger planes' intelligence document that was sitting on his desk it might have at least given him a slight heads up.

Have you ever stopped to wonder what had been in those daily intelligence briefings for the 8 months leading up to 9/11?  There was a single item on one day in a report he gets daily, with no special emphasis to make it stand out among the myriad other little tidbits there.  I am sure that looking at the form, there was no highlighted box (with the rest of the document dramatically shaded out) pointing to the information.  But, in hindsight, everyone can point to this one bit and scream "Bush knew!"

What else was on those briefings that never came to pass, I wonder?

So those reports are a waste of time? Something to be skimmed over but not acted upon?

imortal wrote:

Braddock wrote:

You are correct that the scenario which took place on 9/11 is not something anyone can ever plan for comprehensively in foresight but if Bush had at least taken the time to read the 'Osama intending to strike within US using civilian passenger planes' intelligence document that was sitting on his desk it might have at least given him a slight heads up.

Have you ever stopped to wonder what had been in those daily intelligence briefings for the 8 months leading up to 9/11?  There was a single item on one day in a report he gets daily, with no special emphasis to make it stand out among the myriad other little tidbits there.  I am sure that looking at the form, there was no highlighted box (with the rest of the document dramatically shaded out) pointing to the information.  But, in hindsight, everyone can point to this one bit and scream "Bush knew!"

What else was on those briefings that never came to pass, I wonder?

Wasn't there a hearing about just that ?

Dilbert_X wrote:

I blame the group of cowards who took those planes and killed thousands of innocent people of all races and religions on that day.

Agreed

To sit there and think that Bush or anyone could have stopped it is ridiculous.

If Bush had taken some action, any action, he could have stopped it - as various people are claiming now he has prevented numerous attacks since.
'Bin Laden determined to attack America, probably by hijacking passenger aircraft' just doesn't get any clearer.
Instead he chose to ignore the warnings and do nothing whatever.

Who knows what could have been achieved if he'd just done 'something'.

I will never agree with this. The president is not the only person to see these documents. In fact, I am POSITIVE Clinton saw many of the SAME types of warnings leading up to the change in presidency. To think that high jacking and smashing planes only was written about in a few month period when Bush became president is absolutely retarded.

When a group of people or individuals have their mind made up to go kill someone or a group of people, in some cases it will get through. It is like blaming the principal of a high school or local police station because they weren't able to stop a kid or a couple of kids from shooting up the local school. It is impossible to stop everyone, a few will slip through. Remember the shoe bomber......

There have been attacks thwarted and actually the shoe bomber did get on a plane but failed to pull it off. It could have been worse. On the other hand, I am sure there are attacks being planned and sooner or later we will be attacked again. We may not have been attacked on our soil yet but I do recall some other countries being attacked as well....Spain, Britain...etc, etc, etc and yet how come those attacks weren't magically stopped.

The point is, as far back as the 1970's, high jackings and REPORTS of how terrorists might use this technique has been around and the notion of ramming planes into objects or just to kill people has been around for just as long. It is totally and absolutely retarded to blame Bush for 9-11 and to actually believe that it could have been stopped. It happened and ultimately the blame rests on the terrorists. Innocent people died because evil people were determined to kill, that is all you have to blame. Put the blame where it should be.

It doesn't take a genius for a group of people to high jack a plane, All it takes is one or a group of determined individuals. Do we just keep out every Arab man that comes to this country? Is that fair? How can we know who the next terrorist will be. It is like thinking that every child molester looks like a bad man, every murder or serial killer looks evil or scary. You just cant tell by looking into a man's face sometimes. It is almost impossible to trace EVERY SINGLE MAN WOMAN AND CHILD THAT COMES INTO THIS COUNTRY TO KNOW WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN OR WHAT THEY ARE PLANNING. Totally impossible!!!! Not all terrorists leave behind a trail that can be easily followed.

By the way, what about the next Timothy McVeigh.......Damn that Bill Clinton for not stopping him. Its all Clinton's fault. I can't believe Bill Clinton missed the opportunity. What the hell was he thinking, he should have known. Bill Clinton, it is all your fault!!!!!!

Braddock wrote:

Here guys, it is quite simple. Proper checks at airports would have prevented 9/11. If Bush or any other President truly had domestic security on the brain they would tightened these kind of things up immediately because planes have been getting hijacked for years now.

But never a terrorist-related hijacking in the United States.  Domestic security was never an issue beforehand.  Look at how people bitch about the Security Act.  aka we didn't have Europe's problems and we didn't have the years and years of experience that Europe had.

So you are correct, but unfortunately something HAD to happen before we changed our policies.

Last edited by Pug (2008-11-05 06:21:41)

Reciprocity wrote:

lowing wrote:

Well, I guess, on behalf of the president who has kept terrorism off of American soil for the past 8 years

yeah, except for that one time.  boy that sucked.

And the other time a year later, or has everyone forgotten about the beltway snipers. Yes, they were terrorists. They were certainly sentenced as terrorists.

its obnoxious and bitter conservatives like you guys that made this entire country shift democrat.


You know, there isnt a single republican member of the house from new england.  First time in GOP history.  Republicans turned into the party of the evangelical,  might have won you 2000, it lost you guys 2008.

Last edited by God Save the Queen (2008-11-05 06:54:46)

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

yeah, except for that one time.  boy that sucked.

And the other time a year later, or has everyone forgotten about the beltway snipers. Yes, they were terrorists. They were certainly sentenced as terrorists.

Oh Good call on that one, What about the antrax? Does that count as well, not sure when that happened..

But hey people will belive what they belive and I'm sure if you have faith in something it makes it true.. We really need to start running our country on our god given brain..

Yup, that counts too. I forgot about that.

So at least 2 terrorist incidents that made international headlines since then......

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

Well, I guess, on behalf of the president who has kept terrorism off of American soil for the past 8 years

Except for that one time when it mattered the most, thinking that if he had taken action just a tad earlier 9/11 could have been avoided ... good going lowing ...

so why do you not blame clinton?  oh i know why.  nvm.