usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6752

"About 90 percent of pregnant women who are given a Down syndrome diagnosis have chosen to have an abortion."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/09/us/09 … ;partner=r


Have we gone from a right to choose to a right to an easier life?  or are we doing these kids a favor?  or for you religious people, are we playing god? 

tough one eh?
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6437|Chicago, IL
It's always a tough choice, but the addition of a crippling and lifelong disease would make it an easier one...
chittydog
less busy
+586|6825|Kubra, Damn it!

Is chemotherapy playing god? Bypass surgery? The nitroglycerin pills people with heart problems take? Yes, this is the flip side of the question, sustaining life rather than stopping it as it's beginning, but the root of it is the same: deciding who lives and who dies.

You're asking a hard question. Personally, I don't think I could terminate a pregnancy, but I'm not willing to make that decision for someone else.
Roc18
`
+655|5781|PROLLLY PROLLLY PROLLLY
Like I said in the other thread, abortion should only be used in instances that threatens the life of the mother. Put yourself in that position, your mother doesnt want to give birth to you so she decides to destroy you and not give you a chance at life, its a human life we are dealing with and deciding to kill a developing child or not only because someone got accidentally pregnant is wrong. And with instances such as rape, the solution isnt to kill the developing child in your stomach,  and before everyone says a baby thats not born isnt a human life yet then you are saying that you wouldnt mind your mother getting rid of you if you werent born yet and I find that strange.

But realistically people only have opinions on the issue and really cant do anything about it since its legal and became so controversial.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6571|the dank(super) side of Oregon
It's simply a convenience of modern medicine.  And most modern medicine is playing god. 

Personally, I think it does make life easier for the parents and I think it is a "favor" to prevent a life of isolation and perpetual dependence on family and society.  But let me clarify that I am not anti-handicap, and I think it is our society's responsibility to accomidate and protect the mental and physically disabled.  But overriding that sentiment is an individual/parent's right to choose their own course in life, even if it's death.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6752

well tbh, some of the examples you guys use are for the living.  most have solid mind to make decisions.  i am talking about "selection" of who gets born.
SharkyMcshark
I'll take two
+132|6775|Perth, Western Australia
I dunno. I'm fairly pro choice but I believe that it shouldn't ever be used to select things like the gender of a baby, or in my opinion to remove a foetus that will have some physical disability. However, in terms of lifelong mental disability... I dunno. Gets more complicated there.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6680|Tampa Bay Florida
Good thread marine

Reciprocity wrote:

It's simply a convenience of modern medicine.  And most modern medicine is playing god.
I agree with you.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6571|the dank(super) side of Oregon

usmarine wrote:

well tbh, some of the examples you guys use are for the living.  most have solid mind to make decisions.  i am talking about "selection" of who gets born.
Examples?  Of medical care?  Playing god only applies if you believe in god.  As I wrote, prenatal termination is the choice of the parents.  Which is not to say society shouldn't accomidate those born mentally handicapped, but society should not mandate the existence of the genetically, mentally handicapped, in this case, those with Down's syndrome.
Smithereener
Member
+138|6306|California
I'm pretty much pro-choice, though I believe that it shouldn't be used as the convenient way out.

However, I'm sort of torn when people choose to abort because the child will be born with some kind of defect. I might sound a bit ignorant from here, but bear with it. Do people with Down's Syndrome think the same way that "normal" people do? Or do they have a different thought process or stunted ability to think?

If it's the latter, I'd hope they'd be able to live in an ignorant bliss and I'd be morally opposed to having them aborted due to their defect. People are assholes, and if they can ignore the judgmental impressions of "normal" people by essentially being unaware, I'd say that's a good thing. At least they can live happily in their own realities.

However, in the case of the former, it'd be a lot harder for me to stand that way. I'd still feel really guilty if I were in the situation where the person I got pregnant was to abort, but putting myself into the shoes of someone with Down's Syndrome with the same ability to think as "normal" people, I'm not sure if I'd be too happy. Everyone knows the whole angsty phase that teens go through, trying to find a place where they belong. That and group mentality. I can't imagine how insanely difficult it would be for someone who has an obvious physical defect (it is fairly easy to recognize someone with Down's) to cast a first impression that would enable them to feel comfortable around those "normal" kids. I'd imagine they'd get shunned more easily. In that case, what would those things, knowing that people look at you differently because of how you look or being unable to easily make friends with people that are at first glance different from you, be except burdens? Is it morally acceptable to prevent that kind of suffering? Maybe, but at the same time, deciding whether or not someone gets to live isn't really something I'd call moral.

In the end, I would probably choose to abort if kids with Down's think the same way as everyone else. I wouldn't want anyone going through the sufferings that I imagine would befall them. I know that's kind of selfish, I know it'll probably haunt me, but I do believe it's the lesser of two evils. Though I know that I might have gotten it all wrong, and would've snuffed out a life because of what I thought, instead of what it actually is.

I think I may have gone off on a tangent here. :wtf: I was a bit shocked about the 90% statistic though.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6401|'Murka

S.Lythberg wrote:

It's always a tough choice, but the addition of a crippling and lifelong disease would make it an easier one...
Down Syndrome isn't though.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6665|Canberra, AUS

chittydog wrote:

Is chemotherapy playing god? Bypass surgery? The nitroglycerin pills people with heart problems take? Yes, this is the flip side of the question, sustaining life rather than stopping it as it's beginning, but the root of it is the same: deciding who lives and who dies.

You're asking a hard question. Personally, I don't think I could terminate a pregnancy, but I'm not willing to make that decision for someone else.
Basically sums up my opinion. I personally don't like it but I'm not about to go stamping my opinions over everyone else.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6370|MN
Abortion is never an option.  Unless it is for the survival of the mother, and even then if it was me, and it came down to me or the child, well see ya later.  Hope my family can get along without me.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6697|67.222.138.85
People who don't have a defined personality beyond genetics aren't people at all.
Hakei
Banned
+295|5985
It's the choice of the mother.
CC-Marley
Member
+407|6819
Never understood why most pro-abortion people are against the death penalty.
Drakef
Cheeseburger Logicist
+117|6352|Vancouver

CC-Marley wrote:

Never understood why most pro-abortion people are against the death penalty.
And vice versa. You know it's far more complicated than that.

I find it morally abhorrent to willingly bring into this world a child that is to suffer from a something like Down's Syndrome. It is no different than inflicting the disease or condition ourselves.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6641|USA

usmarine wrote:

"About 90 percent of pregnant women who are given a Down syndrome diagnosis have chosen to have an abortion."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/09/us/09 … ;partner=r


Have we gone from a right to choose to a right to an easier life?  or are we doing these kids a favor?  or for you religious people, are we playing god? 

tough one eh?
There is no answer to this question: Every answer will be correct for the person giving the answer.

I made my decision a long time ago, and I have lived to regret it. What was right for me at the moment was the worst mistake of my life. I can not, nor will not, tell another what they should do or judge them for doing it.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6096|eXtreme to the maX
No easy answer, IMO we are doing these kids a favour.
Abortion is horrible, and I mean horrible, but given the knowledge in advance I'd rather use my personal resources to adopt, or fund a needy child abroad.
Better to help an existing child than create another who will have very limited quality of life.

But its a personal choice for everyone and I respect that.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6680|Tampa Bay Florida

Drakef wrote:

CC-Marley wrote:

Never understood why most pro-abortion people are against the death penalty.
And vice versa. You know it's far more complicated than that.

I find it morally abhorrent to willingly bring into this world a child that is to suffer from a something like Down's Syndrome. It is no different than inflicting the disease or condition ourselves.
Isnt it also convenient how homosexuality is a choice to worship satan and being down syndrome is just an unfortunate random event that nature causes?

Last edited by Spearhead (2008-09-20 01:46:35)

Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6611|London, England
I personally don't like it (aborting), but as someone who has a second cousin with DS I can sort of see how it really would change your life if you had to bring up a kid with it, so I wouldn't complain if someone aborted their baby because it was found to have DS or things like that. I mean it's pretty cruel (especially me to say that)l....but I think we've all learned that the world, nature, life...the universe...everything isn't exactly a fun and fair place. Quite the total opposite.

It's all just luck. I just count myself lucky that I:

Was born a human
Was born without any defects or anything like that
Was born into a rich country/middle class household

etc..

Last edited by Mek-Stizzle (2008-09-20 01:54:15)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6545
I would not regard down syndrome as something that 'justifies' having an abortion.
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6213|Brisneyland
Although we are focussing on Down Syndrome here. There are other diseases that highlight the problem as well. The one that springs to mind for me is Cystic Fibrosis. Patient will be fine mentally, however his/her lungs will fill up with mucous and will be in terrible pain and discomfort for the rest of its life. If the result of an amniocentesis told me that my baby had genes for CF, I would pretty much have to abort ( cruel as it sounds).
Some lung transplants do work later on in life, however these are hard to get and from memory, some patients have reverted.
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6637

Drakef wrote:

CC-Marley wrote:

Never understood why most pro-abortion people are against the death penalty.
And vice versa. You know it's far more complicated than that.

I find it morally abhorrent to willingly bring into this world a child that is to suffer from a something like Down's Syndrome. It is no different than inflicting the disease or condition ourselves.
Yeah.

And like, if I know my kid is going to be bad at sports, its abortion time.

Seriously wtf is wrong with you.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6401|'Murka

Drakef wrote:

CC-Marley wrote:

Never understood why most pro-abortion people are against the death penalty.
And vice versa. You know it's far more complicated than that.

I find it morally abhorrent to willingly bring into this world a child that is to suffer from a something like Down's Syndrome. It is no different than inflicting the disease or condition ourselves.
You clearly don't know the first thing about Down Syndrome.

Research chromosome deletion disorders. Or trisomy 18. Or any number of other genetic disorders. Down Syndrome is not "suffering" in general.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

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