Braddock
Agitator
+916|6287|Éire
Why Religious People Have No Right To Laugh At Conspiracy Theories

After engaging in a debate on the topic of religion, and particularly how religion attempts to interpret scientific matters, I noticed certain similarities between the way a conspiracy theorist's mind works and how a religious person's mind works.

Some religious people fully believe that their religious belief employs both faith as well as reason and logic - for example they might see the irreducible complexity of a human cell as so perfect that to them to believe someone created or designed it is completely rational. This observation of the human cell itself doesn't in any way show actual proof of a designer's hand, it just appears to be so well designed that one might choose to assume it had to be created by some God-like figure...in other words they take an interesting observation and shape it around their beliefs as a 'fact' and then use this 'fact' to detract from other competing theories.

In the same way a conspiracy theorist hears a story that intrigues and excites them, they want to believe it and so they look for any evidence that might support this story. They may stumble on a couple of interesting facts that throw doubt on existing explanations and because of their desire to believe they take this alone as "proof" of the conspiracy theory - for example a conspiracy theorist may believe that the world trade centre was deliberately demolished on September 11th because of the the shape of the roof and debris plumes at the time of collapse or the diagonally-cut column stumps seen in the debris in the aftermath. Interesting observations but ones that don't explain how the explosives were all put in place without arousing any interest prior to the catastrophe or how no one has ever let slip about the operation despite the number of people that would be required to implement such a plan. Also, with the observation of the column stumps it could be argued that the cuts may have been made during clean up after the collapse.

But these arguments often fall on deaf ears when dealing with a committed conspiracy theorist and similarly when arguing with a person with religious beliefs you will find that they will hold fast to the evidence that supports their beliefs while dismissing contradictory evidence. They will also often try and use doubt as proof and when all is said and done they will throw reason and logic completely out the window and say it is simply a matter of faith at the end of the day - similarly a conspiracy theorist will ultimately write off anyone who rejects their conspiracy theory as either "brainwashed" or part of the conspiracy theory itself.

Religion = conspiracy theory
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6807|Nårvei

Interesting read but you seem to forget that you really can't convince a religious audience against their beliefs if that was your intention ... religion is all about belief, proof and hard facts has nothing to do with it.

I just think it is to easy to make the comparison between religion and conspiracy theory although they seem to be very similar ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6287|Éire

Varegg wrote:

Interesting read but you seem to forget that you really can't convince a religious audience against their beliefs if that was your intention ... religion is all about belief, proof and hard facts has nothing to do with it.

I just think it is to easy to make the comparison between religion and conspiracy theory although they seem to be very similar ...
It just struck me how an argumentative technique that would be blown out the water in any other topic gets a pass when it comes to the topic of God. It's interesting, I always use the analogy of a court case when talking about religion and science. Science would defend itself using forensic evidence and measurable facts that would have to stand up in a court of law whereas religion would use circumstantial evidence and eyewitness testimonies.

Last edited by Braddock (2008-08-19 02:44:07)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6408|'Murka

While the argumentative techniques may be similar, there is a distinct difference.

Religion is belief in the absence of proof.

Conspiracy theorists believe DESPITE proof to the contrary.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|6807|Nårvei

FEOS wrote:

Conspiracy theorists believe DESPITE proof to the contrary.
That can also be applied to religion seeing as the bible has been proven wrong on specific events, with that said parts of the bible is supposed to be metaphors rather than based on the text alone ... and some religious people discard the bible as a source of belief and holds the existence of God as the all mighty creator as their only belief ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6408|'Murka

And specific events in the Bible and other religious texts have been corroborated by the historical record. I was referring more to the belief in a superior being/deity.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6618|London, England
I also asked what's the difference between a religious person and a conspiracy theorist. Nothing really. It's all about simply believing.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6618|London, England

FEOS wrote:

While the argumentative techniques may be similar, there is a distinct difference.

Religion is belief in the absence of proof.

Conspiracy theorists believe DESPITE proof to the contrary.
There's plenty of proof against Religion for the various things it talks about, you're just unwilling to look at it or believe it. Just like the Conspiracy theorists don't want to listen to their respective counter arguments.
JahManRed
wank
+646|6625|IRELAND

FEOS wrote:

Religion is belief in the absence of proof.
Id say every scientist on the planet would disagree with you on that one.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6287|Éire

FEOS wrote:

While the argumentative techniques may be similar, there is a distinct difference.

Religion is belief in the absence of proof.

Conspiracy theorists believe DESPITE proof to the contrary.
Not necessarily, many conspiracy theories are built on only a small amount of supposed truth and speculation - like conspiracy theories about supposed new world orders that operate behind the scenes of powerful Governments or aliens being kept inside area 51. That could be described as belief in the absence of proof, could it not?
Chrisimo
Member
+3|5749

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

While the argumentative techniques may be similar, there is a distinct difference.

Religion is belief in the absence of proof.

Conspiracy theorists believe DESPITE proof to the contrary.
Not necessarily, many conspiracy theories are built on only a small amount of supposed truth and speculation - like conspiracy theories about supposed new world orders that operate behind the scenes of powerful Governments or aliens being kept inside area 51. That could be described as belief in the absence of proof, could it not?
In most cases there isn't proof anyway. Only faith in people/things.
ReTox
Member
+100|6496|State of RETOXification
Religion is man's attempt to understand something that is outside of our limited experience and something we will likely never fully comprehend.
d4rkst4r
biggie smalls
+72|6450|Ontario, Canada

Braddock wrote:

for example a conspiracy theorist may believe that the world trade centre was deliberately demolished on September 11th because of the the shape of the roof and debris plumes at the time of collapse or the diagonally-cut column stumps seen in the debris in the aftermath. Interesting observations but ones that don't explain how the explosives were all put in place without arousing any interest prior to the catastrophe or how no one has ever let slip about the operation despite the number of people that would be required to implement such a plan.
....There were people that knew about the attacks before it happen. Agents closed off parts of the towers before to "do some maintenance", but were really loading the place up with explosives. Important people were told not to fly that day. I'm not for every crazy conspiracy but it's important to question to stupid shit government does.
"you know life is what we make it, and a chance is like a picture, it'd be nice if you just take it"
jord
Member
+2,382|6675|The North, beyond the wall.

d4rkst4r wrote:

Braddock wrote:

for example a conspiracy theorist may believe that the world trade centre was deliberately demolished on September 11th because of the the shape of the roof and debris plumes at the time of collapse or the diagonally-cut column stumps seen in the debris in the aftermath. Interesting observations but ones that don't explain how the explosives were all put in place without arousing any interest prior to the catastrophe or how no one has ever let slip about the operation despite the number of people that would be required to implement such a plan.
....There were people that knew about the attacks before it happen. Agents closed off parts of the towers before to "do some maintenance", but were really loading the place up with explosives. Important people were told not to fly that day. I'm not for every crazy conspiracy but it's important to question to stupid shit government does.
I can disprove all 9/11 conspiracy theories with 2 words.

London, Madrid.


Unless those were staged too. And all the other attacks are just made up too.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6598|132 and Bush

Most Christian people I know believe that the stuff in the Bible is meant to be allegorical.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6287|Éire

jord wrote:

d4rkst4r wrote:

Braddock wrote:

for example a conspiracy theorist may believe that the world trade centre was deliberately demolished on September 11th because of the the shape of the roof and debris plumes at the time of collapse or the diagonally-cut column stumps seen in the debris in the aftermath. Interesting observations but ones that don't explain how the explosives were all put in place without arousing any interest prior to the catastrophe or how no one has ever let slip about the operation despite the number of people that would be required to implement such a plan.
....There were people that knew about the attacks before it happen. Agents closed off parts of the towers before to "do some maintenance", but were really loading the place up with explosives. Important people were told not to fly that day. I'm not for every crazy conspiracy but it's important to question to stupid shit government does.
I can disprove all 9/11 conspiracy theories with 2 words.

London, Madrid.


Unless those were staged too. And all the other attacks are just made up too.
There are actually plonkers out there who believe the London attack was staged, Channel4 had a documentary about them a while back.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6287|Éire

d4rkst4r wrote:

Braddock wrote:

for example a conspiracy theorist may believe that the world trade centre was deliberately demolished on September 11th because of the the shape of the roof and debris plumes at the time of collapse or the diagonally-cut column stumps seen in the debris in the aftermath. Interesting observations but ones that don't explain how the explosives were all put in place without arousing any interest prior to the catastrophe or how no one has ever let slip about the operation despite the number of people that would be required to implement such a plan.
....There were people that knew about the attacks before it happen. Agents closed off parts of the towers before to "do some maintenance", but were really loading the place up with explosives. Important people were told not to fly that day. I'm not for every crazy conspiracy but it's important to question to stupid shit government does.
I think the idea that the Government took an active role in taking the towers down is utterly ludicrous. How could the same masterminds who pulled off such a masterstroke make such a farcical cock up of the rebuilding plan (or lack thereof) in Iraq? It doesn't add up, too many people would be involved in such a huge cover up and someone would have cracked and spoken out by now.

By all means I would entertain the idea that the Government deliberately let their guard down to leave the door open to an attack and hence a premise for war but not an actual participation in the attacks themselves.

Kmarion wrote:

Most Christian people I know believe that the stuff in the Bible is meant to be allegorical.
I take it they aren't the kind of Christians who believe the world is 6000 years old then!?

Last edited by Braddock (2008-08-19 09:03:42)

Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6467

Braddock wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Interesting read but you seem to forget that you really can't convince a religious audience against their beliefs if that was your intention ... religion is all about belief, proof and hard facts has nothing to do with it.

I just think it is to easy to make the comparison between religion and conspiracy theory although they seem to be very similar ...
It just struck me how an argumentative technique that would be blown out the water in any other topic gets a pass when it comes to the topic of God. It's interesting, I always use the analogy of a court case when talking about religion and science. Science would defend itself using forensic evidence and measurable facts that would have to stand up in a court of law whereas religion would use circumstantial evidence and eyewitness testimonies.
And the jury can STILL decide to rule against the strong evidence and call the person innocent, if they do so wish .

Pretty much an apt extension to your analogy when it comes to talking about faith versus science.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6598|132 and Bush

Braddock wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Most Christian people I know believe that the stuff in the Bible is meant to be allegorical.
I take it they aren't the kind of Christians who believe the world is 6000 years old then!?
Yes, you take it right.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Bell
Frosties > Cornflakes
+362|6546|UK

Braddock wrote:

jord wrote:

d4rkst4r wrote:


....There were people that knew about the attacks before it happen. Agents closed off parts of the towers before to "do some maintenance", but were really loading the place up with explosives. Important people were told not to fly that day. I'm not for every crazy conspiracy but it's important to question to stupid shit government does.
I can disprove all 9/11 conspiracy theories with 2 words.

London, Madrid.


Unless those were staged too. And all the other attacks are just made up too.
There are actually plonkers out there who believe the London attack was staged, Channel4 had a documentary about them a while back.
The accusation from the truth movement that, similar to 9/11 where the govt did atleast practise attacks on the targets, in london, there where also practises on the same stations again (not so sure about the bus).  I think we have all heard that clip on 9/11 where the guy asks is this real world or exercise?  There was a similar confusion for a time on 7/7 as to whether this was a test or not.

Which may or may not mean anything.

Madrid am not so well versed in.  I dont doubt that madrid and atleast the second failed attempt on london where legit (as in real terrorists).

Martyn
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6682|United States of America
Interesting, but I don't see many people looking for the evidence to prove their religious beliefs, as they've already usually proven them to themselves. Nice try to group them with another group widely considered to be crackpots, though.
Sorry about all the short, usmarine-esque replies but I've been really busy these first few days
topal63
. . .
+533|6715
God is a possibility, regardless whether or not any particular belief about it, as a being, holds true. There are unsolved mysteries existing in this reality. At least two or three: why is there anything at all, what is consciousness in itself and what would God be if there is such a thing; being.

You denounce the whole of it; religion; yet you don't really understand it. Fine it's not for you. Fine Biblical Genesis is a literal impossibility, I agree. But, does that mean its' symbolic truths are all false? Every one? Or, that "image" could even mean an immaterial spirit being with a primate's face? You focus on literally interpreted absurdities then decry the whole of it is equal to the stupid ad hoc ad hominen label "conspiracy theory." The label is as unjust as the equating of a wide range of ideas to just one other label "religion." Non-religious people, even atheists, ponder questions, ideals, consider and reflect/meditate about; on or upon; the mystery of being; existence.

Am I to assume Buddhism and every form of Hinduism is contained in your assumption of it as a conspiracy theory. Am I to assume the Gnostic Christian is one and the same as a Fundamentalist Christian or Muslim, just another brainwashed idiot believing in a conspiracy theory?

It's probably a hard thing for a Christian to elaborate on, as example, the idea of grace. Precision is probably difficult to achieve with words when saying they; or one; feels they sense and/or see grace in the world and in others and that emanates; flows; from an unseen force. They feel that they can see it - even if it's hard to describe. Are they right? Or, is it just a man acting (good) on his own accord singularly and disconnected based upon what he knows, even if what he knows is utterly untrue in a scientific/historical sense? We may or may not be disconnected consciousness beings, I wouldn't know, consciousness is an elusive mystery in origin. There is an ecumenical idea that exists - it translates loosely into trying to understand different religions, albeit from a Christian perspective (this is an attempt and that is important). Combine that with this: that the Catholics know that evolution is true. In their inner scholarly circles they have modified their theologies of God the creator, not being creator of that specific specie of toad or insect or whatnot, but rather as creator in relation to matter and space-time (the why is there anything at all?). Don't assume the interpretations of (or theologies surrounding) beloved, ancient or assumed to be "revealed" scripture are static - they aren't. When dealing with an utter mystery - all worldviews thereupon are an interpretation (semiotic and semantic), although some specific-ones can be reasonably ruled out (i.e. a fundamentalist literal overly specific; anti-scientific; anti-knowable-truth; one).

My general feeling is that one-day the Christian (or insert another religion here if you like) worldview will be re-interpreted and refocused away from absurd theologies and certain-faith altogether. They speak of love, self-sacrifice, forgiveness, acceptance, belonging (baptized into a connected community) and grace - maybe one day that is what the-many who call themselves Christian will stand for; and shy away from the literal or old theologies (as if suffering actually entered the world through an Adam that never existed until a latter grace through crucifixion redeemed us. O' the travesty of errors contained in this dogma).

Part of what I say must seem obnoxious from a devout perspective; a perspective that is certain. Part of what I say must seem conciliatory and thus obnoxious from a certain atheistic perspective. My only defense is I am not certain about abstract ideals, concepts or mysteries - as those are very different from specific things that are knowable.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6408|'Murka

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

There's plenty of proof against Religion for the various things it talks about, you're just unwilling to look at it or believe it. Just like the Conspiracy theorists don't want to listen to their respective counter arguments.
As I said, there is certainly proof against specific stories/parables, but there is zero proof that God/Allah/Yaweh/Buddha (henceforth referred to generically as "God") does or does not exist. Hence, belief in the absence of proof.

JahManRed wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Religion is belief in the absence of proof.
Id say every scientist on the planet would disagree with you on that one.
And I'd say you'd be wrong.

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

While the argumentative techniques may be similar, there is a distinct difference.

Religion is belief in the absence of proof.

Conspiracy theorists believe DESPITE proof to the contrary.
Not necessarily, many conspiracy theories are built on only a small amount of supposed truth and speculation - like conspiracy theories about supposed new world orders that operate behind the scenes of powerful Governments or aliens being kept inside area 51. That could be described as belief in the absence of proof, could it not?
It could be...right up until contradictory proof is offered up. Then the conspiracy theorists see the proof against the conspiracy as part of the conspiracy, feeding their belief even more. Hence, belief DESPITE proof to the contrary.

I was speaking in general terms. There are always "not necessarily" moments in any discussion of this type. Specific instances of miracles or natural events that, at the time, were deemed to be supernatural that we know now to have natural or scientific explanations. The bigger picture WRT religion is whether the deity(ies) being worshipped actually exist. That can be neither proven nor disproven based on empirical evidence. In the case of a conspiracy (does it actually exist), that can be proven or disproven based on empirical evidence.

To date, no proof has been put forward that God does not exist. Mostly because it is near (if not entirely) impossible to prove a negative.

That's the significant difference: It is possible to prove that conspiracies do not exist. It is not possible to prove that God does not exist.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6488|Northern California
I like the apparent "FACT" that 95% of the world population (throughout time) are having a psychological fit and are simply conjuring the millions and millions of "coincidences" and outright evidences of nothing!

I literally could prove God's existence (and I probably have attempted it several times in several different ways on this forum), but using the same logic mentioned above that it's impossible to "convince" religionists of their folly, likewise you non-believers would never see the proof.  So as with all the threads of this nature that come up weekly, there is a complete impasse...one side cannot see the other side's reasoning, sadly.  However, as evidenced in some PMs I've received and similar experiences I've had in other places, there's always a handful of people with the ability to "honestly" explore and discover the truth of things by asking.  And for what it's worth, knowing one way or the other about this "simple" topic, is very, very easy...don't even have to spend time googling scientific or religious articles and theories and pretend that you know it all.  Sadly, it's not something discovered on a public forum..especially this one where maturity varies so drastically.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6467

IRONCHEF wrote:

I literally could prove God's existence (and I probably have attempted it several times in several different ways on this forum), but using the same logic mentioned above that it's impossible to "convince" religionists of their folly, likewise you non-believers would never see the proof.
This interests me...

I'm open minded; I've always taken 'facts' and empirical evidence with a pinch of salt and have always firmly held a sort of quasi-spiritual belief that some things (e.g. the origins of the Universe) are just beyond our comprehension... you know, totally beyond the brains' capabilities and beyond the realms of tangible things that we can understand. How do you 'prove' Gods existence? No, this isn't a 'challenge' or jest- genuinely curious.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/

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