David.P
Banned
+649|6244
If all the ancient people's of the world threw off the shackles of religion and morality. I mean if just one brave 'soul' said no to Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad, krishna, or any other 'prophet' or priest. And said "Fuck off!" or" No more of your false gods!" Or if the Masses one day overthrew the power hungry, the Authoritarian, the Evil, the Corrupt, and realized about these so called holymen. What the Gods' want is not in our best interest but in theirs. And proceeded to kill them all. Can you imagine if this one thought of Logic spread like wildfire throughout the ancient world? Carried by trade winds and sea currents, from one civilization to another. Doesn't matter where it started as long as it spread to all the great city states and empires, and caused a massive revolt against all authority and law. Yeeeeeeaah, can you imagine all the scientific discoveries that could've already been made? Or how advanced the world would be right now? I sure can.
.Sup
be nice
+2,646|6424|The Twilight Zone
Oh no, its David.P. Hide!!! So whats the topic here?

Last edited by .Sup (2008-08-17 14:41:30)

https://www.shrani.si/f/3H/7h/45GTw71U/untitled-1.png
jord
Member
+2,382|6649|The North, beyond the wall.
No, because all their countries would be a lot stronger. They could have formed a supermegapower by now.
xBlackPantherx
Grow up, or die
+142|6313|California
In lamest terms, if religion didn't exist. I do agree with you David, to a degree, but you're approaching the status of an Atheistic Utopian. Don't get me wrong, I am atheist too, but it's that Utopian part.

EDIT: Essentially, at least 90% of all major/semi-major wars wouldn't have happened if religion didn't exist.

Last edited by xBlackPantherx (2008-08-17 14:46:37)

Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6441
What?

Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and Persians (among the other great civilisations) didn't make great breakthroughs in the sciences, maths, philosophy and other areas of human/civil advancement? We don't learn most of the mathematic theorems propounded by Greeks such as Pythagoras? Doctors and medical staff don't take the Hippocratic Oath? Most of Western modern philosophy and society isn't based on philosophy first put forward by the likes of Plato, Socrates and Aristotle? All of Europe's main-roads, trade routes and early society wasn't developed by the Romans?

Oh, ok.

Guess having all those deities and Gods really did set us back a few thousand years.

xBlackPantherx wrote:

Essentially, at least 90% of all major/semi-major wars wouldn't have happened if religion didn't exist.
"Essentially" we are a warlike species by nature and would have just found something else to murder, pillage and conquer over. If you're a man of science you would realize this integral element of human nature.

I'm an Atheist / Agnostic (to use Huxley's term), but I don't really think that the ancient civilisations and ancient world was hindered that much by religion. Religion was almost a positive thing to the majority of Greek society, and inspired some of the greatest works of literature and art ever- the true epics by poets such as Homer. Religion was merely a device for us to 'fill in the gaps' back in the days when our mathematic and scientific understanding was limited. If you want to look at a period of history where religion really stifled progress and purposefully hindered humanity- then look at the age of the Catholic Church. That's when the greed and corruption really became apparent.

Last edited by Uzique (2008-08-17 14:59:05)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
David.P
Banned
+649|6244

Uzique wrote:

Oh, ok.

Guess having all those deities and Gods really did set us back a few thousand years.
The point i was trying to make.^^

xBlackPantherx wrote:

In lamest terms, if religion didn't exist. I do agree with you David, to a degree, but you're approaching the status of an Atheistic Utopian. Don't get me wrong, I am atheist too, but it's that Utopian part.

EDIT: Essentially, at least 90% of all major/semi-major wars wouldn't have happened if religion didn't exist.
I'm not an Atheist, I'm an Asshole. There is no such thing as a utopia. I was just suggesting if humans used Logic early on and not Ego and self validation to guide their actions, the world would be alot better off. I mean come on, Which one of us hasn't been sitting in the back of the church wondering what exactly the priest was going on about? All these hypocrisies and contradictions are just A-ok because it's god's will or other shit.

Ahwell back to pissing off christians for me.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6441

David.P wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Oh, ok.

Guess having all those deities and Gods really did set us back a few thousand years.
The point i was trying to make.^^
I guess I'll add '/sarcasm' tags next time around.

Read the first paragraph of mine again and don't be so fucking stupid.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6508|Long Island, New York

David.P wrote:

I'm not an Atheist, I'm an Asshole.
doesn't take one much brainpower to figure that out
xBlackPantherx
Grow up, or die
+142|6313|California

Uzique wrote:

What?

Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and Persians (among the other great civilisations) didn't make great breakthroughs in the sciences, maths, philosophy and other areas of human/civil advancement? We don't learn most of the mathematic theorems propounded by Greeks such as Pythagoras? Doctors and medical staff don't take the Hippocratic Oath? Most of Western modern philosophy and society isn't based on philosophy first put forward by the likes of Plato, Socrates and Aristotle? All of Europe's main-roads, trade routes and early society wasn't developed by the Romans?

Oh, ok.

Guess having all those deities and Gods really did set us back a few thousand years.
Don't think about saying that those discoveries wouldn't have been made without religion. Yes they did make all those discoveries but many weren't exactly influenced by greek mythology. Philosophy doesn't have anything to do with religion. It should have been one of the same, such as Buddhism, but it isn't and wasn't. Those two entities went down different paths. What the hell does trading and road-making have anything to do with religion existing or not??
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6441
David's point was "can you imagine how many scientific discoveries would have been made?" if ancient civilisations didn't have Gods or deities.

My point was that the ancient civilisations made huge great leap forwards in all sorts of areas of cultural and civil development- even when they were hugely religious and theistic people. And you just reinforced me... all of the discoveries would have been made regardless of whether religion was there or not. So really you contradicted your first post and also opposed David's original post. Nice one!

What do you not understand about this simple rebuttal?

Last edited by Uzique (2008-08-17 15:02:07)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6471|so randum
listen to Uzique on this one.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
xBlackPantherx
Grow up, or die
+142|6313|California
"Essentially" we are a warlike species by nature and would have just found something else to murder, pillage and conquer over. If you're a man of science you would realize this integral element of human nature.

I'm an Atheist / Agnostic (to use Huxley's term), but I don't really think that the ancient civilisations and ancient world was hindered that much by religion. Religion was almost a positive thing to the majority of Greek society, and inspired some of the greatest works of literature and art ever- the true epics by poets such as Homer. Religion was merely a device for us to 'fill in the gaps' back in the days when our mathematic and scientific understanding was limited. If you want to look at a period of history where religion really stifled progress and purposefully hindered humanity- then look at the age of the Catholic Church. That's when the greed and corruption really became apparent.
Think about why we are warlike by habit.

Ancient civilizations were entirely hindered upon by religion. If you don't think so you haven't looked very much into history or literature on the topic of religion.

You ARE right about the fact that religion and mythology was used to fill the gaps of what they didn't know; but as science filled those gaps and religion was formed into a 100% corrupted state of being manipulating the minds of the public to keep their control of the masses within their hands. So, in other words, you are right about the corruption and greed. Ever since major religions such as Christianity became remotely popular, the church has been corrupted, was only used to control the masses, tore hard-earned money away from the masses, and the list goes on.


David.P wrote:

I'm not an Atheist, I'm an Asshole. There is no such thing as a utopia. I was just suggesting if humans used Logic early on and not Ego and self validation to guide their actions, the world would be alot better off. I mean come on, Which one of us hasn't been sitting in the back of the church wondering what exactly the priest was going on about? All these hypocrisies and contradictions are just A-ok because it's god's will or other shit.

Ahwell back to pissing off christians for me.
The asshole part is obvious. Learn respect, etiquette and manners.

I never said their was, I just said your views are approaching those of a Utopian and you definitely need to look up the tearn Atheistic Utopian to get what I mean because you obviously don't understand.


Uzique wrote:

David's point was "can you imagine how many scientific discoveries would have been made?" if ancient civilisations didn't have Gods or deities.

My point was that the ancient civilisations made huge great leap forwards in all sorts of areas of cultural and civil development- even when they were hugely religious and theistic people. And you just reinforced me... all of the discoveries would have been made regardless of whether religion was there or not. So really you contradicted your first post and also opposed David's original post. Nice one!

What do you not understand about this simple rebuttal?
That's my misunderstanding. I thought you were trying to convey the point that those discoveries were made influentially by religion or that just because those countries/city-states were religious that those discoveries were made.

Last edited by xBlackPantherx (2008-08-17 15:12:23)

jord
Member
+2,382|6649|The North, beyond the wall.

Uzique wrote:

David's point was "can you imagine how many scientific discoveries would have been made?" if ancient civilisations didn't have Gods or deities.

My point was that the ancient civilisations made huge great leap forwards in all sorts of areas of cultural and civil development- even when they were hugely religious and theistic people. And you just reinforced me... all of the discoveries would have been made regardless of whether religion was there or not. So really you contradicted your first post and also opposed David's original post. Nice one!

What do you not understand about this simple rebuttal?
A lot of advances in Medicine and biology were delayed 800 or more years because of Religion. If the Church didn't say "No that's bad, people are perfect, end of. Don't go looking inside that body you there!". Well me might well have discovered cures for much more by now. 800 years delayed... What a waste.
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6508|Long Island, New York

jord wrote:

Uzique wrote:

David's point was "can you imagine how many scientific discoveries would have been made?" if ancient civilisations didn't have Gods or deities.

My point was that the ancient civilisations made huge great leap forwards in all sorts of areas of cultural and civil development- even when they were hugely religious and theistic people. And you just reinforced me... all of the discoveries would have been made regardless of whether religion was there or not. So really you contradicted your first post and also opposed David's original post. Nice one!

What do you not understand about this simple rebuttal?
A lot of advances in Medicine and biology were delayed 800 or more years because of Religion. If the Church didn't say "No that's bad, people are perfect, end of. Don't go looking inside that body you there!". Well me might well have discovered cures for much more by now. 800 years delayed... What a waste.
They still ARE delaying medicine. See: Stem Cell research.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6193|Escea

jord wrote:

Uzique wrote:

David's point was "can you imagine how many scientific discoveries would have been made?" if ancient civilisations didn't have Gods or deities.

My point was that the ancient civilisations made huge great leap forwards in all sorts of areas of cultural and civil development- even when they were hugely religious and theistic people. And you just reinforced me... all of the discoveries would have been made regardless of whether religion was there or not. So really you contradicted your first post and also opposed David's original post. Nice one!

What do you not understand about this simple rebuttal?
A lot of advances in Medicine and biology were delayed 800 or more years because of Religion. If the Church didn't say "No that's bad, people are perfect, end of. Don't go looking inside that body you there!". Well me might well have discovered cures for much more by now. 800 years delayed... What a waste.
You know that's exactly what I was thinking
xBlackPantherx
Grow up, or die
+142|6313|California

jord wrote:

Uzique wrote:

David's point was "can you imagine how many scientific discoveries would have been made?" if ancient civilisations didn't have Gods or deities.

My point was that the ancient civilisations made huge great leap forwards in all sorts of areas of cultural and civil development- even when they were hugely religious and theistic people. And you just reinforced me... all of the discoveries would have been made regardless of whether religion was there or not. So really you contradicted your first post and also opposed David's original post. Nice one!

What do you not understand about this simple rebuttal?
A lot of advances in Medicine and biology were delayed 800 or more years because of Religion. If the Church didn't say "No that's bad, people are perfect, end of. Don't go looking inside that body you there!". Well me might well have discovered cures for much more by now. 800 years delayed... What a waste.
Very true.

Poseidon wrote:

They still ARE delaying medicine. See: Stem Cell research.
This point is utterly un-desputable by anyone saying religion doesn't/didn't cause this effect.
David.P
Banned
+649|6244

jord wrote:

A lot of advances in Medicine and biology were delayed 800 or more years because of Religion. If the Church didn't say "No that's bad, people are perfect, end of. Don't go looking inside that body you there!". Well me might well have discovered cures for much more by now. 800 years delayed... What a waste.
Look at surgery. If it wasn't for Abraham and his BS we would have alot more knowledge alot sooner about how the insides of the human body work. I mean fuck it was perfectly ok to kill a man for God/Law/Authority. But not take an already dead body and peak inside it.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6441

jord wrote:

Uzique wrote:

David's point was "can you imagine how many scientific discoveries would have been made?" if ancient civilisations didn't have Gods or deities.

My point was that the ancient civilisations made huge great leap forwards in all sorts of areas of cultural and civil development- even when they were hugely religious and theistic people. And you just reinforced me... all of the discoveries would have been made regardless of whether religion was there or not. So really you contradicted your first post and also opposed David's original post. Nice one!

What do you not understand about this simple rebuttal?
A lot of advances in Medicine and biology were delayed 800 or more years because of Religion. If the Church didn't say "No that's bad, people are perfect, end of. Don't go looking inside that body you there!". Well me might well have discovered cures for much more by now. 800 years delayed... What a waste.
We're discussing ancient civilisations though, no?

'The Church' wasn't around then. And I did direct people in my very first post towards the Middle-Ages and the time of the Catholic Church if they really wanted to see examples of religious hinderance and backwards development (which your post is a very good example of). I just thought this topic was discussing the idea of atheism and 'logic' (which did actually develop from a philosophical perspective in ancient civilisations... sigh) becoming prevalent in ancient civilisations instead of religion.

And to whomever said I should read some more classical literature... I think I've read enough, thanks Many of the greatest pieces of work from a literal-criticism perspective were written by poets and writers with faith. All of the epic tales of romance and love involve religious elements and imagery- and are all hugely effective and wonderful things to read. As you later understood my point about religion in ancient civilisation operating alongside scientific progress separately, I don't think we majorly disagree on anything now .

Religious fanatics and bigots in America are causing problems for stem-cell research, yes indeed... but that's your problem. 21st century America-- do people bother reading the original post?

David.P wrote:

Look at surgery. If it wasn't for Abraham and his BS we would have alot more knowledge alot sooner about how the insides of the human body work. I mean fuck it was perfectly ok to kill a man for God/Law/Authority. But not take an already dead body and peak inside it.
But the Ancient Greeks had their own hospitals and were making great advances in primitive and early forms of 'biology', and wasn't Abraham a fictitious character from Genesis? Anyway, even if he was real both civilisations were developing in a similar time-frame (2000BC-10BC'ish)- so you can't entirely argue that religion stifled 'human' progress.

Last edited by Uzique (2008-08-17 15:23:01)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
xBlackPantherx
Grow up, or die
+142|6313|California

Uzique wrote:

We're discussing ancient civilisations though, no?

'The Church' wasn't around then.
When does an ancient civilization become ancient? 800 years ago is ancient enough for me.

Religion and churches were around 800 years ago. Maybe "THE Church" wasn't but that's debatable.

Uzique wrote:

And to whomever said I should read some more classical literature... I think I've read enough, thanks Many of the greatest pieces of work from a literal-criticism perspective were written by poets and writers with faith. All of the epic tales of romance and love involve religious elements and imagery- and are all hugely effective and wonderful things to read. As you later understood my point about religion in ancient civilisation operating alongside scientific progress separately
Not necessarily classical, just historical and religious. But as you said, I later got what you were saying.

Uzique wrote:

I don't think we majorly disagree on anything now
I'll agree on that At least not on this topic anyways hahaha.

Uzique wrote:

Religious fanatics and bigots in America are causing problems for stem-cell research, yes indeed... but that's your problem. 21st century America-- do people bother reading the original post?
Yes. The huge majority of the disputers on stem-cell research are right-wing republican Christians.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6441

xBlackPantherx wrote:

Uzique wrote:

We're discussing ancient civilisations though, no?

'The Church' wasn't around then.
When does an ancient civilization become ancient? 800 years ago is ancient enough for me.

Religion and churches were around 800 years ago. Maybe "THE Church" wasn't but that's debatable.
Churches are the places of worship of Christianity. Christianity is the new kid on the block when it comes to religions... certainly not ancient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_history

Article wrote:

"Ancient history is the study of the written past[1] from the beginning of recorded human history until the Early Middle Ages"
I myself consider 'ancient civilisations' to be synonymous with 'classical civilisation'- e.g. Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Persian/Muslim, Chinese... and later people such as the Vikings and all the other European and Asian groups that rose to power and cultural dominance. I guess from an American perspective 800 years is 'ancient', seeing as how young the American culture and country is, haha!

Perhaps I'm getting too hung up on David's original post and the time-frames he mentioned; perhaps his real intention of this thread was to discuss how religion throughout the history of mankind had delayed scientific advancement. If so then I apologize for my pedanticism- but otherwise all my posts and points have been quite relevant .

Last edited by Uzique (2008-08-17 15:33:18)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6728|Argentina

.Sup wrote:

Oh no, its David.P. Hide!!! So whats the topic here?
I thought he was posting a rant about how Valve fucked TF2.
David.P
Banned
+649|6244

sergeriver wrote:

.Sup wrote:

Oh no, its David.P. Hide!!! So whats the topic here?
I thought he was posting a rant about how Valve fucked TF2.
Valve completely screwed TF2!
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6508|Long Island, New York

xBlackPantherx wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Religious fanatics and bigots in America are causing problems for stem-cell research, yes indeed... but that's your problem. 21st century America-- do people bother reading the original post?
Yes. The huge majority of the disputers on stem-cell research are right-wing republican Christians.
Unfortunately, yeah.

What I never understood was how right wing christians were such supporters of war and "killin dem mooslems", but when it came to abortions/stem cell research, they're completely against it.

I don't think "pro-life" is a very appropriate term for right wing Christians who are also warhawks.
.Sup
be nice
+2,646|6424|The Twilight Zone

sergeriver wrote:

.Sup wrote:

Oh no, its David.P. Hide!!! So whats the topic here?
I thought he was posting a rant about how Valve fucked TF2.
Didn't he? Honestly I didn't even read the whole post. I'll remove myself from here since I don't want to derail David's thread.

David.P wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

.Sup wrote:

Oh no, its David.P. Hide!!! So whats the topic here?
I thought he was posting a rant about how Valve fucked TF2.
Valve completely screwed TF2!
lol David you emo.

Last edited by .Sup (2008-08-17 15:32:51)

https://www.shrani.si/f/3H/7h/45GTw71U/untitled-1.png
David.P
Banned
+649|6244
All according to plan.

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