If all the ancient people's of the world threw off the shackles of religion and morality. I mean if just one brave 'soul' said no to Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad, krishna, or any other 'prophet' or priest. And said "Fuck off!" or" No more of your false gods!" Or if the Masses one day overthrew the power hungry, the Authoritarian, the Evil, the Corrupt, and realized about these so called holymen. What the Gods' want is not in our best interest but in theirs. And proceeded to kill them all. Can you imagine if this one thought of Logic spread like wildfire throughout the ancient world? Carried by trade winds and sea currents, from one civilization to another. Doesn't matter where it started as long as it spread to all the great city states and empires, and caused a massive revolt against all authority and law. Yeeeeeeaah, can you imagine all the scientific discoveries that could've already been made? Or how advanced the world would be right now? I sure can.
No, because all their countries would be a lot stronger. They could have formed a supermegapower by now.
In lamest terms, if religion didn't exist. I do agree with you David, to a degree, but you're approaching the status of an Atheistic Utopian. Don't get me wrong, I am atheist too, but it's that Utopian part.
EDIT: Essentially, at least 90% of all major/semi-major wars wouldn't have happened if religion didn't exist.
EDIT: Essentially, at least 90% of all major/semi-major wars wouldn't have happened if religion didn't exist.
Last edited by xBlackPantherx (2008-08-17 14:46:37)
What?
Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and Persians (among the other great civilisations) didn't make great breakthroughs in the sciences, maths, philosophy and other areas of human/civil advancement? We don't learn most of the mathematic theorems propounded by Greeks such as Pythagoras? Doctors and medical staff don't take the Hippocratic Oath? Most of Western modern philosophy and society isn't based on philosophy first put forward by the likes of Plato, Socrates and Aristotle? All of Europe's main-roads, trade routes and early society wasn't developed by the Romans?
Oh, ok.
Guess having all those deities and Gods really did set us back a few thousand years.
I'm an Atheist / Agnostic (to use Huxley's term), but I don't really think that the ancient civilisations and ancient world was hindered that much by religion. Religion was almost a positive thing to the majority of Greek society, and inspired some of the greatest works of literature and art ever- the true epics by poets such as Homer. Religion was merely a device for us to 'fill in the gaps' back in the days when our mathematic and scientific understanding was limited. If you want to look at a period of history where religion really stifled progress and purposefully hindered humanity- then look at the age of the Catholic Church. That's when the greed and corruption really became apparent.
Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and Persians (among the other great civilisations) didn't make great breakthroughs in the sciences, maths, philosophy and other areas of human/civil advancement? We don't learn most of the mathematic theorems propounded by Greeks such as Pythagoras? Doctors and medical staff don't take the Hippocratic Oath? Most of Western modern philosophy and society isn't based on philosophy first put forward by the likes of Plato, Socrates and Aristotle? All of Europe's main-roads, trade routes and early society wasn't developed by the Romans?
Oh, ok.
Guess having all those deities and Gods really did set us back a few thousand years.
"Essentially" we are a warlike species by nature and would have just found something else to murder, pillage and conquer over. If you're a man of science you would realize this integral element of human nature.xBlackPantherx wrote:
Essentially, at least 90% of all major/semi-major wars wouldn't have happened if religion didn't exist.
I'm an Atheist / Agnostic (to use Huxley's term), but I don't really think that the ancient civilisations and ancient world was hindered that much by religion. Religion was almost a positive thing to the majority of Greek society, and inspired some of the greatest works of literature and art ever- the true epics by poets such as Homer. Religion was merely a device for us to 'fill in the gaps' back in the days when our mathematic and scientific understanding was limited. If you want to look at a period of history where religion really stifled progress and purposefully hindered humanity- then look at the age of the Catholic Church. That's when the greed and corruption really became apparent.
Last edited by Uzique (2008-08-17 14:59:05)
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
The point i was trying to make.^^Uzique wrote:
Oh, ok.
Guess having all those deities and Gods really did set us back a few thousand years.
I'm not an Atheist, I'm an Asshole. There is no such thing as a utopia. I was just suggesting if humans used Logic early on and not Ego and self validation to guide their actions, the world would be alot better off. I mean come on, Which one of us hasn't been sitting in the back of the church wondering what exactly the priest was going on about? All these hypocrisies and contradictions are just A-ok because it's god's will or other shit.xBlackPantherx wrote:
In lamest terms, if religion didn't exist. I do agree with you David, to a degree, but you're approaching the status of an Atheistic Utopian. Don't get me wrong, I am atheist too, but it's that Utopian part.
EDIT: Essentially, at least 90% of all major/semi-major wars wouldn't have happened if religion didn't exist.
Ahwell back to pissing off christians for me.
I guess I'll add '/sarcasm' tags next time around.David.P wrote:
The point i was trying to make.^^Uzique wrote:
Oh, ok.
Guess having all those deities and Gods really did set us back a few thousand years.
Read the first paragraph of mine again and don't be so fucking stupid.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
doesn't take one much brainpower to figure that outDavid.P wrote:
I'm not an Atheist, I'm an Asshole.
Don't think about saying that those discoveries wouldn't have been made without religion. Yes they did make all those discoveries but many weren't exactly influenced by greek mythology. Philosophy doesn't have anything to do with religion. It should have been one of the same, such as Buddhism, but it isn't and wasn't. Those two entities went down different paths. What the hell does trading and road-making have anything to do with religion existing or not??Uzique wrote:
What?
Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and Persians (among the other great civilisations) didn't make great breakthroughs in the sciences, maths, philosophy and other areas of human/civil advancement? We don't learn most of the mathematic theorems propounded by Greeks such as Pythagoras? Doctors and medical staff don't take the Hippocratic Oath? Most of Western modern philosophy and society isn't based on philosophy first put forward by the likes of Plato, Socrates and Aristotle? All of Europe's main-roads, trade routes and early society wasn't developed by the Romans?
Oh, ok.
Guess having all those deities and Gods really did set us back a few thousand years.
David's point was "can you imagine how many scientific discoveries would have been made?" if ancient civilisations didn't have Gods or deities.
My point was that the ancient civilisations made huge great leap forwards in all sorts of areas of cultural and civil development- even when they were hugely religious and theistic people. And you just reinforced me... all of the discoveries would have been made regardless of whether religion was there or not. So really you contradicted your first post and also opposed David's original post. Nice one!
What do you not understand about this simple rebuttal?
My point was that the ancient civilisations made huge great leap forwards in all sorts of areas of cultural and civil development- even when they were hugely religious and theistic people. And you just reinforced me... all of the discoveries would have been made regardless of whether religion was there or not. So really you contradicted your first post and also opposed David's original post. Nice one!
What do you not understand about this simple rebuttal?
Last edited by Uzique (2008-08-17 15:02:07)
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
listen to Uzique on this one.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Think about why we are warlike by habit."Essentially" we are a warlike species by nature and would have just found something else to murder, pillage and conquer over. If you're a man of science you would realize this integral element of human nature.
I'm an Atheist / Agnostic (to use Huxley's term), but I don't really think that the ancient civilisations and ancient world was hindered that much by religion. Religion was almost a positive thing to the majority of Greek society, and inspired some of the greatest works of literature and art ever- the true epics by poets such as Homer. Religion was merely a device for us to 'fill in the gaps' back in the days when our mathematic and scientific understanding was limited. If you want to look at a period of history where religion really stifled progress and purposefully hindered humanity- then look at the age of the Catholic Church. That's when the greed and corruption really became apparent.
Ancient civilizations were entirely hindered upon by religion. If you don't think so you haven't looked very much into history or literature on the topic of religion.
You ARE right about the fact that religion and mythology was used to fill the gaps of what they didn't know; but as science filled those gaps and religion was formed into a 100% corrupted state of being manipulating the minds of the public to keep their control of the masses within their hands. So, in other words, you are right about the corruption and greed. Ever since major religions such as Christianity became remotely popular, the church has been corrupted, was only used to control the masses, tore hard-earned money away from the masses, and the list goes on.
The asshole part is obvious. Learn respect, etiquette and manners.David.P wrote:
I'm not an Atheist, I'm an Asshole. There is no such thing as a utopia. I was just suggesting if humans used Logic early on and not Ego and self validation to guide their actions, the world would be alot better off. I mean come on, Which one of us hasn't been sitting in the back of the church wondering what exactly the priest was going on about? All these hypocrisies and contradictions are just A-ok because it's god's will or other shit.
Ahwell back to pissing off christians for me.
I never said their was, I just said your views are approaching those of a Utopian and you definitely need to look up the tearn Atheistic Utopian to get what I mean because you obviously don't understand.
That's my misunderstanding. I thought you were trying to convey the point that those discoveries were made influentially by religion or that just because those countries/city-states were religious that those discoveries were made.Uzique wrote:
David's point was "can you imagine how many scientific discoveries would have been made?" if ancient civilisations didn't have Gods or deities.
My point was that the ancient civilisations made huge great leap forwards in all sorts of areas of cultural and civil development- even when they were hugely religious and theistic people. And you just reinforced me... all of the discoveries would have been made regardless of whether religion was there or not. So really you contradicted your first post and also opposed David's original post. Nice one!
What do you not understand about this simple rebuttal?
Last edited by xBlackPantherx (2008-08-17 15:12:23)
A lot of advances in Medicine and biology were delayed 800 or more years because of Religion. If the Church didn't say "No that's bad, people are perfect, end of. Don't go looking inside that body you there!". Well me might well have discovered cures for much more by now. 800 years delayed... What a waste.Uzique wrote:
David's point was "can you imagine how many scientific discoveries would have been made?" if ancient civilisations didn't have Gods or deities.
My point was that the ancient civilisations made huge great leap forwards in all sorts of areas of cultural and civil development- even when they were hugely religious and theistic people. And you just reinforced me... all of the discoveries would have been made regardless of whether religion was there or not. So really you contradicted your first post and also opposed David's original post. Nice one!
What do you not understand about this simple rebuttal?
They still ARE delaying medicine. See: Stem Cell research.jord wrote:
A lot of advances in Medicine and biology were delayed 800 or more years because of Religion. If the Church didn't say "No that's bad, people are perfect, end of. Don't go looking inside that body you there!". Well me might well have discovered cures for much more by now. 800 years delayed... What a waste.Uzique wrote:
David's point was "can you imagine how many scientific discoveries would have been made?" if ancient civilisations didn't have Gods or deities.
My point was that the ancient civilisations made huge great leap forwards in all sorts of areas of cultural and civil development- even when they were hugely religious and theistic people. And you just reinforced me... all of the discoveries would have been made regardless of whether religion was there or not. So really you contradicted your first post and also opposed David's original post. Nice one!
What do you not understand about this simple rebuttal?
You know that's exactly what I was thinkingjord wrote:
A lot of advances in Medicine and biology were delayed 800 or more years because of Religion. If the Church didn't say "No that's bad, people are perfect, end of. Don't go looking inside that body you there!". Well me might well have discovered cures for much more by now. 800 years delayed... What a waste.Uzique wrote:
David's point was "can you imagine how many scientific discoveries would have been made?" if ancient civilisations didn't have Gods or deities.
My point was that the ancient civilisations made huge great leap forwards in all sorts of areas of cultural and civil development- even when they were hugely religious and theistic people. And you just reinforced me... all of the discoveries would have been made regardless of whether religion was there or not. So really you contradicted your first post and also opposed David's original post. Nice one!
What do you not understand about this simple rebuttal?
Very true.jord wrote:
A lot of advances in Medicine and biology were delayed 800 or more years because of Religion. If the Church didn't say "No that's bad, people are perfect, end of. Don't go looking inside that body you there!". Well me might well have discovered cures for much more by now. 800 years delayed... What a waste.Uzique wrote:
David's point was "can you imagine how many scientific discoveries would have been made?" if ancient civilisations didn't have Gods or deities.
My point was that the ancient civilisations made huge great leap forwards in all sorts of areas of cultural and civil development- even when they were hugely religious and theistic people. And you just reinforced me... all of the discoveries would have been made regardless of whether religion was there or not. So really you contradicted your first post and also opposed David's original post. Nice one!
What do you not understand about this simple rebuttal?
This point is utterly un-desputable by anyone saying religion doesn't/didn't cause this effect.Poseidon wrote:
They still ARE delaying medicine. See: Stem Cell research.
Look at surgery. If it wasn't for Abraham and his BS we would have alot more knowledge alot sooner about how the insides of the human body work. I mean fuck it was perfectly ok to kill a man for God/Law/Authority. But not take an already dead body and peak inside it.jord wrote:
A lot of advances in Medicine and biology were delayed 800 or more years because of Religion. If the Church didn't say "No that's bad, people are perfect, end of. Don't go looking inside that body you there!". Well me might well have discovered cures for much more by now. 800 years delayed... What a waste.
We're discussing ancient civilisations though, no?jord wrote:
A lot of advances in Medicine and biology were delayed 800 or more years because of Religion. If the Church didn't say "No that's bad, people are perfect, end of. Don't go looking inside that body you there!". Well me might well have discovered cures for much more by now. 800 years delayed... What a waste.Uzique wrote:
David's point was "can you imagine how many scientific discoveries would have been made?" if ancient civilisations didn't have Gods or deities.
My point was that the ancient civilisations made huge great leap forwards in all sorts of areas of cultural and civil development- even when they were hugely religious and theistic people. And you just reinforced me... all of the discoveries would have been made regardless of whether religion was there or not. So really you contradicted your first post and also opposed David's original post. Nice one!
What do you not understand about this simple rebuttal?
'The Church' wasn't around then. And I did direct people in my very first post towards the Middle-Ages and the time of the Catholic Church if they really wanted to see examples of religious hinderance and backwards development (which your post is a very good example of). I just thought this topic was discussing the idea of atheism and 'logic' (which did actually develop from a philosophical perspective in ancient civilisations... sigh) becoming prevalent in ancient civilisations instead of religion.
And to whomever said I should read some more classical literature... I think I've read enough, thanks Many of the greatest pieces of work from a literal-criticism perspective were written by poets and writers with faith. All of the epic tales of romance and love involve religious elements and imagery- and are all hugely effective and wonderful things to read. As you later understood my point about religion in ancient civilisation operating alongside scientific progress separately, I don't think we majorly disagree on anything now .
Religious fanatics and bigots in America are causing problems for stem-cell research, yes indeed... but that's your problem. 21st century America-- do people bother reading the original post?
But the Ancient Greeks had their own hospitals and were making great advances in primitive and early forms of 'biology', and wasn't Abraham a fictitious character from Genesis? Anyway, even if he was real both civilisations were developing in a similar time-frame (2000BC-10BC'ish)- so you can't entirely argue that religion stifled 'human' progress.David.P wrote:
Look at surgery. If it wasn't for Abraham and his BS we would have alot more knowledge alot sooner about how the insides of the human body work. I mean fuck it was perfectly ok to kill a man for God/Law/Authority. But not take an already dead body and peak inside it.
Last edited by Uzique (2008-08-17 15:23:01)
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
When does an ancient civilization become ancient? 800 years ago is ancient enough for me.Uzique wrote:
We're discussing ancient civilisations though, no?
'The Church' wasn't around then.
Religion and churches were around 800 years ago. Maybe "THE Church" wasn't but that's debatable.
Not necessarily classical, just historical and religious. But as you said, I later got what you were saying.Uzique wrote:
And to whomever said I should read some more classical literature... I think I've read enough, thanks Many of the greatest pieces of work from a literal-criticism perspective were written by poets and writers with faith. All of the epic tales of romance and love involve religious elements and imagery- and are all hugely effective and wonderful things to read. As you later understood my point about religion in ancient civilisation operating alongside scientific progress separately
I'll agree on that At least not on this topic anyways hahaha.Uzique wrote:
I don't think we majorly disagree on anything now
Yes. The huge majority of the disputers on stem-cell research are right-wing republican Christians.Uzique wrote:
Religious fanatics and bigots in America are causing problems for stem-cell research, yes indeed... but that's your problem. 21st century America-- do people bother reading the original post?
Churches are the places of worship of Christianity. Christianity is the new kid on the block when it comes to religions... certainly not ancient.xBlackPantherx wrote:
When does an ancient civilization become ancient? 800 years ago is ancient enough for me.Uzique wrote:
We're discussing ancient civilisations though, no?
'The Church' wasn't around then.
Religion and churches were around 800 years ago. Maybe "THE Church" wasn't but that's debatable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_history
I myself consider 'ancient civilisations' to be synonymous with 'classical civilisation'- e.g. Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Persian/Muslim, Chinese... and later people such as the Vikings and all the other European and Asian groups that rose to power and cultural dominance. I guess from an American perspective 800 years is 'ancient', seeing as how young the American culture and country is, haha!Article wrote:
"Ancient history is the study of the written past[1] from the beginning of recorded human history until the Early Middle Ages"
Perhaps I'm getting too hung up on David's original post and the time-frames he mentioned; perhaps his real intention of this thread was to discuss how religion throughout the history of mankind had delayed scientific advancement. If so then I apologize for my pedanticism- but otherwise all my posts and points have been quite relevant .
Last edited by Uzique (2008-08-17 15:33:18)
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
I thought he was posting a rant about how Valve fucked TF2..Sup wrote:
Oh no, its David.P. Hide!!! So whats the topic here?
Valve completely screwed TF2!sergeriver wrote:
I thought he was posting a rant about how Valve fucked TF2..Sup wrote:
Oh no, its David.P. Hide!!! So whats the topic here?
Unfortunately, yeah.xBlackPantherx wrote:
Yes. The huge majority of the disputers on stem-cell research are right-wing republican Christians.Uzique wrote:
Religious fanatics and bigots in America are causing problems for stem-cell research, yes indeed... but that's your problem. 21st century America-- do people bother reading the original post?
What I never understood was how right wing christians were such supporters of war and "killin dem mooslems", but when it came to abortions/stem cell research, they're completely against it.
I don't think "pro-life" is a very appropriate term for right wing Christians who are also warhawks.
Didn't he? Honestly I didn't even read the whole post. I'll remove myself from here since I don't want to derail David's thread.sergeriver wrote:
I thought he was posting a rant about how Valve fucked TF2..Sup wrote:
Oh no, its David.P. Hide!!! So whats the topic here?
lol David you emo.David.P wrote:
Valve completely screwed TF2!sergeriver wrote:
I thought he was posting a rant about how Valve fucked TF2..Sup wrote:
Oh no, its David.P. Hide!!! So whats the topic here?
Last edited by .Sup (2008-08-17 15:32:51)
All according to plan.