imortal
Member
+240|6635|Austin, TX


Okay, I bet you know where I am going with this, about how evil the Russians (or Georgians) are and everything.  Well, you would be wrong.

Here is a longer verison.  The shorter one only has the shooting, the second one has the aftermath.



Look at what they are wearing.  Civilian Clothing, no identifiable marking on their clothes at all.

Back in the thread "The Press is a Threat to Israeli Tanks", I postulated that it was very dangerous for press to enter combat areas, and that special protection may not be possible, depending on the situation for the troops.  I am not attacking the troops on this one, regardless of their nationality.  I am commenting on the perceived "inviolate" nature of the press being able to roam freely.  It looks bad when the press is shot at and killed, but that is what happens when you play with the guys who play by different rules.
Roc18
`
+655|5761|PROLLLY PROLLLY PROLLLY
Its a warzone, if they are willing to risk thier lives to film tanks then that is thier problem.
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|6642|Colorado
Wonder how this headline would do in an actual news story...I mean you won't even investigate to see who did it.

Last edited by TrollmeaT (2008-08-16 19:37:45)

imortal
Member
+240|6635|Austin, TX

TrollmeaT wrote:

Wonder how this headline would do in an actual news story...I mean you won't even investigate to see who did it.
Looking at other sites, I believe it was Georgian troops, although the guy that first showed it to me said is was Russians.  I tried to keep people's minds open.  To be honest, it does not matter to the idea of my post which side was shooting at them.

And how do you mean by how the headline would do?  You mean honest?  Or does it lack punch?   How about "Someone shoots at Turkish Press?"
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6457|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)
Well their in a war zone. Shit happens. I was in a war zone and people shot at me....hmmmm.
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|6642|Colorado

imortal wrote:

TrollmeaT wrote:

Wonder how this headline would do in an actual news story...I mean you won't even investigate to see who did it.
Looking at other sites, I believe it was Georgian troops, although the guy that first showed it to me said is was Russians.  I tried to keep people's minds open.  To be honest, it does not matter to the idea of my post which side was shooting at them.

And how do you mean by how the headline would do?  You mean honest?  Or does it lack punch?   How about "Someone shoots at Turkish Press?"
Yes the last is great, the original title with (not sure) in it would never do for a reporter hehe.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6499|Global Command
Look at the bright side; somebody lived to make a story about it.
blademaster
I'm moving to Brazil
+2,075|6615

Roc18 wrote:

Its a warzone, if they are willing to risk thier lives to film tanks then that is thier problem.
good point wtf u expect you cant film when they are shooting its a cartoon the best bet is to gtfo
thraSK
Best ___ in Aus
+57|5952
I guess thats what they call a turkey shoot
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6571|132 and Bush

imortal wrote:

Look at what they are wearing.  Civilian Clothing, no identifiable marking on their clothes at all.
This makes it sound like it's ok to shoot civilians.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
imortal
Member
+240|6635|Austin, TX

Kmarion wrote:

imortal wrote:

Look at what they are wearing.  Civilian Clothing, no identifiable marking on their clothes at all.
This makes it sound like it's ok to shoot civilians.
You are correct.  The problem is that jounalists generally move in different directions than civilians.  Normal civilians head away from a conflict; they get as far from the shooting as they practically can.  Jounalists move toward the conflict, since that is where the story is.  Unfortunately, non-uniformed combatants (insurgants, terrorists, gurillas) also move toward a fight, and often (if not usually) use civilian means to get there. 

Abnormal behavior draws attention, and attention in a combat zone is usually a bad thing.  I am not saying it is okay to shoot civilians, but if their behavior was different enough from the civilian/refugee norm, it raises a soldier's suspicions.
dtacs
say that 2 my face fucker not online
+126|5804|Australia

thraSK wrote:

I guess thats what they call a turkey shoot
jesus christ GET OUT!
https://battlelog-cdn.battlefield.com/public/profile/bf3/kit-icon-recon.png?v=3173239
Havok
Nymphomaniac Treatment Specialist
+302|6645|Florida, United States

I don't think Russia is innocent of shooting at reporters either...

Needless to say, neither examples are excusable.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6260|Éire
FAO: Imortal

I must commend you on your consistency, many others on these boards chop and change their opinions to suit the argument. And while I fully believe that the press do a very important and necessary job in covering conflict in war time it is irresponsible not to make yourself clearly identifiable as member of the press.

However, as Kmarion pointed out, it is not okay to shoot civilians no matter what kind of conflict might be going on. Fair enough these guys were in the wrong place at the wrong time and with the wrong attire but they weren't launching any kind of attack on these soldiers (at least not as far as we could see on the video) and so one must ask the question why the hell did the soldiers open fire on them? Is it common practice in the military to open fire on random vehicles before identifying who is in them? Also, the shooting continued even when the vehicle was clearly making a retreat.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6260|Éire

Havok wrote:

I don't think Russia is innocent of shooting at reporters either...

Needless to say, neither examples are excusable.
I think that sniper was just giving her a little fright, it just grazed her. Pretty scary though.
imortal
Member
+240|6635|Austin, TX

Braddock wrote:

FAO: Imortal

I must commend you on your consistency, many others on these boards chop and change their opinions to suit the argument. And while I fully believe that the press do a very important and necessary job in covering conflict in war time it is irresponsible not to make yourself clearly identifiable as member of the press.

However, as Kmarion pointed out, it is not okay to shoot civilians no matter what kind of conflict might be going on. Fair enough these guys were in the wrong place at the wrong time and with the wrong attire but they weren't launching any kind of attack on these soldiers (at least not as far as we could see on the video) and so one must ask the question why the hell did the soldiers open fire on them? Is it common practice in the military to open fire on random vehicles before identifying who is in them? Also, the shooting continued even when the vehicle was clearly making a retreat.
Boy, I have to try to walk an ethical tightrope here.  First, I do not condone what the soldiers did.  I was commenting mainly on the journalist's tendancy to place themsleves in dangerous positions with a feeling of their own invulnerability.  Second, I do not know how these nations train their soldiers to react to threats like that, so I cannot comment if they were out of line with their training or not.  Third, I have said it before, from a distance a camera can resemble a weapon; most particually a rocket launcher.  That video started with the camera rolling, and them lowering the camera; we do not know what happened before.  From a distance, through the windshield on a sunny day, those soldiers might think that there was a team with an RPG or missile launcher in the car preparing to hit their position.  That being said, they may have continued to fire to prevent the escape of what they could think was an enemy trying to fall back from a busted attack.  I may not agree with what they did, but I can understand it.

Granted, that is speculation. At least the journalists made it through.  I can only imagine that there may have been a temptation by the unit, their command staff, or the politicians iinvolved to make the jounalists and the tape 'dissapear.' From the information I got, the camera crew was held on a base for 3 days.  No one was killed, although one had an eye injured.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6260|Éire

imortal wrote:

Braddock wrote:

FAO: Imortal

I must commend you on your consistency, many others on these boards chop and change their opinions to suit the argument. And while I fully believe that the press do a very important and necessary job in covering conflict in war time it is irresponsible not to make yourself clearly identifiable as member of the press.

However, as Kmarion pointed out, it is not okay to shoot civilians no matter what kind of conflict might be going on. Fair enough these guys were in the wrong place at the wrong time and with the wrong attire but they weren't launching any kind of attack on these soldiers (at least not as far as we could see on the video) and so one must ask the question why the hell did the soldiers open fire on them? Is it common practice in the military to open fire on random vehicles before identifying who is in them? Also, the shooting continued even when the vehicle was clearly making a retreat.
Boy, I have to try to walk an ethical tightrope here.  First, I do not condone what the soldiers did.  I was commenting mainly on the journalist's tendancy to place themsleves in dangerous positions with a feeling of their own invulnerability.  Second, I do not know how these nations train their soldiers to react to threats like that, so I cannot comment if they were out of line with their training or not.  Third, I have said it before, from a distance a camera can resemble a weapon; most particually a rocket launcher.  That video started with the camera rolling, and them lowering the camera; we do not know what happened before.  From a distance, through the windshield on a sunny day, those soldiers might think that there was a team with an RPG or missile launcher in the car preparing to hit their position.  That being said, they may have continued to fire to prevent the escape of what they could think was an enemy trying to fall back from a busted attack.  I may not agree with what they did, but I can understand it.

Granted, that is speculation. At least the journalists made it through.  I can only imagine that there may have been a temptation by the unit, their command staff, or the politicians iinvolved to make the jounalists and the tape 'dissapear.' From the information I got, the camera crew was held on a base for 3 days.  No one was killed, although one had an eye injured.
I can understand your argument about the camera looking like an RPG but ultimately that line of argument is just another way of absolving those in uniform when they incur the death of civilians. Though the argument may be entirely valid in certain instances it could be easily employed and corrupted in other circumstances...imagine the scenario, you're carrying out a ferocious attack on a village and you are caught on camera by a press team, your commanding officer could easily decide to tell you to take out the press team knowing full well you can just use the excuse of the camera looking like a rocket launcher.
^*AlphA*^
F*ckers
+3,135|6708|The Hague, Netherlands

Dutch cameramen was already killed there so no surprise.

warzones... fucked up place.
https://bf3s.com/sigs/36eac2cb6af70a43508fd8d1c93d3201f4e23435.png
imortal
Member
+240|6635|Austin, TX

Braddock wrote:

I can understand your argument about the camera looking like an RPG but ultimately that line of argument is just another way of absolving those in uniform when they incur the death of civilians. Though the argument may be entirely valid in certain instances it could be easily employed and corrupted in other circumstances...imagine the scenario, you're carrying out a ferocious attack on a village and you are caught on camera by a press team, your commanding officer could easily decide to tell you to take out the press team knowing full well you can just use the excuse of the camera looking like a rocket launcher.
You are right that it can look like an excuse.  It sorta depends on the morality of the nation and troops in question.  If you have the sort of troops who would be likely to create massacres or 'incidents' in the first place, then they would also be more likely do 'dissapear' a news crew.  In the end, I guess you have to have faith and trust in your military and your nation to have trained them right.

Scary, eh?
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6571|132 and Bush

Russian soldiers aren't exactly the most discipline force in the world.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
.Sup
be nice
+2,646|6423|The Twilight Zone

Kmarion wrote:

Russian soldiers aren't exactly the most discipline force in the world.
Some are very disciplined some aren't. Same with American forces.
https://www.shrani.si/f/3H/7h/45GTw71U/untitled-1.png
imortal
Member
+240|6635|Austin, TX

.Sup wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Russian soldiers aren't exactly the most discipline force in the world.
Some are very disciplined some aren't. Same with American forces.
No disagreement there, although we do try (in the US military) to keep discipline and good order.  Lapses in.... judgement are the expecption rather than the rule.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6260|Éire

imortal wrote:

Braddock wrote:

I can understand your argument about the camera looking like an RPG but ultimately that line of argument is just another way of absolving those in uniform when they incur the death of civilians. Though the argument may be entirely valid in certain instances it could be easily employed and corrupted in other circumstances...imagine the scenario, you're carrying out a ferocious attack on a village and you are caught on camera by a press team, your commanding officer could easily decide to tell you to take out the press team knowing full well you can just use the excuse of the camera looking like a rocket launcher.
You are right that it can look like an excuse.  It sorta depends on the morality of the nation and troops in question.  If you have the sort of troops who would be likely to create massacres or 'incidents' in the first place, then they would also be more likely do 'dissapear' a news crew.  In the end, I guess you have to have faith and trust in your military and your nation to have trained them right.

Scary, eh?
Scary is right!
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6571|132 and Bush

.Sup wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Russian soldiers aren't exactly the most discipline force in the world.
Some are very disciplined some aren't. Same with American forces.
Really? Maybe we should start passing out vodka before an incursion and encourage raping everything in sight.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
.Sup
be nice
+2,646|6423|The Twilight Zone

Kmarion wrote:

.Sup wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Russian soldiers aren't exactly the most discipline force in the world.
Some are very disciplined some aren't. Same with American forces.
Really? Maybe we should start passing out vodka before an incursion and encourage raping everything in sight.
You are more disciplined in avoiding raping women, Russians are more disciplined in not destroying civilian cars with M1.
https://www.shrani.si/f/3H/7h/45GTw71U/untitled-1.png

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