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2008-08-02 21:20:38
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6409|North Carolina

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

...Free will is only how things appear to be because we are not omniscient ourselves.

That is...  if there is a God and he's omniscient.  If there is no God, then we do have free will.
What about if there is a God and he isn't omniscient?

(btw, I neither believe in God (omniscient or otherwise) nor do I believe we have free will)
I suppose I should have phrased it differently...  If there is a God and he's both omnipotent and omniscient, then there is no free will.  If he is not omniscient but omnipotent, then we have free will but God can subvert it any time he wants to.  If he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent, then he's not really much of a god.

Theoretically, you could argue we don't have free will even without a god, but this is dependent on neurochemical determinism.  For all practical purposes, we do have free will even if God exists, but it's only in an illusory sense when factoring this determinism in.

Out of curiosity, is this determinism the reason why you don't believe in free will?
2008-08-02 21:21:20
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6689|United States of America

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

...Free will is only how things appear to be because we are not omniscient ourselves.

That is...  if there is a God and he's omniscient.  If there is no God, then we do have free will.
What about if there is a God and he isn't omniscient?

(btw, I neither believe in God (omniscient or otherwise) nor that we have free will)
Just to make sure, are you stating the opinion that a deity did not grant us free will (understandable) or that we, as humans, don't have free will in general? The latter claim is ludicrous, but no more so than your other claims about your "beliefs".
Dear God, this is a /facepalmthread if ever there was one
2008-08-02 21:24:41
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6770|Cambridge (UK)

DesertFox- wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

...Free will is only how things appear to be because we are not omniscient ourselves.

That is...  if there is a God and he's omniscient.  If there is no God, then we do have free will.
What about if there is a God and he isn't omniscient?

(btw, I neither believe in God (omniscient or otherwise) nor that we have free will)
Just to make sure, are you stating the opinion that a deity did not grant us free will (understandable) or that we, as humans, don't have free will in general? The latter claim is ludicrous, but no more so than your other claims about your "beliefs".
Dear God, this is a /facepalmthread if ever there was one
I am claiming that we humans have no free will, god-given or otherwise.

Turquoise wrote:

Out of curiosity, is this determinism the reason why you don't believe in free will?
Yes, I do believe the universe, and everything within it, is entirely deterministic (yep, even at the quantum level (we just haven't figured out the rules yet)).

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-08-02 21:28:03)

2008-08-02 21:27:29
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6689|United States of America

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:


What about if there is a God and he isn't omniscient?

(btw, I neither believe in God (omniscient or otherwise) nor that we have free will)
Just to make sure, are you stating the opinion that a deity did not grant us free will (understandable) or that we, as humans, don't have free will in general? The latter claim is ludicrous, but no more so than your other claims about your "beliefs".
Dear God, this is a /facepalmthread if ever there was one
I am claiming that we humans have no free will, god-given or otherwise.
Explain.  /grabs popcorn and watches condescendingly
2008-08-02 21:28:48
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6770|Cambridge (UK)

DesertFox- wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:


Just to make sure, are you stating the opinion that a deity did not grant us free will (understandable) or that we, as humans, don't have free will in general? The latter claim is ludicrous, but no more so than your other claims about your "beliefs".
Dear God, this is a /facepalmthread if ever there was one
I am claiming that we humans have no free will, god-given or otherwise.
Explain.  /grabs popcorn and watches condescendingly
See my edit/reply to Turq.
2008-08-02 21:33:48
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6409|North Carolina

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Out of curiosity, is this determinism the reason why you don't believe in free will?
Yes, I do believe the universe, and everything within it, is entirely deterministic (yep, even at the quantum level (we just haven't figured out the rules yet)).
True...  I suppose we all live according to free will being real because it's practical.  It would be rather boring to be too apathetic to make your own decisions as a result of focusing on this determinism.  Granted, I'm not saying that realizing said determinism dictates this behavior.  I guess it's just something I don't like to think too much about.  It's kind of.... empty feeling...
2008-08-02 21:38:31
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6689|United States of America
After doing some reading, we're not even talking about the same thing any more. Free will in the religious sense implies that a deity is not exerting control over us to do as it wishes, yet this current topic including determinism is more about the philosophical sense of the word. No wonder I was liek
2008-08-02 21:39:00
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6711|67.222.138.85

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Yes, I do believe the universe, and everything within it, is entirely deterministic (yep, even at the quantum level (we just haven't figured out the rules yet)).
Our understanding of the quantum level does not exclude complete determinism, only that we can never measure enough data to fully comprehend that determinism.
2008-08-02 21:46:41
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6409|North Carolina

DesertFox- wrote:

After doing some reading, we're not even talking about the same thing any more. Free will in the religious sense implies that a deity is not exerting control over us to do as it wishes, yet this current topic including determinism is more about the philosophical sense of the word. No wonder I was liek
But an omniscient being would not need to exert itself to control everything if it put everything in motion knowing all that would occur afterward.  In other words, if there is a God, it knew that say... WW2 would eventually occur.  Anything that occurs is effectively something that was planned for by God.
2008-08-02 21:47:09
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6770|Cambridge (UK)

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Yes, I do believe the universe, and everything within it, is entirely deterministic (yep, even at the quantum level (we just haven't figured out the rules yet)).
Our understanding of the quantum level does not exclude complete determinism, only that we can never measure enough data to fully comprehend that determinism.
I know. That's why I believe in determinism.

DesertFox- wrote:

After doing some reading, we're not even talking about the same thing any more. Free will in the religious sense implies that a deity is not exerting control over us to do as it wishes, yet this current topic including determinism is more about the philosophical sense of the word. No wonder I was liek
No, we're still talking about the same thing - either 'something' exerts control over us (a controlling God or a deterministic universe) or we have free will (a non-controlling God or a non-deterministic universe).

Turquoise wrote:

But an omniscient being would not need to exert itself to control everything if it put everything in motion knowing all that would occur afterward.  In other words, if there is a God, it knew that say... WW2 would eventually occur.  Anything that occurs is effectively something that was planned for by God.
And that's both a controlling God and a deterministic universe. God just exerted control at the beginning, rather than continuously.

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-08-02 21:50:41)

2008-08-02 21:49:41
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6711|67.222.138.85

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Yes, I do believe the universe, and everything within it, is entirely deterministic (yep, even at the quantum level (we just haven't figured out the rules yet)).
Our understanding of the quantum level does not exclude complete determinism, only that we can never measure enough data to fully comprehend that determinism.
I know. That's why I believe in determinism.
Well short of a GR level discovery, it's pretty irrelevant looking for the rules to a game we can't play right?
2008-08-02 21:53:00
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6770|Cambridge (UK)

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Our understanding of the quantum level does not exclude complete determinism, only that we can never measure enough data to fully comprehend that determinism.
I know. That's why I believe in determinism.
Well short of a GR level discovery, it's pretty irrelevant looking for the rules to a game we can't play right?
But we have to play the game. That's what the universe has determined.

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-08-02 22:02:10)

2008-08-02 21:53:59
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6711|67.222.138.85

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:


I know. That's why I believe in determinism.
Well short of a GR level discovery, it's pretty irrelevant looking for the rules to a game we can't play right?
But we have to play the game. That's the what the universe has determined.
Not the game of telling the future.
2008-08-02 21:56:35
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6409|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:


Well short of a GR level discovery, it's pretty irrelevant looking for the rules to a game we can't play right?
But we have to play the game. That's the what the universe has determined.
Not the game of telling the future.
But figuring out the deterministic minutiae of the universe is something that will be continuously explored by science in general.  I doubt we'll ever be able to literally predict the future, but we'll try our damnedest to get as close to it as we can...  lol
2008-08-02 21:59:47
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6770|Cambridge (UK)

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Well short of a GR level discovery, it's pretty irrelevant looking for the rules to a game we can't play right?
But we have to play the game. That's the what the universe has determined.
Not the game of telling the future.
Yes, that too. The whole of science, through understanding of the inner workings of the universe, is our attempting to predict the future.

Turquoise wrote:

I doubt we'll ever be able to literally predict the future
I don't.

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-08-02 22:01:23)

2008-08-02 22:01:59
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6711|67.222.138.85

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

But we have to play the game. That's the what the universe has determined.
Not the game of telling the future.
But figuring out the deterministic minutiae of the universe is something that will be continuously explored by science in general.  I doubt we'll ever be able to literally predict the future, but we'll try our damnedest to get as close to it as we can...  lol
Heh, yes we will try...

The fact remains however that unless there is an earth shattering discovery in the field (which is an extremely good possibility) we have delved into the field of determinism as far as we can go. It is just impossible for us to determine enough information with such a large, crude instrument as a photon.

edit: same to you scorpion
2008-08-02 22:05:43
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6770|Cambridge (UK)

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:


Not the game of telling the future.
But figuring out the deterministic minutiae of the universe is something that will be continuously explored by science in general.  I doubt we'll ever be able to literally predict the future, but we'll try our damnedest to get as close to it as we can...  lol
Heh, yes we will try...

The fact remains however that unless there is an earth shattering discovery in the field (which is an extremely good possibility) we have delved into the field of determinism as far as we can go. It is just impossible for us to determine enough information with such a large, crude instrument as a photon.

edit: same to you scorpion
Yeah, but we don't use photons much any more - long gone is the time when we could work out what the universe is doing just by looking at it with our eyes.

We 'listen' or 'taste' now more than we 'look'.
2008-08-02 22:16:37
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6679|Canberra, AUS

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Yes, I do believe the universe, and everything within it, is entirely deterministic (yep, even at the quantum level (we just haven't figured out the rules yet)).
Our understanding of the quantum level does not exclude complete determinism, only that we can never measure enough data to fully comprehend that determinism.
Hidden variables have been basically disproved. The remaining viable interpretations of quantum mechanics all conclude that at a certain level, determinism breaks down.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2008-08-02 22:21:09
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6770|Cambridge (UK)

Spark wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Yes, I do believe the universe, and everything within it, is entirely deterministic (yep, even at the quantum level (we just haven't figured out the rules yet)).
Our understanding of the quantum level does not exclude complete determinism, only that we can never measure enough data to fully comprehend that determinism.
Hidden variables have been basically disproved. The remaining viable interpretations of quantum mechanics all conclude that at a certain level, determinism breaks down.
linky?
2008-08-02 22:29:46
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6711|67.222.138.85

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


But figuring out the deterministic minutiae of the universe is something that will be continuously explored by science in general.  I doubt we'll ever be able to literally predict the future, but we'll try our damnedest to get as close to it as we can...  lol
Heh, yes we will try...

The fact remains however that unless there is an earth shattering discovery in the field (which is an extremely good possibility) we have delved into the field of determinism as far as we can go. It is just impossible for us to determine enough information with such a large, crude instrument as a photon.

edit: same to you scorpion
Yeah, but we don't use photons much any more - long gone is the time when we could work out what the universe is doing just by looking at it with our eyes.

We 'listen' or 'taste' now more than we 'look'.
That was just an example, the fundamental ideas are still very much intact. Our instruments get smaller, we delve deeper, we see how crude our instruments are, rinse repeat.

For the record, I don't believe in the God particle.

Spark wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Yes, I do believe the universe, and everything within it, is entirely deterministic (yep, even at the quantum level (we just haven't figured out the rules yet)).
Our understanding of the quantum level does not exclude complete determinism, only that we can never measure enough data to fully comprehend that determinism.
Hidden variables have been basically disproved. The remaining viable interpretations of quantum mechanics all conclude that at a certain level, determinism breaks down.
I'm not talking about hidden variables. I'm talking the whole cannot know position and velocity at the same time thing.
2008-08-02 22:31:16
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6694|Tampa Bay Florida
damn my head hurts

pretty deep stuff this is
2008-08-02 23:09:03
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6770|Cambridge (UK)

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I'm talking the whole cannot know position and velocity at the same time thing.
I don't buy into the idea that we'll never be able to solve that problem.

If I know the rules by which everything in the universe operates. And I know that the universe is deterministic. Then I can first measure the velocity. Then later measure the position. And work everything else out from there.
2008-08-02 23:15:37
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6711|67.222.138.85

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I'm talking the whole cannot know position and velocity at the same time thing.
I don't buy into the idea that we'll never be able to solve that problem.

If I know the rules by which everything in the universe operates. And I know that the universe is deterministic. Then I can first measure the velocity. Then later measure the position. And work everything else out from there.
You just fundamentally violated the uncertainty principle. You can't just think it really hard to make it happen.
2008-08-02 23:22:13
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6770|Cambridge (UK)

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I'm talking the whole cannot know position and velocity at the same time thing.
I don't buy into the idea that we'll never be able to solve that problem.

If I know the rules by which everything in the universe operates. And I know that the universe is deterministic. Then I can first measure the velocity. Then later measure the position. And work everything else out from there.
You just fundamentally violated the uncertainty principle. You can't just think it really hard to make it happen.
The uncertainty principle mostly applies only if the universe is non-deterministic.

If the universe is deterministic, it may be very hard, but it can be worked out.

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-08-02 23:23:11)

2008-08-02 23:22:40
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6679|Canberra, AUS

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I'm talking the whole cannot know position and velocity at the same time thing.
I don't buy into the idea that we'll never be able to solve that problem.

If I know the rules by which everything in the universe operates. And I know that the universe is deterministic. Then I can first measure the velocity. Then later measure the position. And work everything else out from there.
But it would have changed in that time.

And there is an upper limit to the accuracy with which you can measure something. As FM said, the uncertainty principle: you cannot measure accuracy OR velocity with absolute accuracy, and the more accurately you measure one, the other will become more uncertain. That is a fact of the universe as concrete and basic as, say, entropy.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman

 

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