Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6410|North Carolina
Hmm...  I'll put it this way.  The quickest way to become a racist against black people is to live in a typical black neighborhood.

Generally speaking, most prejudice comes from 2 sources: 1) experience & 2) ignorance.  Some people become racist because of repeated negative experiences with a given race.  Admittedly, I've had quite a few negative experiences with black people because of the area I currently live in.  However, I'm prejudiced rather than racist.  I'll get to the difference in just a minute.

Other people become racist because of belief in what they've been told rather than experience.  There are many white people that are racist against black people who get their views from media instead of experience because of the lack of black people in their area.

The first form of racism is more understandable.  It doesn't make it right, but it's easier to understand why it happens.

The second form is far more repugnant to me because it has no logical basis.

Now, I said before that I'm prejudiced.  My prejudice is towards 2 groups: blacks and Muslims.  I have prejudice toward certain black people because of crimes committed by black people against me and my brother.  I have prejudice toward Muslims because of what I've researched.  Admittedly, my prejudice toward Muslims is similar to the ignorance racism I mentioned, but it becomes difficult not to hold a prejudice toward Muslims when you read a lot about things like Wahhabism and some of the brutal history of Mohammed.

Now, what distinguishes my prejudice from racism is that I don't have unconditional hate for either group.  I am very guarded around black people who dress and act like "thugs," but I befriend the polite and educated black people I meet.

With Muslims, it's similar.  I don't know many Muslims on a personal basis, but the ones I've met have shown a wide range of viewpoints.  Many of the African immigrants that work in my warehouse are Muslim, and I get along with them fine.  I know a rare few Middle Eastern Muslims as well, and while I haven't really gotten to know them, they seem relatively normal.  You can bet that I'd react differently, however, if I met a militant Muslim, and I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of many aspects of Islam.

Now, to explain how an actual racist behaves, you have to cross the line into completely illogical and radical territory.  A racist against blacks would hate all black people in general and would only befriend even a polite black person if forced into it.   Racists against Muslims are basically the same.

Probably one of the best films I've seen on racism is "American History X".  For those of you who haven't seen it, it's an excellent drama that shows the nuances of racism and how people sometimes eventually overcome it.

Prejudice, on the other hand, is something much more subtle and tends to be more permanent in nature.  It's hard not to be prejudiced in many respects, the more experiences you garner in life.
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6676|UK

deeznutz1245 wrote:

m3thod wrote:

The shit i had to put as a kid because i was a 'fucking paki' is the fundemental reason i do not give a fuck about the UK.  Fuck em.
Ironically enough one of my best friends is Iraqi. He is very Americanized but people still give him shit here and there. He ignores it for the most part but I seriously doubt you should write off an entire country based on a few( unless it's France). Idiots are idiots where ever they call home.
Don't get me wrong I'm as British as they come.  There is no durka durka (whatever that is) about me.  As a child in the 80's where political correctness was a figment of someone's imagination being of Pakistani heritage meant you were abused.  That meant having dogs set on you which would nearly always be Alsatians fir some fucking reason, the fuckstain 2 doors down fighting my father and my father was constantly losing his job because he was got into a fight at work because someone didn't like the colour of his skin.

If i saw a punk i had to run for dear life, they would fuck your ass up. When i went to the mosque it meant using at the alleys and not travelling using the main roads in case i was seen.  I could easily handle kids of my age in fact the kid at infant school calling us chocolate bastards well i gave him the beating of his fucking life in the cloakroom.  But when the teenagers came i would piss my pants purposely to avoid a thrashing.

Shit like meant I've never felt attached to the UK.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Roc18
`
+655|5796|PROLLLY PROLLLY PROLLLY

Kmarion wrote:

Roc18 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

It is how you handle your prejudices that makes a person racist. Prejudices are developed with experience and are instinctual. By your logic racism is unavoidable. This I disagree with.
wrong, whether you show or dont show your prejudices you still have that instinctual disposition towards a race which is still racist, its whether you learn to accept people for who they are and let go of those instincts is when you over come racism.
This is a simpletons view. It is completely illogical. To shove said feelings under the rug because it is the unpopular thing to do will never lead to progress. I'd rather take on the tougher challenges and explore why people feel this way. That is to say I'd rather look them in the eye than to shame them into submission.
I never said to disregard the persons feelings, Im telling you the truth about why people act that way. People have instincts like you said that lead to predjudice and racism based on experiences and where the problem starts prejudgements with people from that race. Those people need help with dealing with people who look different from them becasue they are the problem, i dont know what you are defending.
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6348|tropical regions of london

Turquoise wrote:

Now, what distinguishes my prejudice from racism is that I don't have unconditional hate for either group.  I am very guarded around black people who dress and act like "thugs," but I befriend the polite and educated black people I meet.
you believe in order to be considered racist, you need to hate.  I personally disagree.


take it from my experience.  Ive known tons of racist fuckers in the Army from all over the country.  Most of them, if not all, werent hateful in the least.  But, the fact remained, they were racist fuckers.  Ive risked my life for them and they sure as shit have done the same for me.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6606|132 and Bush

Roc18 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Roc18 wrote:

wrong, whether you show or dont show your prejudices you still have that instinctual disposition towards a race which is still racist, its whether you learn to accept people for who they are and let go of those instincts is when you over come racism.
This is a simpletons view. It is completely illogical. To shove said feelings under the rug because it is the unpopular thing to do will never lead to progress. I'd rather take on the tougher challenges and explore why people feel this way. That is to say I'd rather look them in the eye than to shame them into submission.
I never said to disregard the persons feelings, Im telling you the truth about why people act that way. People have instincts like you said that lead to predjudice and racism based on experiences and where the problem starts prejudgements with people from that race. Those people need help with dealing with people who look different from them becasue they are the problem, i dont know what you are defending.
You quoted me and said I was wrong when I said "It is how you handle your prejudices that makes a person racist" (working through them etc..).  How is that different from what you just wrote?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6410|North Carolina

God Save the Queen wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Now, what distinguishes my prejudice from racism is that I don't have unconditional hate for either group.  I am very guarded around black people who dress and act like "thugs," but I befriend the polite and educated black people I meet.
you believe in order to be considered racist, you need to hate.  I personally disagree.


take it from my experience.  Ive known tons of racist fuckers in the Army from all over the country.  Most of them, if not all, werent hateful in the least.  But, the fact remained, they were racist fuckers.  Ive risked my life for them and they sure as shit have done the same for me.
It sounds like we use a different definition then.  For example, I'll probably vote for Obama because he's educated and successful, but I don't care much for thugs.  Maybe I'm classist rather than racist....
Thorax
Banned
+77|5809

Turquoise wrote:

Hmm...  I'll put it this way.  The quickest way to become a racist against black people is to live in a typical black neighborhood.

Generally speaking, most prejudice comes from 2 sources: 1) experience & 2) ignorance.  Some people become racist because of repeated negative experiences with a given race.  Admittedly, I've had quite a few negative experiences with black people because of the area I currently live in.  However, I'm prejudiced rather than racist.  I'll get to the difference in just a minute.

Other people become racist because of belief in what they've been told rather than experience.  There are many white people that are racist against black people who get their views from media instead of experience because of the lack of black people in their area.

The first form of racism is more understandable.  It doesn't make it right, but it's easier to understand why it happens.

The second form is far more repugnant to me because it has no logical basis.

Now, I said before that I'm prejudiced.  My prejudice is towards 2 groups: blacks and Muslims.  I have prejudice toward certain black people because of crimes committed by black people against me and my brother.  I have prejudice toward Muslims because of what I've researched.  Admittedly, my prejudice toward Muslims is similar to the ignorance racism I mentioned, but it becomes difficult not to hold a prejudice toward Muslims when you read a lot about things like Wahhabism and some of the brutal history of Mohammed.

Now, what distinguishes my prejudice from racism is that I don't have unconditional hate for either group.  I am very guarded around black people who dress and act like "thugs," but I befriend the polite and educated black people I meet.

With Muslims, it's similar.  I don't know many Muslims on a personal basis, but the ones I've met have shown a wide range of viewpoints.  Many of the African immigrants that work in my warehouse are Muslim, and I get along with them fine.  I know a rare few Middle Eastern Muslims as well, and while I haven't really gotten to know them, they seem relatively normal.  You can bet that I'd react differently, however, if I met a militant Muslim, and I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of many aspects of Islam.

Now, to explain how an actual racist behaves, you have to cross the line into completely illogical and radical territory.  A racist against blacks would hate all black people in general and would only befriend even a polite black person if forced into it.   Racists against Muslims are basically the same.

Probably one of the best films I've seen on racism is "American History X".  For those of you who haven't seen it, it's an excellent drama that shows the nuances of racism and how people sometimes eventually overcome it.

Prejudice, on the other hand, is something much more subtle and tends to be more permanent in nature.  It's hard not to be prejudiced in many respects, the more experiences you garner in life.
This.  He just nailed down what I've been trying to get across for ages now.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6606|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

It's hard not to be prejudiced in many respects, the more experiences you garner in life.
Try impossible.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6348|tropical regions of london

Turquoise wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Now, what distinguishes my prejudice from racism is that I don't have unconditional hate for either group.  I am very guarded around black people who dress and act like "thugs," but I befriend the polite and educated black people I meet.
you believe in order to be considered racist, you need to hate.  I personally disagree.


take it from my experience.  Ive known tons of racist fuckers in the Army from all over the country.  Most of them, if not all, werent hateful in the least.  But, the fact remained, they were racist fuckers.  Ive risked my life for them and they sure as shit have done the same for me.
It sounds like we use a different definition then.
I think that is the case.  But, whats with the Obama example?  Im voting for Obama because he's not McCain or Clinton or a religious nut.
Roc18
`
+655|5796|PROLLLY PROLLLY PROLLLY

Kmarion wrote:

Roc18 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

This is a simpletons view. It is completely illogical. To shove said feelings under the rug because it is the unpopular thing to do will never lead to progress. I'd rather take on the tougher challenges and explore why people feel this way. That is to say I'd rather look them in the eye than to shame them into submission.
I never said to disregard the persons feelings, Im telling you the truth about why people act that way. People have instincts like you said that lead to predjudice and racism based on experiences and where the problem starts prejudgements with people from that race. Those people need help with dealing with people who look different from them becasue they are the problem, i dont know what you are defending.
You quoted me and said I was wrong when I said "It is how you handle your prejudices that makes a person racist" (working through them etc..).  How is that different from what you just wrote?
By handle you predjudices I thought you meant showing them openly or being secretive about them. What I was saying is that whether someone shows their instinctual predjuce or not, they are still predjudiced towards everyone that looks a certain way because of how one person that happened to look like an entire group of people acted towards them and that leads to and is racism.

Last edited by Roc18 (2008-07-07 16:46:44)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6410|North Carolina

God Save the Queen wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:


you believe in order to be considered racist, you need to hate.  I personally disagree.


take it from my experience.  Ive known tons of racist fuckers in the Army from all over the country.  Most of them, if not all, werent hateful in the least.  But, the fact remained, they were racist fuckers.  Ive risked my life for them and they sure as shit have done the same for me.
It sounds like we use a different definition then.
I think that is the case.  But, whats with the Obama example?  Im voting for Obama because he's not McCain or Clinton or a religious nut.
That's part of why I'm voting for Obama.  I used Obama as an example by pointing out that I don't mind having a black (or half-black anyway) man as president.  If I was a racist, I would vote against Obama solely because of his race.

Granted, voting FOR Obama just because of his race could also be seen as racist.

Overall, the reason I support Obama is a combination of him being a nice change from neoconservatism, his compromising nature, and because we really need someone charismatic after the embarassment that Bush has been.  Obama will likely improve our image abroad by leaps and bounds.

Granted, I can't say I agree with all of his policies though....
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6606|132 and Bush

Roc18 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Roc18 wrote:

I never said to disregard the persons feelings, Im telling you the truth about why people act that way. People have instincts like you said that lead to predjudice and racism based on experiences and where the problem starts prejudgements with people from that race. Those people need help with dealing with people who look different from them becasue they are the problem, i dont know what you are defending.
You quoted me and said I was wrong when I said "It is how you handle your prejudices that makes a person racist" (working through them etc..).  How is that different from what you just wrote?
By handle you predjudices I thought you meant showing them openly or being secretive about them. What I was saying is that whether someone shows their instinctual predjuce or not they are still predjudiced towards everyone that looks a certain way because of the way one person that happened to look like an entire group of people acted towards them and that leads to and is racism.
Ahh, you misunderstood me then. What you do with those feelings, examples: "lets go beat some black people up" or stating "I feel this way because", are two entirely different things. One is emotion driven hate and one is deductive reasoning based on personal experience (aka prejudice).
Xbone Stormsurgezz
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6348|tropical regions of london

Turquoise wrote:

Granted, voting FOR Obama just because of his race could also be seen as racist.
bingo
Roc18
`
+655|5796|PROLLLY PROLLLY PROLLLY

Kmarion wrote:

Roc18 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


You quoted me and said I was wrong when I said "It is how you handle your prejudices that makes a person racist" (working through them etc..).  How is that different from what you just wrote?
By handle you predjudices I thought you meant showing them openly or being secretive about them. What I was saying is that whether someone shows their instinctual predjuce or not they are still predjudiced towards everyone that looks a certain way because of the way one person that happened to look like an entire group of people acted towards them and that leads to and is racism.
Ahh, you misunderstood me then. What you do with those feelings, examples: "lets go beat some black people up" or stating "I feel this way because" are two entirely different things. One is emotion driven hate and one is deductive reasoning based on personal experience (aka prejudice).
One is just more extreme than the other thats all, the latter may lead to the "lets go beat some black people up" thing or someone may just not like black people but arent violent towards them its all predjudice which can lead to racism if its based solely on race, they are both emotion driven based on experiences in ones life. Racism is a type of discrimination, If its not based on race then its just plain discrimination which is judgments and decisions we make every day.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6534|Global Command

God Save the Queen wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Granted, voting FOR Obama just because of his race could also be seen as racist.
bingo
Superman?
usmarine2
Banned
+233|5796|Dublin, Ohio
wow.  gj mods
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6676|UK

ATG wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Granted, voting FOR Obama just because of his race could also be seen as racist.
bingo
Superman?
0.7% of your GNP.

Thats like throwing a pea at Jupiter.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6410|North Carolina

ATG wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Granted, voting FOR Obama just because of his race could also be seen as racist.
bingo
Superman?
That would be another example of something I definitely disagree with Obama on.  I prefer that foreign aid be privately managed, not paid for by tax money.
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6676|UK

usmarine2 wrote:

wow.  gj mods
There is nothing wrong in this thread.  Its all been civil debating a controversial topic.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6606|132 and Bush

Roc18 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Roc18 wrote:

By handle you predjudices I thought you meant showing them openly or being secretive about them. What I was saying is that whether someone shows their instinctual predjuce or not they are still predjudiced towards everyone that looks a certain way because of the way one person that happened to look like an entire group of people acted towards them and that leads to and is racism.
Ahh, you misunderstood me then. What you do with those feelings, examples: "lets go beat some black people up" or stating "I feel this way because" are two entirely different things. One is emotion driven hate and one is deductive reasoning based on personal experience (aka prejudice).
One is just more extreme than the other thats all, the latter may lead to the "lets go beat some black people up" thing or someone may just not like black people but arent violent towards them its all predjudice which can lead to racism if its based solely on race, they are both emotion driven based on experiences in ones life. Racism is a type of discrimination, If its not based on race then its just plain discrimination which is judgments and decisions we make every day.
Wait, so it's racist to say why you feel a certain way? There is a definitive line you are trying to blur. To logically conclude something with reasonable evidence/experience does not require any emotion at all. You don't have to hate what is different in order to determine that there is in fact something different.

Again, I am not agreeing with this but rather I am explaining the rationality.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6348|tropical regions of london

ATG wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Granted, voting FOR Obama just because of his race could also be seen as racist.
bingo
Superman?
I would argue that that is much more effective way at curbing terrorism.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6410|North Carolina

m3thod wrote:

ATG wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:

bingo
Superman?
0.7% of your GNP.

Thats like throwing a pea at Jupiter.
Not when you consider how large our GDP is.
usmarine2
Banned
+233|5796|Dublin, Ohio

m3thod wrote:

usmarine2 wrote:

wow.  gj mods
There is nothing wrong in this thread.  Its all been civil debating a controversial topic.
not really.  just another thread where someone calls out someone else.  "respect other members and such blah blah blah"
Thorax
Banned
+77|5809
Just a few things I have pondered:

1.  Why do black people consistantly complain about the fact that they are not given a fair lot in life, that they are unusually suseptable to crime and violence but then turn around and embrace a pop-culture that glorifies crime and being, for lack of a better word, stupid (i.e bad grammar, idiotic choices, degradation of women)?

2. Why is it, that Africa can't seem to get it's shit together?  Anytime any natural resource of any importance is discoved it leads to genocide or famine?  Why are warlords allowed to rule by the people who by far out number them.  (I.E. Zimbabwe, when ruled by the British one of the most prosperous and peaceful countries in Africa, when they leave it turns violent and the economy falls into shambles)?

3. Why is it that Native Americans receive more goverment aid and assistance than any other group of people in the U.S. yet prominent NA communities are in shambles, crime is high and unemployment is sky high? 

4. Why is it that Asian and Indian immigrants are able to do so well for themselves after coming to the U.S. but other races tend to fail or simply not flourish?

5. Why is it that predominately white cultures have seemingly been the ones that have dominated, flourished longer and more lavishly thoughout history, even today becoming the majority of peaceful and civilized countries on earth, but have not existed as long as some other cultures.  (I.E. comparing the English, German, U.S. Australian,, etc etc countries against African Nations and South American nations.)

6. Why is it that the people who demand the most from their governments and societies are usually the ones who contribute the least to their governments and societies?

7.  Why is it that the people who tend to "defend" minorities are normally the ones who gives minorities the worst names and why are these people allowed to keep their positions?





These are a few questions I've had that haven't ever really been explained without the recipient spewing some "all these problems were brought on by the white man" answer.  No, this is not a racist manifesto or some bullshit, simply questions.
THE_EYE
Banned
+76|5810|Amsterdam, NY

ATG wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Granted, voting FOR Obama just because of his race could also be seen as racist.
bingo
Superman?
youdomeanchucknorrisrite?

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