BF2S Forums Man shot and killed two burglars

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Parker wrote:

well gentlemen, i would love to stay and continue this tonight, but if i dont sleep now, tomorrow is going to be a rough day.


i really think that some of you would benefit from actually seeing what a gunshot wound does....not on the TV or the interwebs.
im talking being right there....listening to that shit, watching it...smelling it.
it made me value life MUCH more than i ever did before. it put a lot of things into perspective for me....like what the responsibility actually IS when you carry a gun.
or, what the value of my property is compared to a human life.

Living in a bad part of town might make you value order compared to human life a little more.

lowing, ill explain to you why you ARENT a responsible gun owner tomorrow.

this, i will address now:
i live in st. louis missouri....i think we fell in highest crime rate from last year....to 2nd or third.

every day there is a murder within 20 miles of me....shit, just tonight across the river they caught some cocksucker that killed EIGHT fucking people.
less than two months ago, i got talk to some guy while the ambulance showed up.
ya, that was cool...he got shot in the back as well. multiple times...dont worry, he was innocent...just in the wrong place at the wrong time. ever tried to tell someone everything was ok, even though you KNEW it wasnt going to be?
worst fucking lie i have ever told.

about five years ago, i had the original awesome experience...though, this time it was a head wound....there wasnt any talking. just a weakened skull from a .380 round that finally gave way.

i see bad shit every day i leave my house....but you know what?
all that bad shit STILL doesnt make me think those people should have died for that. i appreciate order as much as the next person, but theft will never dictate the taking of life for me.

I don't believe he will be critical of your safety/handling practices, but from the opinions you have expoused I believe Mr. Parker will target your mindset of when firearm use for defense or some other purpose is appropriate.

Someone may have already stated this, but if you are really worried about losing your property, I would recommend getting property insurance.

If someone steals something of yours, your provider will help you to replace those items. You don't have to kill anyone, and you don't have to go to court. It's a win win situation!

Parker wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Parker wrote:

well gentlemen, i would love to stay and continue this tonight, but if i dont sleep now, tomorrow is going to be a rough day.


i really think that some of you would benefit from actually seeing what a gunshot wound does....not on the TV or the interwebs.
im talking being right there....listening to that shit, watching it...smelling it.
it made me value life MUCH more than i ever did before. it put a lot of things into perspective for me....like what the responsibility actually IS when you carry a gun.
or, what the value of my property is compared to a human life.

Living in a bad part of town might make you value order compared to human life a little more.

lowing, ill explain to you why you ARENT a responsible gun owner tomorrow.

this, i will address now:
i live in st. louis missouri....i think we fell in highest crime rate from last year....to 2nd or third.

every day there is a murder within 20 miles of me....shit, just tonight across the river they caught some cocksucker that killed EIGHT fucking people.
less than two months ago, i got talk to some guy while the ambulance showed up.
ya, that was cool...he got shot in the back as well. multiple times...dont worry, he was innocent...just in the wrong place at the wrong time. ever tried to tell someone everything was ok, even though you KNEW it wasnt going to be?
worst fucking lie i have ever told.

about five years ago, i had the original awesome experience...though, this time it was a head wound....there wasnt any talking. just a weakened skull from a .380 round that finally gave way.

i see bad shit every day i leave my house....but you know what?
all that bad shit STILL doesnt make me think those people should have died for that. i appreciate order as much as the next person, but theft will never dictate the taking of life for me.

20 miles can be a long, long way.

Do you have people fucking with your property? Screwing over the people around you? At least three large liquor stores within literally 1000 yards of your house?

People can just be really shitty. If you can look those people in the eye and honestly tell them they are a benefit to society, more power to you.

Reciprocity wrote:

Volatile wrote:

Someone may have already stated this, but if you are really worried about losing your property, I would recommend getting property insurance.

If someone steals something of yours, your provider will help you to replace those items. You don't have to kill anyone, and you don't have to go to court. It's a win win situation!

But I'm a 14yo who desparately wants to take down a bad guy with my sweet g36 airsoft rifle, it's got a laser.  Your strategy isn't fun.

No.

I'm a 40yo suburban militiaman.  Society is crumbling and it's my job to clean up the streets, one neighborhood at a time.  Your strategy isn't fun.

Dealing with situations in front of your nose is not that same as "cleaning up the streets, one neighborhood at a time."

Do you all just sit idly by while there are bad things happening right in front of you?

Reciprocity wrote:

because I'm not going to shoot anyone commiting a nonviolent crime, who's not on my property, who's not threatening me.

why?

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

because I'm not going to shoot anyone commiting a nonviolent crime, who's not on my property, who's not threatening me.

why?

Because they're not on his property and not threatening him?

Sheesh, FM, are you being deliberately obtuse?

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

because I'm not going to shoot anyone commiting a nonviolent crime, who's not on my property, who's not threatening me.

why?

The same reason why cops don't execute people committing traffic violations, the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Oh, and some of us value human life.

I'm under the impression that you immediately condemn anyone who may misstep or make wrong decisions in life. You don't know the individuals committing the crime. You don't know if this is the first and last time these individuals will do this. I've done some stupid crap in my youth, but eventually I changed and matured into an individual that strives to be a contributor to society, treating all of my fellow man with respect, and holding myself to high moral standards. If we had it your way I would not exist and would have never been given the chance to become useful to society.

Volatile wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

because I'm not going to shoot anyone commiting a nonviolent crime, who's not on my property, who's not threatening me.

why?

The same reason why cops don't execute people committing traffic violations, the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Oh, and some of us value human life.

I'm under the impression that you immediately condemn anyone who may misstep or make wrong decisions in life. You don't know the individuals committing the crime. You don't know if this is the first and last time these individuals will do this. I've done some stupid crap in my youth, but eventually I changed and matured into an individual that strives to be a contributor to society, treating all of my fellow man with respect, and holding myself to high moral standards. If we had it your way I would not exist and would have never been given the chance to become useful to society.

There is a line in our vast array of rules. There is a line where everything before it has to do with safety rules and technicalities, things to grease the cogs of society and to aid individual members, but everything before that line can be bent or broken with typically little consequence. Speeding. Grass over 12 inches high in a suburban neighborhood. Driving with an expired license. Everyone should follow these rules, but when someone doesn't, life goes on. Accidents that are no one's fault can have far more grave consequences.

Past that line are the rules that hold society together, the rules that separate man from beast. Outright murder. Rape. Incest. Violating someone else's life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness for no other reason than short-sighted personal gain. If someone has gone so far astray as to cross these lines, they no longer warrant society's protection. They have shown blatant disregard for the rules and a complete lack of respect for their fellow human being, so I don't see why they deserve to be respected as a human in return. If our country's designated street cleaners scrape them up from the bottom, then they should be treated with the respect and rights of a convict, and given a chance at rehabilitation. If however you are not so lucky as to be picked up by the police, you are at the mercy of whatever upstanding citizen does catch you. You have made decisions to put your life in their hands, and they have at the very least not given society any reason not to trust them. Their actions will still be judged after the fact to determine if they were acceptable or not, and taking too many liberties with the power placed in their hands is walking a fine line, but it is still their choice to choose to take those actions or not.

No direct personal offense intended, but does society really need you? Honestly, looking back on everything you have done in your life, has society as a whole really benefited that much? There are an awful lot of humans, and I think that as a race we could have done without just about any one of them and we would be in more or less the same situation. I certainly don't think that society needs those that have not just crossed that line, but crossed that line with malice. Sure there may be some who turn their life around to some degree, maybe even being an overall positive influence. Do you think they're in the majority? Do you think we could get rid of the whole lot and limp along okay? Any one of us are replaceable, so why settle for a defect?

Respect for life...it's a funny thing. I think most of it has been artificially drilled into us because everyone is so scared of someone else pulling the plug when our back is turned. Not to get too existential here, but we don't really know how bad death is, or how good life is, we have no basis for comparison. If anything the people that do believe in the afterlife generally believe that it is a happy one. We just don't want our lives prematurely ended because well...because. Of course there is natural instinct, but it seems to me this instinct has multiplied as we pack more and more humans together. Capital punishment wasn't even a topic of debate 1,000 years ago, and now we have a fairly split debate, probably with a majority pro life (mostly from urban areas right?). However even without this unnatural influence, it isn't easy to take human life. There is already plenty of natural instinct against it, and I feel confident that that instinct alone is enough to keep us out of trouble in scene of the-crime cases. No normal person enjoys killing another human, and people who say otherwise (as Parker has said) are full-o'-bullshit e-badasses.

There are more important things in life than life. If you don't recognize that, I would like to know how you justify war, high-risk jobs, poor food, getting out of bed in the morning, all of it.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

..There are more important things in life than life. If you don't recognize that, I would like to know how you justify war, high-risk jobs, poor food, getting out of bed in the morning, all of it.

maybe you're right from a philosophical point of view ( the bigger picture, and all of that ), but as an indivdual, I don't see anything that is more important than my life. Because if I don't have that, I have nothing. Literally.

As Reciprocity has said, Horn was pushing it. He didn't have to get a gun and go outside, and he even admitted to the 911 operator that his only intention when doing so was to kill the robbers.
I mean, seriously, how can you justify shooting someone in the back as self defense ?

Something is wrong in a society when people are allowed to shoot unarmed robbers in the back , and get to walk away free. That's not right.
Of course, robbery isn't right either, but no one deserves to die for that.
If people like Mr Horn are supposed to be the "good" guys, then we are truly fucked.

IRONCHEF wrote:

FEOS wrote:

I don't know about murder, but the guy should definitely have been convicted of manslaughter at a minimum.

I understand trying to stop crime, but they weren't affecting him or his property, they were already out of the house and running away from him. They posed no threat...at least based on the information that's been provided.

Perhaps there was additional information the jury had that bf2s didn't?

I only say "Murder" because he clearly discussed it (he used the word kill with the dispatcher), and apparently he was on that call for 10 good minutes while the dirtbags were doing their thing.  Murder in it's court approved definition denotes the planning, or forethought prior to doing.  There's no real time limit on it, though more time sure nails it down.  Manslaughter, like a drunk driver killing a kid on the sidewalk, getting jumped by some gangsters and killing one, etc is not the same as degree 1, 2, or 3 of murder.  I think that if Horn was startled, or otherwise caught off guard by these burglars..then yeah..a manslaughter charge would be apropriate.  But he sought them out..he pursued, was the aggressor, and was not "stopping" them legally..he was killing..the shots in the back support that heavily.

BUt again...the jury made that call after whatever evidence/testimony they had.  Good for them...bad for what the precedent means for other texans who are just as balsy as Horn..or as stupid as horn.

I understand the difference between murder and manslaughter...that's why I said "at a minimum". It is a scary precedent, regardless of where it occurred.

I read all of this shit and I can get passed the fact that NONE of you will say...........Hey don't steal someone elses shit or you could get killed, it ain't worth it. You insist on saying ..........Hey don't kill someone who is trying to steal your shit, because your shit ain't worth it..........God I hate liberals.

Poor criminals
Poor lazy asses
Evil achievers
Evil rich people..


You guys are something else.