gotta go with cam on this one.
Only read a few pages and decided I'd only address the OP since i'd go nuts arguing with people here.
My daughter, when she was 5, wondered why it was always black people in police cars, on tv getting caught or being hunted, etc. Knowing it actually wasn't just a simple bias in reporting, or otherwise disparity unfairly parading blacks as the crime leaders..I attempted to tell her that 1) People of all colors and backgrounds commit crimes (we call them "breaking police rules"). 2) We even played devil's advocate and said that it's usually the white people who start fires and do crimes against children..and we even tried to explain what a serial criminal was and added white people to that category as the leader. But in the end, we had to admit that while there's nothing wrong with black people being black, but there was something wrong with "the way they live" (easiest way to explain how black culture is crap).
And honestly, that's my only answer. "Black Culture" is 99% of the reason blacks are the predominant criminals. And Ken's stats on page one don't mean jack since it's total numbers on welfare, not % of an entire race reported...which I'm sure falls heavily on blacks..and for that, I blame their culture...since we know blacks are just as smart, capable, and devoted as any other race in regards to financial and educational success.
My daughter, when she was 5, wondered why it was always black people in police cars, on tv getting caught or being hunted, etc. Knowing it actually wasn't just a simple bias in reporting, or otherwise disparity unfairly parading blacks as the crime leaders..I attempted to tell her that 1) People of all colors and backgrounds commit crimes (we call them "breaking police rules"). 2) We even played devil's advocate and said that it's usually the white people who start fires and do crimes against children..and we even tried to explain what a serial criminal was and added white people to that category as the leader. But in the end, we had to admit that while there's nothing wrong with black people being black, but there was something wrong with "the way they live" (easiest way to explain how black culture is crap).
And honestly, that's my only answer. "Black Culture" is 99% of the reason blacks are the predominant criminals. And Ken's stats on page one don't mean jack since it's total numbers on welfare, not % of an entire race reported...which I'm sure falls heavily on blacks..and for that, I blame their culture...since we know blacks are just as smart, capable, and devoted as any other race in regards to financial and educational success.
Last edited by IRONCHEF (2008-06-23 11:33:01)
did you just finish watching a movie?
Ohhh you excel at everything, no wonder you are such an arrogant little fuck.....You may not understand this Cam, but I was referring to something a little more from a family than just food and water.... We were talking about upbringing, not fucking survival. So why don't you stow your dramatics and stick to addressing what I have posted, instead of trying to tell me how lucky I am. I already know how lucky I am, the only difference is, I worked for my luck, and I expect everyone else to do the same, while you are willing to excuse people from their personal obligations to themselves, their families and society, because their GGG Grandfather had a tough life.CameronPoe wrote:
lol @ 'revolting'. I work harder than most people around me and excelled in academia and excel at my profession as my promotions, bonuses and raises indicate. What an ungrateful brat you are to disrespect the parents that made sure you didn't starve and that you went to school. Unbelievable!lowing wrote:
Sorry Cam, I do not buy into this bullshit that I am excused for my actions bcause I had a shitty upbringing......In fact, my step dad was a complete asshole. I took that experience, knowing exactly what my sons would from me because I did not have it. I work very hard to provide them with the type of father I longed for. I do not beat my kids because that is what my dad did and it was "how I was raised". I AM personally responsible for myself. I know that notion is revolting to you. Why take responsibility for yourself or your actions, when you have an entire race or govt. you can blame? Good stuff Cam.
PS You're the one blaming race, not me - I'm blaming inherited social conditions. Don't try and pin your racism on me. You really should try reading that link - Statistics + American Professors of Sociology > Lowing.
You call me a racist, when all I do is hold EVERYONE to the same standard....When you insist on 2 seporate standards, one for blacks and one for whites....I am about equality, I am sorry if I insist white people are included in that equality in todays world. I do not owe anyone anyrthing. and I will not apologize for being white.
I have never blamed race on anything, I charge individuals for their own actions. I defy you, to show me anywhere in the history of this forum where I have stated otherwise. Do not confuse the fact that I will not accept white people as the reason for personal failure.
Ok, you seem to be utterly failing to notice what everyone is saying. There's nothing significantly different about American black people. It's just that the time between equal rights and the present day is nowhere near enough to get near to an approximate equal distribution of wealth between black and white Americans due to the relatively low rates of social mobility. Higher poverty and therfore crime are absolutley predicatable consequences of recent US history if you assume that black people are about as likely to drag themselves out of poverty as white people.lowing wrote:
Ohhh you excel at everything, no wonder you are such an arrogant little fuck.....You may not understand this Cam, but I was referring to something a little more from a family than just food and water.... We were talking about upbringing, not fucking survival. So why don't you stow your dramatics and stick to addressing what I have posted, instead of trying to tell me how lucky I am. I already know how lucky I am, the only difference is, I worked for my luck, and I expect everyone else to do the same, while you are willing to excuse people from their personal obligations to themselves, their families and society, because their GGG Grandfather had a tough life.CameronPoe wrote:
lol @ 'revolting'. I work harder than most people around me and excelled in academia and excel at my profession as my promotions, bonuses and raises indicate. What an ungrateful brat you are to disrespect the parents that made sure you didn't starve and that you went to school. Unbelievable!lowing wrote:
Sorry Cam, I do not buy into this bullshit that I am excused for my actions bcause I had a shitty upbringing......In fact, my step dad was a complete asshole. I took that experience, knowing exactly what my sons would from me because I did not have it. I work very hard to provide them with the type of father I longed for. I do not beat my kids because that is what my dad did and it was "how I was raised". I AM personally responsible for myself. I know that notion is revolting to you. Why take responsibility for yourself or your actions, when you have an entire race or govt. you can blame? Good stuff Cam.
PS You're the one blaming race, not me - I'm blaming inherited social conditions. Don't try and pin your racism on me. You really should try reading that link - Statistics + American Professors of Sociology > Lowing.
You call me a racist, when all I do is hold EVERYONE to the same standard....When you insist on 2 seporate standards, one for blacks and one for whites....I am about equality, I am sorry if I insist white people are included in that equality in todays world. I do not owe anyone anyrthing. and I will not apologize for being white.
I have never blamed race on anything, I charge individuals for their own actions. I defy you, to show me anywhere in the history of this forum where I have stated otherwise. Do not confuse the fact that I will not accept white people as the reason for personal failure.
It is still completely true that part of the reason for the continued wealth disparity between ethnicities is due to history and society, there's simply no way to avoid it other than saying that every study ever undertaken on these topics is wrong, social mobility rates are a lie, and all sociologists are idiots.
Some may argue that it's about time people took more charge of their own destinies rather than relying on others to do it for them or giving up and blaming their woes on others. if this is the case, then all of what their forefathers fought so hard for is for naughtPureFodder wrote:
Ok, you seem to be utterly failing to notice what everyone is saying. There's nothing significantly different about American black people. It's just that the time between equal rights and the present day is nowhere near enough to get near to an approximate equal distribution of wealth between black and white Americans due to the relatively low rates of social mobility. Higher poverty and therfore crime are absolutley predicatable consequences of recent US history if you assume that black people are about as likely to drag themselves out of poverty as white people.
It is still completely true that part of the reason for the continued wealth disparity between ethnicities is due to history and society, there's simply no way to avoid it other than saying that every study ever undertaken on these topics is wrong, social mobility rates are a lie, and all sociologists are idiots.
and this is a universal statement - not governed by race or creed
Last edited by CaptainSpaulding71 (2008-06-23 13:51:30)
The first problem is your thinking, you must not think of people in terms of race. Judge everyone individualy as everyone makes thier own choices.
How about, hard working american instead of hard working race.
How about, hard working american instead of hard working race.
I know it is not easy to explain the intricate workings of American, interracial society to a child but if you tell a child there is "something wrong with the way black people live" you are helping to shape an inherent racial prejudice that will be very hard for them to shake in later life. Why not tell the kid that there are a lot of poor people in many black neighbourhoods and because of that there is a lot of crime. That way she can still judge each black person on their own merits without having an inbuilt belief that they have lived a bad kind of lifestyle.IRONCHEF wrote:
Only read a few pages and decided I'd only address the OP since i'd go nuts arguing with people here.
My daughter, when she was 5, wondered why it was always black people in police cars, on tv getting caught or being hunted, etc. Knowing it actually wasn't just a simple bias in reporting, or otherwise disparity unfairly parading blacks as the crime leaders..I attempted to tell her that 1) People of all colors and backgrounds commit crimes (we call them "breaking police rules"). 2) We even played devil's advocate and said that it's usually the white people who start fires and do crimes against children..and we even tried to explain what a serial criminal was and added white people to that category as the leader. But in the end, we had to admit that while there's nothing wrong with black people being black, but there was something wrong with "the way they live" (easiest way to explain how black culture is crap).
And honestly, that's my only answer. "Black Culture" is 99% of the reason blacks are the predominant criminals. And Ken's stats on page one don't mean jack since it's total numbers on welfare, not % of an entire race reported...which I'm sure falls heavily on blacks..and for that, I blame their culture...since we know blacks are just as smart, capable, and devoted as any other race in regards to financial and educational success.
True, and I apologize. I actually didn't use those words. I believe it was more subtle, less bigoted, etc. It may have been along the lines of "..alot of the people with dark skin around here make different choices because of the way they are raised by their mommies and daddies. They also make different choices because of how they feel as people with dark skin." She actually doesn't call them black, she called them people with darker skin..so I used that language with her. She sees her mommy and daddy get pissed at the little punk-ass gangster kids who walk in front of cars on busy streets staring them down challenging drivers, and she hears some of our epithets so she's aware that it's more than just the ones she sees on the curb being interviewed in cuffs and in the squad cars. Sadly, we have shootings often in our neighborhood almost weekly..including a homicide last wednesday (one of these probably.) And also, whenever we have to explain racially sensitive things to our little ones, we make sure to heavily reinforce the reality that skin color, reference to skin color in terms of negative things, etc are not what define people. ONe of her best friends is a nice little boy who's black and we say things like "..and while many of the bad people the police catch are black, there's just as many good people who are black like your friend Khalil." Sounds weird typing it here, but it resonates well when spoken to a child.Braddock wrote:
I know it is not easy to explain the intricate workings of American, interracial society to a child but if you tell a child there is "something wrong with the way black people live" you are helping to shape an inherent racial prejudice that will be very hard for them to shake in later life. Why not tell the kid that there are a lot of poor people in many black neighbourhoods and because of that there is a lot of crime. That way she can still judge each black person on their own merits without having an inbuilt belief that they have lived a bad kind of lifestyle.IRONCHEF wrote:
Only read a few pages and decided I'd only address the OP since i'd go nuts arguing with people here.
My daughter, when she was 5, wondered why it was always black people in police cars, on tv getting caught or being hunted, etc. Knowing it actually wasn't just a simple bias in reporting, or otherwise disparity unfairly parading blacks as the crime leaders..I attempted to tell her that 1) People of all colors and backgrounds commit crimes (we call them "breaking police rules"). 2) We even played devil's advocate and said that it's usually the white people who start fires and do crimes against children..and we even tried to explain what a serial criminal was and added white people to that category as the leader. But in the end, we had to admit that while there's nothing wrong with black people being black, but there was something wrong with "the way they live" (easiest way to explain how black culture is crap).
And honestly, that's my only answer. "Black Culture" is 99% of the reason blacks are the predominant criminals. And Ken's stats on page one don't mean jack since it's total numbers on welfare, not % of an entire race reported...which I'm sure falls heavily on blacks..and for that, I blame their culture...since we know blacks are just as smart, capable, and devoted as any other race in regards to financial and educational success.
Last edited by IRONCHEF (2008-06-23 14:25:39)
We have racism here in Ireland like every other nation but an interesting little fact about the Irish language is that, as ancient as it is, it is very much not racist. For example the direct translation for black man in Irish should be "fear dubh" but in Ireland the devil is often referred to as "an fear dubh" (the black man) and as such black people are actually called "duine gorm", which translates to "blue people"!
Last edited by Braddock (2008-06-23 14:30:48)
SPeaking of international racial issues... I'll submit that in Brazil, the blacks there are NOT nearly "as bad" as their American counterparts. THey do NOT have the chip on their shoulder, the life-style/culture, or the ghetto attitude our blacks have. They are also not discriminated against nearly as much as American blacks are though I think it's safe to say they suffer financially just as much, if not more than their American counterparts. So no, I don't buy the economic disparity idea..it's truly a cultural thing. THere's no uppity negros in Brasil. Olé!
lol. Incapable of simple reading comprehension I see. Nowhere, not in any post ever in this thread or others, did I state separate standards should apply to different races within America. Please direct me to said post and we can proceed from there. You are incapable of differentiating a logical explanation of the situation from advocating some position regarding positive discrimination. I am stating why crime is more prevalent amongst blacks - BECAUSE OF THE DISADVANTAGES THEY INHERITED, THE RELATIVELY SHORT SPACE OF TIME SINCE EMANCIPATION, THE DIFFICULTY IN BREAKING OUT OF THE POVERTY CYCLE and numerous other reasons already expounded upon. I am stating plainly obvious facts you seem not to be able to comprehend. Neither of us are sociologists but I would expect most to grasp the rudiments of what we're talking about here. If you're going to post then post in response to things people actually say rather than stuff you dream up in your little head. Is plain written English that difficult for you?lowing wrote:
Ohhh you excel at everything, no wonder you are such an arrogant little fuck.....You may not understand this Cam, but I was referring to something a little more from a family than just food and water.... We were talking about upbringing, not fucking survival. So why don't you stow your dramatics and stick to addressing what I have posted, instead of trying to tell me how lucky I am. I already know how lucky I am, the only difference is, I worked for my luck, and I expect everyone else to do the same, while you are willing to excuse people from their personal obligations to themselves, their families and society, because their GGG Grandfather had a tough life.
You call me a racist, when all I do is hold EVERYONE to the same standard....When you insist on 2 seporate standards, one for blacks and one for whites....I am about equality, I am sorry if I insist white people are included in that equality in todays world. I do not owe anyone anyrthing. and I will not apologize for being white.
I have never blamed race on anything, I charge individuals for their own actions. I defy you, to show me anywhere in the history of this forum where I have stated otherwise. Do not confuse the fact that I will not accept white people as the reason for personal failure.
PS Nice hypocrisy: spout on about your own 'achievements' and then throw a childish tantrum when someone responds in kind...
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-23 15:50:32)
Got to the fourth page and it looked like a flame war to-be.
I don't see why people are calling lowing out that much for racism. Granted, he's not expressing himself in the best way (he rarely does, but that's just how he debates), but he has a point. It is at least partially cultural. There is still a bit of this mentality that some jobs are selling out, and a cultural glorification of less honorable jobs like dealing drugs. This, of course, doesn't apply to everyone - there rarely is something that does - but surely you can see that aspect? I'm not suggesting this is the sole cause, but it is definitely partially responsible.
Ironically, however, people like Che Guevara (a guy who alone is responsible for 200+ deaths) are also worshipped - but I'm not sure if it happens as much in other communities.
The USA is clearly living in the past with this racial issue, and anyone who denies it has either never been there or is/was oblivious to his surroundings. Positive discrimination like quotas and simply hiring the black guy to look good, or a school having the one black guy on campus in every fucking picture of the school to seem diverse, or movies over compensating in similar ways, are not going to make this situation improve. People are too afraid to say what they think because it might be racist or whatnot, and that way issues aren't resolved.
-kon
I don't see why people are calling lowing out that much for racism. Granted, he's not expressing himself in the best way (he rarely does, but that's just how he debates), but he has a point. It is at least partially cultural. There is still a bit of this mentality that some jobs are selling out, and a cultural glorification of less honorable jobs like dealing drugs. This, of course, doesn't apply to everyone - there rarely is something that does - but surely you can see that aspect? I'm not suggesting this is the sole cause, but it is definitely partially responsible.
Ironically, however, people like Che Guevara (a guy who alone is responsible for 200+ deaths) are also worshipped - but I'm not sure if it happens as much in other communities.
The USA is clearly living in the past with this racial issue, and anyone who denies it has either never been there or is/was oblivious to his surroundings. Positive discrimination like quotas and simply hiring the black guy to look good, or a school having the one black guy on campus in every fucking picture of the school to seem diverse, or movies over compensating in similar ways, are not going to make this situation improve. People are too afraid to say what they think because it might be racist or whatnot, and that way issues aren't resolved.
-kon
Probably not - a bit of digging around later (by both Jeff and I (cheers again Jeff)) and it looks like it was a false alarm.usmarine2 wrote:
Is someone haxing the site?
(though I do still need to finish off some scans of my system to make 100% sure I'm not infected with something)
Here is a concrete example of how white privilege works in the US regardless of social station:
http://hr.blr.com/news.aspx?id=19451
EDIT: While I'm sure the above perceptions outlined in the study have lessened over time, imagine how prevalent they would have been even 20 years ago, let alone when Jim Crow laws were finally done away with in the 1960s. The effects are lasting and it takes time to change perceptions. It's why here in 2008 you take it as given that Black culture is mostly about bullshit and laziness. As though the idolization of rappers and athletes is what Black people are all about.
Despite what you might say, those statement really indicate only the most superficial and fleeting experience with Black America. Not necessarily an indication of racism, but definitely of ignorance.
http://hr.blr.com/news.aspx?id=19451
And: http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=175535Employers that perform criminal background checks generally hire more black workers than employers that don't conduct background checks, according to a study in the current issue of the Journal of Law and Economics.
...
"The results are consistent with the proposition that in the absence of a criminal background check, employers use race to infer past criminal activity, especially employers with a strong stated aversion to hiring ex-offenders," write Harry J. Holzer (Georgetown Public Policy Institute), Steven Raphael (University of California, Berkeley), and Michael A. Stoll (University of California, Los Angeles).
For the study, the researchers used a survey of more than 3,000 establishments in Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, and Los Angeles. The researchers concluded that employers that perform criminal background checks are more likely to hire black applicants than those who do not, even when adjusting for proximity to black residential neighborhoods and proportion of black applicants.
...
The researchers also found a similar pattern among workers with gaps in their employment history.
"Combined, these results suggest that in the absence of background checks, employers use race, gaps in employment history, and other perceived correlates of criminal activity to assess the likelihood of an applicant's previous felony convictions and factor such assessments into the hiring decision," the researchers write.
The journal is published by the University of Chicago. You can read the study here.
According to the US Census Bureau in 2006 there were almost 3 million young Black students enrolled in college or university courses (total black population is ~30 million) and yet so many here on this forum take it as a given that Black youth in general idolize the "ghetto" lifestyle or aspire to be nothing more than some entertainer or athlete. The same who rant endlessly about how they never got a hand up in life with no realization that those same perceptions don't exist in a vacuum and have real effects for hiring.Devah Pager, a sociologist at Northwestern University in Evanston, Ill., sent equally matched pairs of testers - two black and two white - to apply for low-skilled jobs at 350 places of employment in the Milwaukee area and found that white ex-offenders were more likely to be called back for an interview than black applicants who had no criminal record.
...
White men without criminal records fared the best in the Milwaukee-area job market, with 34% receiving callbacks from employers.
...
Still, employers are averse to taking risks on black applicants, whom they perceive to have criminal tendencies, the study says. For example, black testers were more likely to be asked by employers whether they had any convictions, yet none of the white testers were asked about their criminal histories up front.
...
But the question remains: How do we attack a problem that so affects the economic lives of black men in Milwaukee, where many employers still make hiring decisions colored by fear and misunderstanding?
EDIT: While I'm sure the above perceptions outlined in the study have lessened over time, imagine how prevalent they would have been even 20 years ago, let alone when Jim Crow laws were finally done away with in the 1960s. The effects are lasting and it takes time to change perceptions. It's why here in 2008 you take it as given that Black culture is mostly about bullshit and laziness. As though the idolization of rappers and athletes is what Black people are all about.
Despite what you might say, those statement really indicate only the most superficial and fleeting experience with Black America. Not necessarily an indication of racism, but definitely of ignorance.
Last edited by Masques (2008-06-23 18:24:50)
great post masques
Thanks. I also should have added that Blacks make up roughly double the proportion of the US military than they do in the population as a whole (around 30% vs. 14% of the population, ~2.4 million Black vets) and slightly more in the federal workforce (16.7%). 1.6 million have some advanced degree beyond a Baccalaureate Degree (MA, PhD, JD, MD, etc.) and 18% of Blacks are college graduates vs. 15% of Americans as a whole.God Save the Queen wrote:
great post masques
And yet despite all of this the perception still exists of dangerous negroes that only leave the deepest, darkest, ghettos to either shoot some hoops or sling dope.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 9#p2152309Masques wrote:
Thanks. I also should have added that Blacks make up roughly double the proportion of the US military than they do in the population as a whole (around 30% vs. 14% of the population, ~2.4 million Black vets) and slightly more in the federal workforce (16.7%). 1.6 million have some advanced degree beyond a Baccalaureate Degree (MA, PhD, JD, MD, etc.) and 18% of Blacks are college graduates vs. 15% of Americans as a whole.God Save the Queen wrote:
great post masques
And yet despite all of this the perception still exists of dangerous negroes that only leave the deepest, darkest, ghettos to either shoot some hoops or sling dope.
What is ironic is the picture of Mitch wearing a do-rag with his hat turned sideways. I'm sure he picked that look up from an old Spaghetti Western.
Dat muhfucka Lee Van Cleef be gangsta'.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 9#p2152309Masques wrote:
Thanks. I also should have added that Blacks make up roughly double the proportion of the US military than they do in the population as a whole (around 30% vs. 14% of the population, ~2.4 million Black vets) and slightly more in the federal workforce (16.7%). 1.6 million have some advanced degree beyond a Baccalaureate Degree (MA, PhD, JD, MD, etc.) and 18% of Blacks are college graduates vs. 15% of Americans as a whole.God Save the Queen wrote:
great post masques
And yet despite all of this the perception still exists of dangerous negroes that only leave the deepest, darkest, ghettos to either shoot some hoops or sling dope.
What is ironic is the picture of Mitch wearing a do-rag with his hat turned sideways. I'm sure he picked that look up from an old Spaghetti Western.
I don't understand what you expect from black people when you perpetuate the cycle. When you raise a child to think that "darker skinned people make different choices (referring to criminal ones) because of how they feel as darker skinned people" she is going to treat black people with that bias. That does NOT work towards the solution. If I were a black person, white people raising their children to think that black people make criminal choices because of how they feel as blacks would not encourage me to start acting like a good, law abiding, polite person. Honestly, it would probably piss me the hell off and make me want to be that "punk-ass gangster" who walks in front of your car. Why do you expect them to treat you with respect when you encourage bias and racism against them?IRONCHEF wrote:
True, and I apologize. I actually didn't use those words. I believe it was more subtle, less bigoted, etc. It may have been along the lines of "..alot of the people with dark skin around here make different choices because of the way they are raised by their mommies and daddies. They also make different choices because of how they feel as people with dark skin." She actually doesn't call them black, she called them people with darker skin..so I used that language with her. She sees her mommy and daddy get pissed at the little punk-ass gangster kids who walk in front of cars on busy streets staring them down challenging drivers, and she hears some of our epithets so she's aware that it's more than just the ones she sees on the curb being interviewed in cuffs and in the squad cars. Sadly, we have shootings often in our neighborhood almost weekly..including a homicide last wednesday (one of these probably.) And also, whenever we have to explain racially sensitive things to our little ones, we make sure to heavily reinforce the reality that skin color, reference to skin color in terms of negative things, etc are not what define people. ONe of her best friends is a nice little boy who's black and we say things like "..and while many of the bad people the police catch are black, there's just as many good people who are black like your friend Khalil." Sounds weird typing it here, but it resonates well when spoken to a child.Braddock wrote:
I know it is not easy to explain the intricate workings of American, interracial society to a child but if you tell a child there is "something wrong with the way black people live" you are helping to shape an inherent racial prejudice that will be very hard for them to shake in later life. Why not tell the kid that there are a lot of poor people in many black neighbourhoods and because of that there is a lot of crime. That way she can still judge each black person on their own merits without having an inbuilt belief that they have lived a bad kind of lifestyle.IRONCHEF wrote:
Only read a few pages and decided I'd only address the OP since i'd go nuts arguing with people here.
My daughter, when she was 5, wondered why it was always black people in police cars, on tv getting caught or being hunted, etc. Knowing it actually wasn't just a simple bias in reporting, or otherwise disparity unfairly parading blacks as the crime leaders..I attempted to tell her that 1) People of all colors and backgrounds commit crimes (we call them "breaking police rules"). 2) We even played devil's advocate and said that it's usually the white people who start fires and do crimes against children..and we even tried to explain what a serial criminal was and added white people to that category as the leader. But in the end, we had to admit that while there's nothing wrong with black people being black, but there was something wrong with "the way they live" (easiest way to explain how black culture is crap).
And honestly, that's my only answer. "Black Culture" is 99% of the reason blacks are the predominant criminals. And Ken's stats on page one don't mean jack since it's total numbers on welfare, not % of an entire race reported...which I'm sure falls heavily on blacks..and for that, I blame their culture...since we know blacks are just as smart, capable, and devoted as any other race in regards to financial and educational success.
Not referring just to Ironchef, but why do some white people in general feel like it's black people who need to shape up and start being more respectful? We all learned in school (or maybe not) that the golden rule was to treat people how you want to be treated. When you harbor these racist ideas, why do you think black people are going to go the extra mile to win your respect? If anyone should be doing that, it should be white people reaching out to blacks considering we (legally) treated them like animals as recently as 50 years ago.
Cam, I have read every little arrogant ass word of yours, and I disagree with it......I work side by side with black people, I have black people that are my bosses, I do banking where I have asked a black loan officer for a loan, I shop at stores where the store managers are black.....I have seen black cops, black firemen, black doctors, black lawyers, black judges, and now even a black presidential candidate.........So stop telling me that is anything other than individual attitude that keeps people down. IF, ANYONE wnats to make it in America, the opportunities are there. Stop blaming white America for your problems already, it is an old excuse that is no longer being accepted.CameronPoe wrote:
lol. Incapable of simple reading comprehension I see. Nowhere, not in any post ever in this thread or others, did I state separate standards should apply to different races within America. Please direct me to said post and we can proceed from there. You are incapable of differentiating a logical explanation of the situation from advocating some position regarding positive discrimination. I am stating why crime is more prevalent amongst blacks - BECAUSE OF THE DISADVANTAGES THEY INHERITED, THE RELATIVELY SHORT SPACE OF TIME SINCE EMANCIPATION, THE DIFFICULTY IN BREAKING OUT OF THE POVERTY CYCLE and numerous other reasons already expounded upon. I am stating plainly obvious facts you seem not to be able to comprehend. Neither of us are sociologists but I would expect most to grasp the rudiments of what we're talking about here. If you're going to post then post in response to things people actually say rather than stuff you dream up in your little head. Is plain written English that difficult for you?lowing wrote:
Ohhh you excel at everything, no wonder you are such an arrogant little fuck.....You may not understand this Cam, but I was referring to something a little more from a family than just food and water.... We were talking about upbringing, not fucking survival. So why don't you stow your dramatics and stick to addressing what I have posted, instead of trying to tell me how lucky I am. I already know how lucky I am, the only difference is, I worked for my luck, and I expect everyone else to do the same, while you are willing to excuse people from their personal obligations to themselves, their families and society, because their GGG Grandfather had a tough life.
You call me a racist, when all I do is hold EVERYONE to the same standard....When you insist on 2 seporate standards, one for blacks and one for whites....I am about equality, I am sorry if I insist white people are included in that equality in todays world. I do not owe anyone anyrthing. and I will not apologize for being white.
I have never blamed race on anything, I charge individuals for their own actions. I defy you, to show me anywhere in the history of this forum where I have stated otherwise. Do not confuse the fact that I will not accept white people as the reason for personal failure.
PS Nice hypocrisy: spout on about your own 'achievements' and then throw a childish tantrum when someone responds in kind...
I would venture to say the REAL sufferers of bondage, and black Americans that endured pre-civil rights America are rolling over in their graves as to prospect of how their legacy has been exploited.
No hypocrisy Cam, you asked me some questions, and I answered them. I did not spout off about 'My achievements". I most certainly did not ask about yours.....I have said before that I have tried things and failed....The difference is, I accept responsibility for that. I am not blaming whitey for it. Although I guess if I were black, you would support me in doing so.
Also, I didn't throw a childish tantrum, I merely pointed out an obvious fact........You ARE an arrogant little cuss.
Given that you have so much exposure to successful black people I find your racism surprising. Let's not forget your earlier quote:lowing wrote:
Cam, I have read every little arrogant ass word of yours, and I disagree with it......I work side by side with black people, I have black people that are my bosses, I do banking where I have asked a black loan officer for a loan, I shop at stores where the store managers are black.....I have seen black cops, black firemen, black doctors, black lawyers, black judges, and now even a black presidential candidate.........So stop telling me that is anything other than individual attitude that keeps people down. IF, ANYONE wnats to make it in America, the opportunities are there. Stop blaming white America for your problems already, it is an old excuse that is no longer being accepted.
"It is the attitude that if you succeed, and actually build a life for yourself, you are an Uncle Tom, who sold out to the white man......It is the hero worship of hoodlums and gang bangers and hip hop killa cop rap artists, instead of successful roll models, like black astronauts, doctors, judges, cops, firemen, entrapenures...etc...........All of these people sold out to whitey in their eyes and are shunned.... It is better to be victim of the white man's oppression so you have an excuse to be a failure, rather than get off your ass and take responsibility for yourself........Just like all of those "Uncle Tom's""
Possibly one of the most racist comments I've heard in recent times. Characterising blacks as some kind of good-for-nothing pack of wasters - completely and utterly at odds with your comment on all the great black people you 'work alongside'. Facts are facts. I will not argue with eminent professors of sociology, extensive academic studies and papers outlining exactly why it is not realistic or feasible to expect many black people to have broken the poverty cycle in which they found themselves upon emancipation. You can disagree with the facts but you will be in the position of 'the whole world is insane and I'm the only sane person' as opposed to the opposite.
I would venture to say otherwise.lowing wrote:
I would venture to say the REAL sufferers of bondage, and black Americans that endured pre-civil rights America are rolling over in their graves as to prospect of how their legacy has been exploited.
You see in debate lowing one generally responds in kind: 'slings and arrows' sob story for my own.lowinw wrote:
No hypocrisy Cam, you asked me some questions, and I answered them. I did not spout off about 'My achievements". I most certainly did not ask about yours.....I have said before that I have tried things and failed....The difference is, I accept responsibility for that. I am not blaming whitey for it. Although I guess if I were black, you would support me in doing so.
Also, I didn't throw a childish tantrum, I merely pointed out an obvious fact........You ARE an arrogant little cuss.
As for the tantrum, perhaps you need to focus more on the facts presented in my posts rather than the manner in which they're presented because the quality of your retorts are letting you down.
Let's get this through your thick skull, because you evidently don't get it:
PEOPLE REMAIN IN THE POVERTY CYCLE, BLACK OR WHITE, FOR THE EXACT SAME REASONS. WHITEY CURRENTLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. WHITEY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MOST BLACKS STARTING OFF IN THE POVERTY CYCLE, NOT ALL THAT LONG AGO. YOUR SINGLE SOLITARY EXAMPLE IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE MAIN. THANK YOUR PARENTS FOR THAT.
Now if you can't get that 'clear as day' non-justification simple fact analysis of reality, as evident through the application of logic and the reading of sociological studies then I'm afraid you don't belong in a debate forum.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-24 00:53:19)
So you are going to tell me that successful black people are NOT viewed as sell outs by people in the black community that have not achieved their own American dream? YOu are telling me that the black people that have not achieved are blaming themselves and not the establishment?CameronPoe wrote:
Given that you have so much exposure to successful black people I find your racism surprising. Let's not forget your earlier quote:lowing wrote:
Cam, I have read every little arrogant ass word of yours, and I disagree with it......I work side by side with black people, I have black people that are my bosses, I do banking where I have asked a black loan officer for a loan, I shop at stores where the store managers are black.....I have seen black cops, black firemen, black doctors, black lawyers, black judges, and now even a black presidential candidate.........So stop telling me that is anything other than individual attitude that keeps people down. IF, ANYONE wnats to make it in America, the opportunities are there. Stop blaming white America for your problems already, it is an old excuse that is no longer being accepted.
"It is the attitude that if you succeed, and actually build a life for yourself, you are an Uncle Tom, who sold out to the white man......It is the hero worship of hoodlums and gang bangers and hip hop killa cop rap artists, instead of successful roll models, like black astronauts, doctors, judges, cops, firemen, entrapenures...etc...........All of these people sold out to whitey in their eyes and are shunned.... It is better to be victim of the white man's oppression so you have an excuse to be a failure, rather than get off your ass and take responsibility for yourself........Just like all of those "Uncle Tom's""
Possibly one of the most racist comments I've heard in recent times. Characterising blacks as some kind of good-for-nothing pack of wasters - completely and utterly at odds with your comment on all the great black people you 'work alongside'. Facts are facts. I will not argue with eminent professors of sociology, extensive academic studies and papers outlining exactly why it is not realistic or feasible to expect many black people to have broken the poverty cycle in which they found themselves upon emancipation. You can disagree with the facts but you will be in the position of 'the whole world is insane and I'm the only sane person' as opposed to the opposite.I would venture to say otherwise.lowing wrote:
I would venture to say the REAL sufferers of bondage, and black Americans that endured pre-civil rights America are rolling over in their graves as to prospect of how their legacy has been exploited.You see in debate lowing one generally responds in kind: 'slings and arrows' sob story for my own.lowinw wrote:
No hypocrisy Cam, you asked me some questions, and I answered them. I did not spout off about 'My achievements". I most certainly did not ask about yours.....I have said before that I have tried things and failed....The difference is, I accept responsibility for that. I am not blaming whitey for it. Although I guess if I were black, you would support me in doing so.
Also, I didn't throw a childish tantrum, I merely pointed out an obvious fact........You ARE an arrogant little cuss.
As for the tantrum, perhaps you need to focus more on the facts presented in my posts rather than the manner in which they're presented because the quality of your retorts are letting you down.
Let's get this through your thick skull, because you evidently don't get it:
PEOPLE REMAIN IN THE POVERTY CYCLE, BLACK OR WHITE, FOR THE EXACT SAME REASONS. WHITEY CURRENTLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. WHITEY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MOST BLACKS STARTING OFF IN THE POVERTY CYCLE, NOT ALL THAT LONG AGO. YOUR SINGLE SOLITARY EXAMPLE IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE MAIN. THANK YOUR PARENTS FOR THAT.
Now if you can't get that 'clear as day' non-justification simple fact analysis of reality, as evident through the application of logic and the reading of sociological studies then I'm afraid you don't belong in a debate forum.
I have not once characterized black people as you say I have discribed them...I alreadly told you, I charactorize lazy people. I put the burdon of responsibility on each and every individual, regardless of race...That is something you can't seem to get through your thick skull.
I'm not black. Perhaps you need to ask some of the black members of our forum whether your rather racist generalisation holds or not. Educated black people and newer generations of black people aspire to more I would imagine. Those that have not escaped the poverty cycle, like white trash, have to fight against an anti-social culture: it's not a preserve of skin type.lowing wrote:
So you are going to tell me that successful black people are NOT viewed as sell outs by people in the black community that have not achieved their own American dream? YOu are telling me that the black people that have not achieved are blaming themselves and not the establishment?
I have not once characterized black people as you say I have discribed them...I alreadly told you, I charactorize lazy people. I put the burdon of responsibility on each and every individual, regardless of race...That is something you can't seem to get through your thick skull.
You need to get off your off-topic 'personal responsibility' obsession for a fucking moment. Stating the obvious repeatedly does not answer the question posed by the OP. I have answered that. You can't seem to acknowledge the fact that breaking the poverty cycle TAKES TIME AND EDUCATION. People need to learn personal responsibility, it doesn't just magically zap into your head while you're sitting in your ghetto watching your parents shoot up. It's an intergenerational problem, as acknowledged by sociologists, as distinct from race: white trash and blacks have the same problem, blacks moreso than whites because of their inherited position on the lowest rung of the ladder.
You can create another thread to rant away about whatever it is you want to rant about on the 'personal responsibility' front.
The question remains: Why are there vastly more impoverished blacks than white trash?
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-24 01:46:29)