If you endangered myself or my family, I would open fire. Otherwise, I'd just call 911 and let the police take care of things. Notice I did not say it was ok for a soldier to shoot the Koran. The statement that it was a crime is what I scoffed at.Spearhead wrote:
I don't think that's what would happen.Stingray24 wrote:
If you did that, I'd think you need to get a hobby instead of wasting so much energy and ammo trying to offend me. I wouldn't demand an apology either. Why must you be an ass?Spearhead wrote:
Stingray, let me ask you.
If I walked up to your house, standing on the lawn, and opened fire open the Holy bible, you wouldnt be the LEAST bit offended?
Fucking hypocrite.
You see, the problem here is that we're on THEIR soil and one of our guys fucking SHOT a symbol of their faith.
If I WALKED onto your property, RIGHT NOW, and opened fire on the holy Bible, I'd think you'd open fire on me. And I wouldnt blame you for doing it. But for you to say its ok for an American in Iraq to shoot the Koran is just unbelievable. Dozens of Americans will probably be killed by insurgents because of the fuckhead. Its about the hearts and minds.
I have to agree with Stingray that to call it a crime is sad.
On the other hand, I agree with Spearhead that it was a really stupid thing to do given the situation we face in Iraq.
But... overall, this incident is just another reminder of how feebleminded so much of the Islamic World really is. They really need to modernize, but it's going to take a long time.
On the other hand, I agree with Spearhead that it was a really stupid thing to do given the situation we face in Iraq.
But... overall, this incident is just another reminder of how feebleminded so much of the Islamic World really is. They really need to modernize, but it's going to take a long time.
In an Islamic country desecrating the Quran IS a criminal offence. Ever heard of the expression "When in Rome do as the Romans do"?Stingray24 wrote:
If you endangered myself or my family, I would open fire. Otherwise, I'd just call 911 and let the police take care of things. Notice I did not say it was ok for a soldier to shoot the Koran. The statement that it was a crime is what I scoffed at.Spearhead wrote:
I don't think that's what would happen.Stingray24 wrote:
If you did that, I'd think you need to get a hobby instead of wasting so much energy and ammo trying to offend me. I wouldn't demand an apology either. Why must you be an ass?
You see, the problem here is that we're on THEIR soil and one of our guys fucking SHOT a symbol of their faith.
If I WALKED onto your property, RIGHT NOW, and opened fire on the holy Bible, I'd think you'd open fire on me. And I wouldnt blame you for doing it. But for you to say its ok for an American in Iraq to shoot the Koran is just unbelievable. Dozens of Americans will probably be killed by insurgents because of the fuckhead. Its about the hearts and minds.
You people need to learn more about Islam than just outside Al Qaeda and cartoons.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
I don't doubt that, method, which is why I assumed it actually was a crime in Iraq. It doesn't change the fact that, since so much of the Islamic World doesn't have the freedom of speech, the people are oppressed by both government and religion.
Wouldn't you agree that most Muslims would live better under secular, free states where blasphemy is allowed (even if it might disgust you)?
Wouldn't you agree that most Muslims would live better under secular, free states where blasphemy is allowed (even if it might disgust you)?
I would say the Islamic world is oppressed by governments/royal dynasties USING religion.Turquoise wrote:
I don't doubt that, method, which is why I assumed it actually was a crime in Iraq. It doesn't change the fact that, since so much of the Islamic World doesn't have the freedom of speech, the people are oppressed by both government and religion.
Wouldn't you agree that most Muslims would live better under secular, free states where blasphemy is allowed (even if it might disgust you)?
Yes of course Muslims would live better under a free state. But the concept of blasphemy within Islam is is not tolerable to Muslims under any context.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
these Muslims people need to grow up. Someone offends them and they fucking riot and bitch. What bullshit. Shure it was wrong, but we shouldn't be pussies and start kissing their ass. If the shit you describe did happen. No one aplolgises, no one riots, its not a international incedent with threats from the pope and flag buring in the streets. Its not the same thing. Islam is the problem. Therir extremisim is the problemSpearhead wrote:
I don't think that's what would happen.Stingray24 wrote:
If you did that, I'd think you need to get a hobby instead of wasting so much energy and ammo trying to offend me. I wouldn't demand an apology either. Why must you be an ass?Spearhead wrote:
Stingray, let me ask you.
If I walked up to your house, standing on the lawn, and opened fire open the Holy bible, you wouldn't be the LEAST bit offended?
Fucking hypocrite.
You see, the problem here is that we're on THEIR soil and one of our guys fucking SHOT a symbol of their faith.
If I WALKED onto your property, RIGHT NOW, and opened fire on the holy Bible, I'd think you'd open fire on me. And I wouldn't blame you for doing it. But for you to say its OK for an American in Iraq to shoot the Koran is just unbelievable. Dozens of Americans will probably be killed by insurgents because of the fuckhead. Its about the hearts and minds.
Oh shit, here comes a riot, i insulted islam
What crap.
I'm sure the more moderate and reformist Muslims would be able to deal with it. There was a time when Christianity felt the same way about blasphemy. Over time, Christianity evolved to accept free speech, and eventually, Islam probably will.m3thod wrote:
I would say the Islamic world is oppressed by governments/royal dynasties USING religion.Turquoise wrote:
I don't doubt that, method, which is why I assumed it actually was a crime in Iraq. It doesn't change the fact that, since so much of the Islamic World doesn't have the freedom of speech, the people are oppressed by both government and religion.
Wouldn't you agree that most Muslims would live better under secular, free states where blasphemy is allowed (even if it might disgust you)?
Yes of course Muslims would live better under a free state. But the concept of blasphemy within Islam is is not tolerable to Muslims under any context.
To be honest, such an evolution is for the good of Muslims, because if they continue to get fired up over blasphemy, they'll only further alienate themselves from the West. Considering the West has the biggest guns and some of us are more than willing to use them, it's best that we remain friends.
Mkay. I agree, shooting a book is not a crime at all.
But lets look at the big picture. If you want to stay in Iraq, and be successful in achieving peace, then should you not (as method said) do as the Iraqis do? If not, why the hell are we there? Maybe we could just give Iraq to Iran and Turkey and the other bordering states and help them fight al-Qaeda. If al-Qaeda in Iraq is the ONLY reason we're there now, surely there must be a more efficient way of dealing with it, right?
But lets look at the big picture. If you want to stay in Iraq, and be successful in achieving peace, then should you not (as method said) do as the Iraqis do? If not, why the hell are we there? Maybe we could just give Iraq to Iran and Turkey and the other bordering states and help them fight al-Qaeda. If al-Qaeda in Iraq is the ONLY reason we're there now, surely there must be a more efficient way of dealing with it, right?
It thinking like yours that has made the occupation a farce.dark110 wrote:
these Muslims people need to grow up. Someone offends them and they fucking riot and bitch. What bullshit. Sure it was wrong, but we shouldn't be pussies and start kissing their ass. If the shit you describe did happen. No one apologises, no one riots, its not a international incident with threats from the pope and flag burning in the streets. Its not the same thing. Islam is the problem. Their extremism is the problemSpearhead wrote:
I don't think that's what would happen.Stingray24 wrote:
If you did that, I'd think you need to get a hobby instead of wasting so much energy and ammo trying to offend me. I wouldn't demand an apology either. Why must you be an ass?
You see, the problem here is that we're on THEIR soil and one of our guys fucking SHOT a symbol of their faith.
If I WALKED onto your property, RIGHT NOW, and opened fire on the holy Bible, I'd think you'd open fire on me. And I wouldn't blame you for doing it. But for you to say its OK for an American in Iraq to shoot the Koran is just unbelievable. Dozens of Americans will probably be killed by insurgents because of the fuckhead. Its about the hearts and minds.
Oh shit, here comes a riot, i insulted Islam
What crap.
American forces fight alongside Iraqis. How can an Iraqi fight alongside someone who desecrates what he/she believes in? That general who apologised knows they need the intrinsic knowledge of the indigenous population, from their knowledge of the cities/land to local customs, local languages and tribal traditions to have any chance to defeat a faceless enemy who has an ability to melt into the civilian population.
Wanna know how to really get a Muslim riled? Tell him what that occupying infidel did to Allah's word.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Very true, but the flipside to that is that Muslims need to learn how to adapt to modern free speech. I realize that we can't realistically expect them to embrace our freedoms at face value, which is why being respectful to Islam is important while we are in Iraq.m3thod wrote:
It thinking like yours that has made the occupation a farce.
American forces fight alongside Iraqis. How can an Iraqi fight alongside someone who desecrates what he/she believes in? That general who apologised knows they need the intrinsic knowledge of the indigenous population, from their knowledge of the cities/land to local customs, local languages and tribal traditions to have any chance to defeat a faceless enemy who has an ability to melt into the civilian population.
Wanna know how to really get a Muslim riled? Tell him what that occupying infidel did to Allah's word.
At the same time, however, we have good reason to be resentful of how the Islamic World expects us to be respectful while they aren't very respectful toward non-Muslims. For example, look at how non-Muslims are treated in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia.
The ultimate point here is that the Islamic World needs a reality check. If they want respect, they must return it. They must also eventually realize that freedom of speech exists in a lot of the world, and if it happens to send blasphemy their way, they should find a mature way of dealing with it.
There is a massive difference here. The American liberation was forced upon the Muslims/people of Iraq and hence the onus is on the Americans to adapt to the cultural values of the country they occupy. It is highly evident that this is a pipe dream, and these events occur on a regular basis. It doesn't take much to destroy the hard work and gains that have been achieved especially by the asshole who could have choose a better shooting target. fact is good news travels like a wounded slug and bad news spreads like wildfire, so this apology would have calmed the anger of the tribal leaders, but it wont mean shit to the radicals who will be ranting and raving from the rooftops about this.Turquoise wrote:
Very true, but the flipside to that is that Muslims need to learn how to adapt to modern free speech. I realize that we can't realistically expect them to embrace our freedoms at face value, which is why being respectful to Islam is important while we are in Iraq.m3thod wrote:
It thinking like yours that has made the occupation a farce.
American forces fight alongside Iraqis. How can an Iraqi fight alongside someone who desecrates what he/she believes in? That general who apologised knows they need the intrinsic knowledge of the indigenous population, from their knowledge of the cities/land to local customs, local languages and tribal traditions to have any chance to defeat a faceless enemy who has an ability to melt into the civilian population.
Wanna know how to really get a Muslim riled? Tell him what that occupying infidel did to Allah's word.
At the same time, however, we have good reason to be resentful of how the Islamic World expects us to be respectful while they aren't very respectful toward non-Muslims. For example, look at how non-Muslims are treated in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia.
The ultimate point here is that the Islamic World needs a reality check. If they want respect, they must return it. They must also eventually realize that freedom of speech exists in a lot of the world, and if it happens to send blasphemy their way, they should find a mature way of dealing with it.
There is easy solution to the Saudi and Iran problem. If you feel you can't adapt to the cultural expectations of the host country, don't go. I'm not. Not ever. I like my lifestyle in the west. Do the same.
And lastly respect is a double edge sword. They muslims don't perceive the West as respectful people what with the cartoons and these invasions and not to mention assisting in the oppression of the Palestinians. There is a lot of work to be done by both sides.
Last edited by m3thod (2008-05-18 14:33:05)
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Good points, but I don't think we'll ever appease the radicals, which is why we generally kill them instead.m3thod wrote:
There is a massive difference here. The American liberation was forced upon the Muslims/people of Iraq and hence the onus is on the Americans to adapt to the cultural values of the country they occupy. It is highly evident that this is a pipe dream, and these events occur on a regular basis. It doesn't take much to destroy the hard work and gains that have been achieved especially by the asshole who could have choose a better shooting target. fact is good news travels like a wounded slug and bad news spreads like wildfire, so this apology would have calmed the anger of the tribal leaders, but it wont mean shit to the radicals who will be ranting and raving from the rooftops about this.
There is indeed a burden for us to adapt to the cultural norms of Iraq, but I don't see anything wrong with slowly forcing them to change as well. Democracy wasn't exactly a cultural norm for the Iraqi people, but they seem to like it.
Absolutely, I don't ever plan on visiting the Middle East. I think we should get out of Iraq as soon as possible, and we need to end our dependency on foreign oil so that we don't go to war there anymore.m3thod wrote:
There is easy solution to the Saudi and Iran problem. If you feel you can't adapt to the cultural expectations of the host country, don't go. I'm not. Not ever. I like my lifestyle in the west. Do the same.
Agreed, but self-righteousness isn't going to help the Islamic World, and despite all of the West's flaws, I'd say we're more willing to accommodate them than they are willing to for us. We've shown that we have an interest in cultural progression, but I don't see much of that coming from the Middle East or Pakistan. Turkey and Egypt seem to be making some progress, however.m3thod wrote:
And lastly respect is a double edge sword. They muslims don't perceive the West as respectful people what with the cartoons and these invasions and not to mention assisting in the oppression of the Palestinians. There is a lot of work to be done by both sides.
We aren't allowed to shoot their 'holy' book, but they can send 10 year olds strapped with suicide vests towards us and blow us the fuck up?
Well unless you think that we or most people in Iraq allow or condone those actions I can't see any even remote logic here. Also 'they' the people who strap bombs to kids and 'they' the people who don't want soldiers to shoot their holy book are very different people. It's like equating Charles Manson to being an average American.Ryan wrote:
We aren't allowed to shoot their 'holy' book, but they can send 10 year olds strapped with suicide vests towards us and blow us the fuck up?
I see the word "appease" coming up a lot in this thread. Does anyone really thing that not doing outlandish things to infuriate them is the same as appeasement? Appeasement is bowing to silly demands because of fear or some overwhelming desire to avoid conflict. Deciding not to draw in a book they value more than their own lives and then shoot it is pretty far removed from appeasing them.
Someone else mentioned this earlier, but it really is about hearts and minds.
Someone else mentioned this earlier, but it really is about hearts and minds.
And do tell why they need to do this? Was that one of the objectives of the invasion, to get them to accept that destroying their holy book is an acceptable form of free speech?Turquoise wrote:
Very true, but the flipside to that is that Muslims need to learn how to adapt to modern free speech. I realize that we can't realistically expect them to embrace our freedoms at face value, which is why being respectful to Islam is important while we are in Iraq.m3thod wrote:
It thinking like yours that has made the occupation a farce.
American forces fight alongside Iraqis. How can an Iraqi fight alongside someone who desecrates what he/she believes in? That general who apologised knows they need the intrinsic knowledge of the indigenous population, from their knowledge of the cities/land to local customs, local languages and tribal traditions to have any chance to defeat a faceless enemy who has an ability to melt into the civilian population.
Wanna know how to really get a Muslim riled? Tell him what that occupying infidel did to Allah's word.
At the same time, however, we have good reason to be resentful of how the Islamic World expects us to be respectful while they aren't very respectful toward non-Muslims. For example, look at how non-Muslims are treated in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia.
The ultimate point here is that the Islamic World needs a reality check. If they want respect, they must return it. They must also eventually realize that freedom of speech exists in a lot of the world, and if it happens to send blasphemy their way, they should find a mature way of dealing with it.
How about the Muslims that use children for target practice? Or is that allowed because they are infidels? Infact is there anything that does not offend Islam?
Guess not.
Guess not.
No... it wasn't the goal of our invasion. I think we can agree that invading Iraq wasn't exactly done for the right intentions...ghettoperson wrote:
And do tell why they need to do this? Was that one of the objectives of the invasion, to get them to accept that destroying their holy book is an acceptable form of free speech?Turquoise wrote:
Very true, but the flipside to that is that Muslims need to learn how to adapt to modern free speech. I realize that we can't realistically expect them to embrace our freedoms at face value, which is why being respectful to Islam is important while we are in Iraq.
At the same time, however, we have good reason to be resentful of how the Islamic World expects us to be respectful while they aren't very respectful toward non-Muslims. For example, look at how non-Muslims are treated in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia.
The ultimate point here is that the Islamic World needs a reality check. If they want respect, they must return it. They must also eventually realize that freedom of speech exists in a lot of the world, and if it happens to send blasphemy their way, they should find a mature way of dealing with it.
What I'm saying is more of a general statement. Even if we hadn't invaded Iraq, Muslims with internet and mass media would still be faced with blasphemy from the West. Look at what happened with the youtube fiasco when Pakistan effectively took down their servers because of blasphemy.
The problem is that we live in a smaller world than before with media that travels all the way across the world in a matter of minutes. It's inevitable that Muslim nations will be exposed to things that offend them. They need to accept this and tolerate things like free speech, because we're not going to just give in because they don't like it. At least, America isn't going to.
The point is, it would be a good move for the Islamic World to move towards free speech in their own countries in order to adjust to being offended. The rest of us have, and now it's their turn. Any reasonable adult should be capable of making this transition. Those who can't obviously have mental problems.
And when you think about it... if they don't adapt to all this and continue to get bent out of shape, they're not going to have a very pleasant future against a hawkish United States. They may choose to fight us all they like, but despite our scars, it's pretty obvious we could destroy any true threat to us.
I'm not saying it makes it right, but you don't fuck with the "sleeping giant." Even Islamic history shows how might works. Mohammed himself spread his faith through conquest, and thankfully, the U.S. isn't nearly as warlike as Mohammed was, but if enough terrorist attacks occur, we might become a lot more bellicose.
This is just the nature of the world. Simply put, being reasonable about the freedom of speech and accepting blasphemy seem like a small price to pay vs. getting the shit bombed out of you because you decided to commit a terror act against a very powerful military force.
The hearts and minds of the moderate majority I keep hearing about?chittydog wrote:
Someone else mentioned this earlier, but it really is about hearts and minds.
I think you all need to stop thinking that you should disrespect them because they disrespect you.
What you need to understand is that respecting customs and beliefs of the Iraqi people (in this case) is beneficial to YOU. Soldiers can hate Iraqis, soldiers can hate Islam, fine - its their right. But in that case they should atleast fake it. Because they need their help and because they fight shoulder to shoulder with the Iraqis. Also its just giving extremist more material for their propaganda.
Who ever thinks that current war is about military superiority is plain old stupid. If it was, than the war would be over a long time ago considering one side has the most advanced and deadly military this world has ever seen, and the other side has AKs and RPGs.
The war can only be won by strategic and smart propaganda (and money), and that propaganda does not include disrespecting their beliefs to "teach them a lesson". You are not less of a man if you respect people who partially share the same religion and some customs with your enemy.
What you need to understand is that respecting customs and beliefs of the Iraqi people (in this case) is beneficial to YOU. Soldiers can hate Iraqis, soldiers can hate Islam, fine - its their right. But in that case they should atleast fake it. Because they need their help and because they fight shoulder to shoulder with the Iraqis. Also its just giving extremist more material for their propaganda.
Who ever thinks that current war is about military superiority is plain old stupid. If it was, than the war would be over a long time ago considering one side has the most advanced and deadly military this world has ever seen, and the other side has AKs and RPGs.
The war can only be won by strategic and smart propaganda (and money), and that propaganda does not include disrespecting their beliefs to "teach them a lesson". You are not less of a man if you respect people who partially share the same religion and some customs with your enemy.
Secular like the US government?Turquoise wrote:
Wouldn't you agree that most Muslims would live better under secular, free states where blasphemy is allowed (even if it might disgust you)?
I don't see why this is a story. One braindead douche bag, probably representative of a small minority of the US armed forces, uses a Q'uran for target practice. Big wow. This story making the headlinges is an example of CNN bias, equal and opposite to that of Fox.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-05-19 01:10:27)
wasn't Iraq a secular Muslim country before they were massacred and now don't they have a puppet religious government?ZombieVampire! wrote:
Secular like the US government?Turquoise wrote:
Wouldn't you agree that most Muslims would live better under secular, free states where blasphemy is allowed (even if it might disgust you)?
The potential wider repercussions that will emanate from the the actual ill thought out event. And not to mention many seem to have the inability for many to grasp why this has consequences.CameronPoe wrote:
I don't see why this is a story. One braindead douche bag, probably representative of a small minority of the US armed forces, uses a Q'uran for target practice. Big wow. This story making the headlinges is an example of CNN bias, equal and opposite to that of Fox.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
I agree with you Chittydog. Not criminal, but pretty damn stupid. Inciting an already violent, volatile group of people is the last thing that our soldiers and civilians need. We don't want them to "bring it on," because them "bringing it on" has resulted in tens of thousands of deaths. Of course, can you blame them for already being so riled up when we've thrown their entire world upside down on economic and religious grounds?
We just need to get the fuck out of the middle east. I'm sick of this shit.
We just need to get the fuck out of the middle east. I'm sick of this shit.