Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6108|eXtreme to the maX
No links were found between Saddam Hussein and the al Qaeda terrorist network after a Pentagon-sponsored study looked at more than 600,000 Iraqi documents.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/world/story/451657.html
WASHINGTON -- An exhaustive review of more than 600,000 Iraqi documents that were captured after the 2003 U.S. invasion has found no evidence that Saddam Hussein's regime had any operational links with Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terrorist network.

The Pentagon-sponsored study, scheduled for release later this week, did confirm that Hussein's regime provided some support to other terrorist groups, particularly in the Middle East, U.S. officials told McClatchy. However, his security services were directed primarily against Iraqi exiles, Shiite Muslims, Kurds and others he considered his enemies.
The new study of the Iraqi ruler's archives found no documents indicating a ''direct operational link'' between Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda before the invasion, according to a U.S. official familiar with the report.
He and others spoke to McClatchy on condition of anonymity because the study isn't due to be shared with Congress and released before Wednesday.

President Bush and his aides used Hussein's alleged relationship with al Qaeda, along with Iraq's supposed weapons of mass destruction, as arguments for invading Iraq after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
Then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld claimed in September 2002 that the United States had ''bulletproof'' evidence of cooperation between the radical Islamist terror group and Hussein's secular dictatorship.

Then-Secretary of State Colin Powell cited multiple linkages between Hussein and al Qaeda in a watershed February 2003 speech to the United Nations Security Council to build international support for the invasion. Almost every one of the examples Powell cited turned out to be based on bogus or misinterpreted intelligence.
As recently as last July, Bush tried to tie al Qaeda to the ongoing violence in Iraq. ''The same people that attacked us on September the 11th is a crowd that is now bombing people, killing innocent men, women and children, many of whom are Muslims,'' he said.
The new study, entitled Saddam and Terrorism: Emerging Insights from Captured Iraqi Documents, was essentially completed last year and has been undergoing what one U.S. intelligence official described as a ''painful'' declassification review.

It was produced by a federally funded think tank, the Institute for Defense Analyses, under contract to the Norfolk, Va.-based U.S. Joint Forces Command.
Spokesmen for the Joint Forces Command declined to comment until the report is released. One of the report's authors, Kevin Woods, also declined to comment.
The issue of al Qaeda in Iraq already has played a role in the 2008 presidential campaign.
Sen. John McCain, the presumptive GOP nominee, mocked Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill, recently for saying he'd keep some U.S. troops in Iraq if al Qaeda established a base there.

''I have some news. Al Qaeda is in Iraq,'' McCain told supporters. Obama retorted that, ''There was no such thing as al Qaeda in Iraq until George Bush and John McCain decided to invade.'' (In fact, al Qaeda in Iraq didn't emerge until 2004, a year after the invasion.)
The new study appears destined to be used by both critics and supporters of the Iraq invasion to advance their own familiar arguments.
While the documents reveal no Hussein-al Qaeda links, they do show that Hussein and his underlings were willing to use terrorism against enemies of the regime and had ties to regional and global terrorist groups, the officials said.
However, the U.S. intelligence official played down the prospect of any major new revelations, saying, ``I don't think there's any surprises there.''
So if there was not a single shred of evidence linking Saddam to Al Qaeda why did Bush, Cheney etc keep telling us there was?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
KuSTaV
noice
+947|6513|Gold Coast
I guess it was just a theory at the time. IDK, CIA stuff-up?
And I also guess that because Iraq = Middle East + crazy dictator + (supposed) WMDs + hints of terrorism from WMDs  (+ revenge )
Im kinda guessing, dont ask me.
Also tl;dr.
noice                                                                                                        https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/26774/awsmsanta.png
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6583|SE London

Dilbert_X wrote:

So if there was not a single shred of evidence linking Saddam to Al Qaeda why did Bush, Cheney etc keep telling us there was?
'Cos they think the public are idiots. Fortunately for them, many of them are.
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6224|Brisneyland
I guess they are telling us that there was a terrorist link so that the 4000 good men that died there, and the billions of dollars spent on the war, dont look like they were wasted.

Terrorism sure is there now though.
Enzzenmachine
Member
+20|6347

Bertster7 wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

So if there was not a single shred of evidence linking Saddam to Al Qaeda why did Bush, Cheney etc keep telling us there was?
'Cos they think the public are idiots. Fortunately for them, many of them are.
sad, but true.

I btw read an article about that 1 week ago. Knowing that Saddam Hussein was laïc and a true dictator (aka blow the crap out of any other form of power besides his), that ain't really surprising eventually.

Burwhale the Avenger wrote:

Terrorism sure is there now though.
you're right bout that. Bush's administration ftw *sarcasm*

Last edited by Enzzenmachine (2008-03-24 05:16:31)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6108|eXtreme to the maX
I guess it was just a theory at the time. IDK, CIA stuff-up?
There is a bit of a difference between having a theory and 'bulletproof' evidence though.
Oops I forgot, you're a member of the public and don't need to trouble yourself about such trivial differences.

(Gold Coast was fun BTW )
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6447|The Land of Scott Walker
Since this isn't 2003, what should we do since they are there?
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6623|London, England
We opened the gates for them by invading for fuck-all reason, now we have to clean our own mess up. The U.S deathtoll passed 4,000 today. The Iraqi count is much higher, don't forget the other nations fighting. It all adds to the mess, now it has to be cleaned up. I feel sorry for the next U.S president, I don't think even 2 terms from the next U.S President will be able to clean it up.

I was against the Invasion, but I'm more against just leaving the place a mess and giving AQ another safe haven
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6447|The Land of Scott Walker

Mek-Izzle wrote:

I was against the Invasion, but I'm more against just leaving the place a mess and giving AQ another safe haven
Precisely my point.  The invasion is long over, so we need to form a strategy for how to get things done, instead of whining about 2003 ... again.
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6375|Kyiv, Ukraine

Dilbert_X wrote:

I guess it was just a theory at the time. IDK, CIA stuff-up?
There is a bit of a difference between having a theory and 'bulletproof' evidence though.
Oops I forgot, you're a member of the public and don't need to trouble yourself about such trivial differences.

(Gold Coast was fun BTW )
The real intelligence community never believed it.  This was a pure political spin job and has always been.  EVERY piece of "pre-war" evidence was cooked and run through Rummy's "Office of Special Intelligence" or whatever the hell they called it before being handed out for public consumption.  If the evidence was against their case, they would have multiple agencies submit reports on the same subject just so they could say "see, there's some confusion" or "some people found this!"...

Pre-war, all my fellow 98G's in the Arab specialties (98G/AD) were going "WTF?!?!?" each morning after a major news release.  None of us could figure out where the media and the admin spokespeople were getting their info.  It didn't ever match to anything we'd studied, analyzed, intercepted, or whatever since at least '96 when I started in the field.  To us at the time, the common knowledge was that most of Saddam's chemical program was buried since before Gulf War I and he'd been continuously castrated each time he tried to rebuild anything like it.  Saddam was pretty much a playboy in his later years.  His own people believed in his omnipotence and his "superweapon propoganda", but like a lot of things it was an illusion he built himself.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6531|Global Command

Stingray24 wrote:

Mek-Izzle wrote:

I was against the Invasion, but I'm more against just leaving the place a mess and giving AQ another safe haven
Precisely my point.  The invasion is long over, so we need to form a strategy for how to get things done, instead of whining about 2003 ... again.
Fair enough.
That means attacking Iran because they appear to be killing U.S. troops in Iraq.
Or do we just assume Bush is lying.
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6375|Kyiv, Ukraine

ATG wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Mek-Izzle wrote:

I was against the Invasion, but I'm more against just leaving the place a mess and giving AQ another safe haven
Precisely my point.  The invasion is long over, so we need to form a strategy for how to get things done, instead of whining about 2003 ... again.
Fair enough.
That means attacking Iran because they appear to be killing U.S. troops in Iraq.
Or do we just assume Bush is lying.
Did someone pull his string again?

This whole "safe haven" for Al Qaeda crap is a farce.  Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (our "allies") are and always will be the biggest "safe haven" and source of funds, respectively, for what is now known as Al Qaeda.

Iran has every reason to want to settle down the shit cauldron, they have their own insurgent issues to deal with.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6583|SE London

Mek-Izzle wrote:

We opened the gates for them by invading for fuck-all reason, now we have to clean our own mess up. The U.S deathtoll passed 4,000 today. The Iraqi count is much higher, don't forget the other nations fighting. It all adds to the mess, now it has to be cleaned up. I feel sorry for the next U.S president, I don't think even 2 terms from the next U.S President will be able to clean it up.

I was against the Invasion, but I'm more against just leaving the place a mess and giving AQ another safe haven
US death toll past 4000.

What is the total US death toll as a result of Islamic terrorism this century (by that I mean over the past 100 years)? I doubt it's 4000.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2008-03-24 09:05:04)

RoosterCantrell
Goodbye :)
+399|6482|Somewhere else

Bertster7 wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

So if there was not a single shred of evidence linking Saddam to Al Qaeda why did Bush, Cheney etc keep telling us there was?
'Cos they think the public are idiots. Fortunately for them, many of them are.
Yep.


But anyone with a brain, knew this a long time ago. In a way making it old news.  Parts of the government stepping up to the truth is nice, but a little too late.

When Bush is gone, things will be better.  I mean, could any of the candidates do WORSE? God I hope not.
TC.Troy
Let the rough side drag
+111|6575
Any time there is conflict, you are gonna get hurt.  If it be a simple fist fight, or a full scale friggin war.  The fact of the matter is, terrorism is comming our way.  It was comming (had already) come our way when we invaded Iraq.  Sadly, stationary, undefended public buildings, airline flight crews, and office workers were (are) completely defenseless.

The Unites States military is not...

For whatever reasons the public were given pre-invasion, we are there now, no changing that for the time being.

Why not let the military do what it does best?  Kill idiots that if not dropped there, will be trying to drop civilians here, and elsewhere. 

No denying that "terrorism" (funny how "insurgency" and "terrorism" have become almost interchangable...) is in Iraq now, and seemingly wasnt before. 

I sit and hear the news daily, each and every time there is an announcement of casualties, I just have to say a little prayer, and shake my head...
No matter if I agree with the reasons for the invasion or no, I 100% support the use of force THERE, instead of them using 100% force HERE...against unarmed defenseless civilian targets.
TC.Troy
Let the rough side drag
+111|6575

Bertster7 wrote:

Mek-Izzle wrote:

We opened the gates for them by invading for fuck-all reason, now we have to clean our own mess up. The U.S deathtoll passed 4,000 today. The Iraqi count is much higher, don't forget the other nations fighting. It all adds to the mess, now it has to be cleaned up. I feel sorry for the next U.S president, I don't think even 2 terms from the next U.S President will be able to clean it up.

I was against the Invasion, but I'm more against just leaving the place a mess and giving AQ another safe haven
US death toll past 4000.

What is the total US death toll as a result of Islamic terrorism this century (by that I mean over the past 100 years)? I doubt it's 4000.
wtf??

The trade center cost almost 3000 lives.  The barracks bombing in Beirut killed 300+ Marines...
Thats just 2 that jump to mind quickly.
Still gives us (according to you) about 98 more years to look at...

Seems to me they were AT LEAST 3/4 of the way there long before anything else happened.  geezus...
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6583|SE London

TC.Troy wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Mek-Izzle wrote:

We opened the gates for them by invading for fuck-all reason, now we have to clean our own mess up. The U.S deathtoll passed 4,000 today. The Iraqi count is much higher, don't forget the other nations fighting. It all adds to the mess, now it has to be cleaned up. I feel sorry for the next U.S president, I don't think even 2 terms from the next U.S President will be able to clean it up.

I was against the Invasion, but I'm more against just leaving the place a mess and giving AQ another safe haven
US death toll past 4000.

What is the total US death toll as a result of Islamic terrorism this century (by that I mean over the past 100 years)? I doubt it's 4000.
wtf??

The trade center cost almost 3000 lives.  The barracks bombing in Beirut killed 300+ Marines...
Thats just 2 that jump to mind quickly.
Still gives us (according to you) about 98 more years to look at...

Seems to me they were AT LEAST 3/4 of the way there long before anything else happened.  geezus...
Yup and the Cole bombing cost about 17 lives.

Where are the rest?

About 1000 to go.

There weren't any before '74. When there were 79 killed in a plane bombing.
Another 2 dead in '77.
1 in '82.
1 in '90.
8 in '93.
1 in '94.
2 in '95.
1 in '97.
2 in '02.
1 in '06.

I make it 3089.

This proactive attempt to combat terrorism has clearly not worked. More American lives have been lost trying (and failing miserably, just making the situation worse) to stop terrorism than have been lost as a result of Islamic terrorism itself.

In many ways 9/11 worked doubly well for Al-Qaeda. They killed lots of Americans and the backlash (particularly Iraq) it provoked meant they got to kill many more.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2008-03-24 09:42:11)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6603|132 and Bush

http://a.abcnews.com/images/pdf/Pentagon_Report_V1.pdf

Saddam Hussein had plenty of ties to all sorts of terrorist groups, including radical Islamist jihadis.
(34-35)
The agent reports (Extract 25) that The Army of Muhammad is working with Osama bin Laden. …

    A later memorandum from the same collection to the Director of the IIS reports that the Army of Muhammad is endeavoring to receive assistance [from Iraq] to implement its objectives, and that the local IIS station has been told to deal with them in accordance with priorities previously established. The IIS agent goes on to inform the Director that “this organization is an offshoot of bin Laden, but that their objectives are similar but with different names that can be a way of camouflaging the organization.”
AoM had ambitious plans including attacks on American interests. On page 35, the Iraqis list their aims as attacking Jewish and American interests anywhere in the world, attacking American embassies, disrupting American oil supplies and tankers, and attacking the American military bases in the Middle East.The Iraqi support for AoM may not be an operational link, but it’s certainly a financial link that goes right to Osama bin Laden. The Iraqis certainly understood that much, and hoped to keep it quiet.

You might want to pay attention to the actual conclusion of the report as well.
One question remains regarding Iraq’s terrorism capability: Is there anything in the captured archives to indicate that Saddam had the will to use his terrorist capabilities directly against United States? Judging from examples of Saddam’s statements (Extract 34) before the 1991 Gulf War with the United tates, the answer is yes.

    In the years between the two Gulf Wars, UN sanctions reduced Saddam’s ability to shape regional and world events, steadily draining his military, economic, and military powers. The rise of Islamist fundamentalism in the region gave Saddam the opportunity to make terrorism, one of the few tools remaining in Saddam’s “coercion” toolbox, not only cost effective but a formal instrument of state power. Saddam nurtured this capability with an infrastructure supporting (1) his own particular brand of state terrorism against internal and external threats, (2) the state sponsorship of suicide operations, and (3) organizational relationships and “outreach programs” for terrorist groups. Evidence that was uncovered and analyzed attests to the existence of a terrorist capability and a willingness to use it until the day Saddam was forced to flee Baghdad by Coalition forces.
When attacking Western interests, the competitive terror cartel
came into play, particularly in the late 1990s. Captured documents reveal that the
regime was willing to co-opt or support organizations it knew to be part of al
Qaeda-as long as that organization's near-term goals supported Saddam's longterm
vision. A directive (Extract 24) from the Director for International Intelligence
in the IIS to an Iraqi operative in Bahrain orders him to investigate a particular
terrorist group there, The Army of Muhammad.
Captured Iraqi documents have uncovered evidence that links the regime of Saddam Hussein to regional and global terrorism, including a variety of revolutionary, liberation, nationalist and Islamic terrorist organizations. While these documents do not reveal direct coordination and assistance between the Saddam regime and the al Qaeda network, they do indicate that Saddam was willing to use, albeit cautiously, operatives affiliated with al Qaeda as long as Saddam could have these terrorist-operatives monitored closely. Because Saddam's security organizations and Osama bin Laden's terrorist network operated with similar aims (at least in the short term), considerable overlap was inevitable when monitoring, contacting, financing, and training the same outside groups. This created both the appearance of and, in some way, a "de facto" link between the organizations. At times, these organizations would work together in pursuit of shared goals but still maintain their autonomy and independence because of innate caution and mutual distrust. Though the execution of Iraqi terror plots was not always successful, evidence shows that Saddam’s use of terrorist tactics and his support for terrorist groups remained strong up until the collapse of the regime.
I seriously suggest that anyone interested in this report should read it themselves. It is being spun both ways.

Whether the report is right or wrong I simply do not understand how anyone can interpret that it is saying no link.
Again, read it yourself: http://a.abcnews.com/images/pdf/Pentagon_Report_V1.pdf
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6544|Texas - Bigger than France
Wait a minute Kerry.  I already crossed Cheney off my Xmas card list.  Do I send him a card or just an email?

Whatever the report says, I believe something had to be done...but the debatable part was - did it have to be us?
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6603|132 and Bush

Pug wrote:

Wait a minute Kerry.  I already crossed Cheney off my Xmas card list.  Do I send him a card or just an email?

Whatever the report says, I believe something had to be done...but the debatable part was - did it have to be us?
Just don't send him a shotgun. The point I am making is to read the actual report. I am seriously perplexed at how anyone can read it and then create a topic around the idea that it said there was no link.

FFS look at the table of contents..lol
https://i32.tinypic.com/avhh81.jpg
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Freke1
I play at night... mostly
+47|6549|the best galaxy
I don't think this surprises anyone... does it?
Shame about the innocent US troops and Iraqi civilians killed, but at least Saddam is gone and the oil is secured.
That's why the oilprice is so low ... oh wait?
https://bf3s.com/sigs/7d11696e2ffd4edeff06466095e98b0fab37462c.png
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6603|132 and Bush

Freke1 wrote:

I don't think this surprises anyone... does it?
Shame about the innocent US troops and Iraqi civilians killed, but at least Saddam is gone and the oil is secured.
That's why the oilprice is so low ... oh wait?
You've just defeated yourself.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Freke1
I play at night... mostly
+47|6549|the best galaxy
How? I used irony.
https://bf3s.com/sigs/7d11696e2ffd4edeff06466095e98b0fab37462c.png
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6603|132 and Bush

Freke1 wrote:

How? I used irony.
Well you through out an ambiguous insinuation and then explained why it was flawed. Perhaps I didn't understand your sarcasm. If so, I apologize.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6544|Texas - Bigger than France

Kmarion wrote:

Pug wrote:

Wait a minute Kerry.  I already crossed Cheney off my Xmas card list.  Do I send him a card or just an email?

Whatever the report says, I believe something had to be done...but the debatable part was - did it have to be us?
Just don't send him a shotgun. The point I am making is to read the actual report. I am seriously perplexed at how anyone can read it and then create a topic around the idea that it said there was no link.
People believe what they want to believe.  Proven daily here is it not?


BTW that guy Cheney shot was choppered into a hospital three blocks from my house.

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