Horseman 77 wrote:>> In fact ATF was so afraid of some ordinance cooking off they were immediately seen walking through the rubble. <<
Beatdown 6) " I have no idea what this criptic sentence means. "
How did I lose him? He said " they had Explosives "
Sigh. You lost me because your sentence structure made no sense and didn't reference anything I said. Go back and read again, smart guy. I said there were REPORTS that the Davidians had explosives, not that they HAD explosives. Regardless of if they had them or not, what the hell was the warrant for? To search for it and confirm or deny. If they didn't have it, they didn't have it. What is your point? Is it that because the Davidians didn't have the explosives that the ATF was somehow wrong for launching the raid? If so, then that is some bass-ackwards thinking when it comes to law enforcement.
Horseman 77 wrote:If you were afraid of Massive amounts of explosives being stockpiled in a wooden building. Would you
" walk through the ruins after the buring building collapsed and was still smoking.? " Really ?
You are still hell bent on proving that they didn't have automatic weapons or explosives, which has no bearing on the argument. The report of automatic weapons and explosives, whether true or false, are well documented by the police, ATF, and several newspapers and media outlets. So no conspiracy there either.
Horseman 77 wrote:>> Automatic weapons? I would have Settled for any weapon, did they Melt ? I never saw them. <<
Beatdown 7) " ...and I have no idea what this criptic sentence means either. "
Again how did I lose him? A gun, weapons grade steel wont burn, melt or evaporate in a Fire. Where were all these Guns? The ATF is famous for trophy tables of weapons they sieze in real Raids on Real Crimanals
One more time. It does not matter if they had automatic weapons or not. I promise you...if you gave me your address and I called your local police, FBI, or ATF that you had explosives in your house or a bomb, you can bet that your ass that you are going to get raided if enough evidence exists to suggest that you do. When everything is said and done, if you have the contraband…you get charged. If you don’t, you have the express right to sue the government for mental distress, wrongful raid, property damage, and a plethora of other reasons, collect your hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions and call it a day. It happens all the time.
Horseman 77 wrote:Notice he got of the " Special Super Rescue Vehicle" / Tank argument or just forgot about it.
Notice all the Insults? I will say that this forum is a " safe place " to insult a person and its probebly no accident that some people pick this place to do it. oh well.
Calling you an asshole or some other derogatory name would be an insult. Saying you can't read might make you FEEL insulted, but that is on you. The statement itself is not an insult…especially when you blatantly pick and choose parts of my comments to argue about but leave out all the other proven evidence, completely misrepresent what I say, and refuse to list any sources. Worse, your posts have all the characteristics of rambling and are difficult to read and interpret.
Horseman 77 wrote:Beatdown " I will not answer this thread "
Thats the intellectual eqiuvalant to covering your ears and yelling na nah na na nah !
It is by no means intellectual. It is actually quite simple. There is an old saying that goes
"Never wallow with a pig. You just end up getting dirty and the pig loves it."
You are obviously going to believe what you want to believe and nothing I am going to say is going to change that. No hard evidence or articles or sources that I put down is going to change that either. Reading your propaganda has gotten tiresome and by this point, people can make their own judgments as to what has happened. I have spent too much time debating this issue, so if you want to view that as a 'victory' for yourself, then so be it. You won.
Horseman 77 wrote:As a matter of intrest it was the commander of the Raid on the Move Group in Philly* who did the investigation to see if WACO was too exsessive. Hmmm. ? No white wash there.
...and this is why I question your credibility. Ronald K. Noble headed the investigation, who was the Assistant Treasury Secretary for Law Enforcement. He was selected by the Treasury Secretary Lloyd Bentsen. Ronald Noble then named three independent investigators into the Waco raid. Of the three, TWO had connections with the MOVE raid, one directly and the other indirectly. The direct connection was Henry S. Ruth, Jr, who served on the Special Investigative Commission that investigated the police's actions during the MOVE raid. It is interesting to note that Henry Ruth was also one of the prosecutors for Watergate...a bit of a strike against the theory that he would try to "cover" the government's ass. The second person that was indirectly connected with MOVE was Willie L. Williams, who was a police official during the time that the MOVE raid took place, but had NO connection with the raid or the people involved with the raid. He was simply a guy on the force.
This is how misinformation propagates. Your one statement misleads people into believing that one person led the investigation and covered everything up because of some connection with the MOVE incident, when in fact it is two different people, neither of which led the raid on MOVE.
Horseman 77 wrote:* " Big Fire, Big surprise, the Whole block burned down "
Watch " Waco Rules of Engagement" if you didn't watch the hearings live.
Combat Veterans testified on what they saw and witnessed first hand.
you will see Ariel night vision tape of the event as it unfolded.
if you don't like seeing dogs and puppies shot while safely contained in their Kennels,
You are right. It is a conspiracy that the mainstream media completely ignored. They hide or destroyed all their footage of the raid because they were scared of the government. The dogs that were killed was so tragic, that I completely forgot that 4 agents died the first day of the raid.
Horseman 77 wrote:Where the hell are we Nazi Germany ?
Hardly...and the comparison of such is a slap in the face of those who suffered and died through what happened in Nazi Germany and any other oppressive police state. In Nazi Germany, the Davidians wouldn't have had weapons in the first place because they wouldn't be allowed to own them. Instead of bothering with a raid, the Nazis would have just gassed the place or barraged it with artillery or heavy weapons. While unlikely, any survivors would have been shot without a trial or would have simply "disappeared". Any reports of the events would have come from state sponsored media outlets...althought it is far more likely that all evidence of the action would be removed and/or destroyed.
Horseman 77 wrote:In fact how many people would let someone anyone Cops included, come to their house and shoot their dogs without a fight?
I will. If cops busted down my door, I wouldn't do a damn thing because I don't want to get shot by a rookie with a twitchy finger or have my actions misinterpreted as being hostile and have the whole police raid blast me into spaghetti. If everything is a big mistake, then I will take my chances in court where I will be ALIVE to sue them. No matter what, pulling out a gun or having my family members pull out guns and start blastin' would be the wrong Wrong WRONG move.
Good night and have a happy life, Horseman.
ADDENDUM: I had to put this in today because I found it so ironic after listening to the news this morning about a raid on a homestead in Iraq. The same people (gun rights owners, Rebublicans, survivalists, conspiracy theorists, etc.) who disagree with the way the Waco was handled are the same people who believe that we should be in Iraq for the purpose of protecting America. And yet...guess what is going on over there? The military (aka - our government) is beating down the doors and raiding homes on REPORTS of illegal activity, weapons, and explosives. There are armed checkpoints, illegal seizures, MASSIVE property damage, civilian casualties, prison abuses, and much much MUCH more...all in the name of security. Regardless of the ethics, morals, right or wrong...it is a fact that this is what is happening over there. People want to say, "But wait...we are "at war" over in Iraq", but the military is still a representative of our government and ways of life. In addition, the sad and unfortunate truth is that the military is being force to act as police in that region, a task that the military is not trained or suited to do. I am not making a statement for or against the US being over there OR criticizing the tough job that the military is doing over there...I am simply calling a duck what it is. A DUCK.
My point is this...the same actions that are being condemned over here in the US seem to not be an issue if it is someplace else, even if it is done by our own citizens. Anyplace but here.
...and that my friends is a gross double-standard.
Last edited by Beatdown Patrol (2006-01-09 18:51:48)