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Horseman 77
Banned
+160|5955
Was it Justice served ?
   
  An abuse of power ?

  Was it a well run or typical operration ?

  Did anything strike you as odd ?



Please add

  Age ?
  place you live ?
  What sources you are  using for your opinions ?
  Occupation ?
  Do you own a Gun ?
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|5827|Wilmington, DE, US
I was reading about this the other day on Wikipedia and the article sucked. The discussion page was hilarious though.

I think David Koresh was a perv and that things went to hell but the cult was a bunch of loonies and I really don't give a damn what happened. The cultists had guns, the FBI had guns, it was all good in da hood.

18
USA
Myself
Student
Nope
SFCCDailey
Banned
+106|5833|USA
Who was right and who was wrong as for as David Koresh and the brain-washed branch Davidians is a hard one to call. I have to say that it was a tragedy that innocent children died due to the pure stupidity of David Koresh and company. With the FBI, State and local Police and ESPECIALLY the US ARMY Specail Forces there, it was absolutely just plain stupid for the branch Davidians to fire on them. That was the wrong place to pull some dumb shit like that. As an ex Military Intelligence Officer I can tell you that although the Government stated that the Army Special forces were there ONLY as advisors is complete bullshit. Our government knows that it is unconstitutional for the Military to police it's own people without certain proceedures being followed. And in this case they weren't. But in my opinion the Government did not inteend for the situation to happen as it did. And let's not forget that the entire situation could have been avoided if the Branch Davidian's had surrendered and complied with the orders given to them. But I bet we won't run into anymore dumb ass cults starting shit with the Government anymore!

Age: 30
USA
Multiple sources BUT NOT the media who reported the story.
Computer Security
Yes I own a gun.
CreepingDeath
Member
+1|5862
What happend at waco ?
Oh that's right our goverment killed a bunch of woman childern and men because why?
Oh thats right they had some guns and religion . . .

Didn't this happen in the USA oh yeah it did .. whatever happen to thier freedoms that so many have died for to keep.
YOU KNOW the ones that say
We have the right to bare arms
and freedom of religion?

HOW many did OUR GOVERMENT KILL over this ..
atlvolunteer
PKMMMMMMMMMM
+27|5889|Atlanta, GA USA
I think this was a major fuckup by our government.  Based on what I've read/seen:
1. I don't think the Branch Davidians opened fire first. 
2. The Branch Davidians did not start the fire.  One of the tear gas cannisters launched into the house caused it.
IMO, the whole thing was a bunch of bullshit that got escalated by some ATF fucks, just like Ruby Ridge.

32
Atlanta
Mostly on a documentary I saw about it (I think it was on PBS)
Software Engineer
Yes
CreepingDeath
Member
+1|5862

atlvolunteer wrote:

I think this was a major fuckup by our government.  Based on what I've read/seen:
1. I don't think the Branch Davidians opened fire first. 
2. The Branch Davidians did not start the fire.  One of the tear gas cannisters launched into the house caused it.
IMO, the whole thing was a bunch of bullshit that got escalated by some ATF fucks, just like Ruby Ridge.
Nope, they didn't open fire first. OUR GREAT GOVERMENT was sick of being made a fool of and haven us watch our tax dollars go down the drain with all the forces and what it took to maintain that area while this was taken place.

Again it does go back to freedom or religion and right to bare arms. A cult or not it was thier beliefs thier religion way of life. How dare our country say they can't do what they want, when they have not once committed not a single crime.

And we fight for our freedoms over in another country so they say. YEAH RIGHT
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|5827|Wilmington, DE, US
Uh, I'm pretty sure the Branch Davidians DID start the fire.

As for shooting first, I don't know.

EDIT: Molesting children IS against the law and a group of people who are ok with it happening aren't on the right side of the law either.

Last edited by Ikarti (2006-01-05 09:08:59)

atlvolunteer
PKMMMMMMMMMM
+27|5889|Atlanta, GA USA

Ikarti wrote:

Uh, I'm pretty sure the Branch Davidians DID start the fire.

As for shooting first, I don't know.

EDIT: Molesting children IS against the law and a group of people who are ok with it happening aren't on the right side of the law either.
The documentary I watched had infrared footage recorded by an FBI (I think, some gov't agency) helicopter that recorded the entire encounter.  Based on that video, it looked like a teargas cannister launched from a tank-like vehicle caused the fire.
They may have been molesting children, but, that wasn't why the raid occured.  The ATF was serving a warrant for supposed weapons violations.
Hyper
Banned
+154|5868
Yay Usa!
FeloniousMonk
Member
+0|5853

Horseman 77 wrote:

Was it Justice served ?
   
  An abuse of power ?

  Was it a well run or typical operration ?

  Did anything strike you as odd ?



Please add

  Age ?
  place you live ?
  What sources you are  using for your opinions ?
  Occupation ?
  Do you own a Gun ?
It's hard to tell if justice was served because I believe the "evidence" of child molestation and abuse still under contention. If a child is being abused, the perpetrators must be punished. If there was no abuse on Koresh's part then there was a definite abuse of power on the government's part.

22
Chicago
Various
Network administrator
Yes
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|5955
Even the ATF has admited the " child molestation " charges were De facto, added later for effect.

Some how they knew he wasn't going to testify later lol.

Ever notice FBI "  hostage Rescue Team " or HuRT *  standoffs usually End in a Fire

*snicker

SLA in Los Angles
Move Group in Philly PA
WACO Texas.

When you are at the Rifle range, Does a fire ever break out from all the shooting ?
atlvolunteer
PKMMMMMMMMMM
+27|5889|Atlanta, GA USA
What I don't understand is why we need the ATF to begin with.  Alcohol, tobacco, and firearms are all legal, right?
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|5827|Wilmington, DE, US
Last time I checked though, the FBI wasn't close enough to put a bullet in Mr. Koresh's head either, unless it was some sort of exploding round that the evil ATF set off with the fire they supposedly started (Which I maintain that they did not.) The operation was botched, there isn't some government conspiracy though. Koresh was not a good person, and if the cult condones child molestation, then neither are they.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|5955

Ikarti wrote:

Last time I checked though, the FBI wasn't close enough to put a bullet in Mr. Koresh's head either, unless it was some sort of exploding round that the evil ATF set off with the fire they supposedly started (Which I maintain that they did not.) The operation was botched, there isn't some government conspiracy though. Koresh was not a good person, and if the cult condones child molestation, then neither are they.
they didnt

The kids had  15 or so Go Karts

a Go Kart race track.

Dogs and puppies wich the ATF shot in the opening minutes of the Raid.

Can you believe it, shooting a kids  puppys? what gutless fux.
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|5827|Wilmington, DE, US
Go karts don't mean children are being treated well.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|5955

Ikarti wrote:

Last time I checked though, the FBI wasn't close enough to put a bullet in Mr. Koresh's head either, unless it was some sort of exploding round that the evil ATF set off with the fire they supposedly started (Which I maintain that they did not.) The operation was botched, there isn't some government conspiracy though. Koresh was not a good person, and if the cult condones child molestation, then neither are they.
they didnt molest kids. It was a church.

The kids had  15 or so Go Karts

a Go Kart race track.

Thay also had Dogs and puppies wich the ATF shot in the opening minutes of the Raid.

Can you believe it, shooting a kids  puppys? what gutless fux.
Bogey2005
Member
+0|5822|Dallas, TX
Did the recent article people are mentioning say anything about: the three gas cans scattered on the upper levels that the Davidians were suppose to light upon the initial attack to invoke the appocoplypse Koresh had been preaching?  Any orders the Davidians had been given re: shooting other Davidians rather than have them be captured by the ATF (including children)? Anything about the buried school bus bunker that had over a dozen children killed in it? 

Just curious.  Each of these had been reported by several different agencies gathered in Texas when this happened.

Last edited by Bogey2005 (2006-01-05 14:37:51)

Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|5827|Wilmington, DE, US

Horseman 77 wrote:

they didnt molest kids. It was a church.
Consult the Roman Catholic Church, and then reread.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|5955

Ikarti wrote:

Horseman 77 wrote:

they didnt molest kids. It was a church.
Consult the Roman Catholic Church, and then reread.
What does  that mean only preist molest or Only catholisisiam (SP) counts as a church

In many peoples definitiuon a Cult is an Unrecognized religion.

Many religions have face percicution. Try and make your meaning known. ?

You lost me.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|5955
I also know sevarl Local Law Enforcment people with no politacal motives or alliances Proved the The Koresh guy was in town the day before and could have been picked up at the Local Diner.

The Code name of the ATF op was " Show Time " and that seems to have been their intention.
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|5827|Wilmington, DE, US
Basically, you said that they didn't molest children, and that it was a church. Being a church doesn't stop people from molesting children, and in some cases, like the catholic church, it's rampant.

The definiton of what is and isn't a cult is debatable, and from what I view this as, it's a cult. David Koresh benefited at the expense of others. It was centered around him. Those are very cultlike aspects there.

I don't think they were being persecuted. I think they were a cult. I mean, i don't get why a siege ensued from a warrant on unlicensed weapons, but Koresh and the others were no saints.
atlvolunteer
PKMMMMMMMMMM
+27|5889|Atlanta, GA USA
Like I said before, they may have been child molesters, but that does not justify a full-on assault.  Neither does a few supposed weapons violations.
BTW I also remember hearing that Koresh was in town right before the seige and could have easily been picked up.
The ATF fucks up everything they get involved with.
Detgonzo
Member
+0|5934
Unfortunatley it is hard to understand why people don't get the fact that the people involved possesed illegal firearms which the federal and state government had an obligation to check and remove. If those people involved would have complied with the law and cooperated with the search, none of this would have occured.

We do have many freedoms as American Citizens but none of them allow us to violate the laws that we as a country have set forth. Alot of people fight every day to keep this true and no one individuals rights over rule that.

If these laws don't complie with your beliefs find another place that has laws that do or vote next time and try to change them. Until then, these are the rules like them of leave.

40
New York
various
Military
Yes
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|5959|Cologne, Germany

Detgonzo wrote:

Unfortunatley it is hard to understand why people don't get the fact that the people involved possesed illegal firearms which the federal and state government had an obligation to check and remove. If those people involved would have complied with the law and cooperated with the search, none of this would have occured.

We do have many freedoms as American Citizens but none of them allow us to violate the laws that we as a country have set forth. Alot of people fight every day to keep this true and no one individuals rights over rule that.

If these laws don't complie with your beliefs find another place that has laws that do or vote next time and try to change them. Until then, these are the rules like them of leave.

40
New York
various
Military
Yes
best statement I have read so far. Let's say I run a peaceful cult/church and have some followers gathered around me in a ranch, including children. Let's also say I consider myself law abiding citizen ( which includes not possessing illegal firearms ).

Now the ATF is knocking at my front door with a search warrant, basically saying "Mr Koresh, we have credible information that you have illegal firearms on this property and we would like to have that checked out". Now, if all said above is true, why the hell would Koresh bunker himself in and not co-operate with authorities, thereby risking the lives of his followers ?

4 ATF agents were killed and 16 wounded on the first day, while trying to execute arrest warrants against Koresh and search warrants against the branch davidians compound. Cult/Church or not, Koresh was a madman, and he wanted the conflict with federal authorities. He could have let himself arrested and let his lawyers handle it. He chose not to.

and now you want to put the blame on the authorities ?

30
Cologne, Germany
PBS http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline … eline.html and this forum
Import / Export of electronic components / PCB's
no
THA
im a fucking .....well not now
+609|5888|AUS, Canberra
to be honest i havnt read or seen much on it, but from what i have seen i get the impression that justice prob was served to the right people and also to some inocent and that the raid as a whole was a bit of a cock up.

but as i said i dont know much about tthe topic.

27
australia
news and saw a little bit of a special on it.
buisness owner
yes own guns.

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