I really don't give a shit either, I am just sick of hearing how great this religion is and how we need more understanding of it and how we need to welcome it into our midst. and change our society as t onot offend it.Turquoise wrote:
Here's how I see it. If these other countries (including Saudi Arabia) want to abuse their own people, I really don't give a shit. All I care is that the oil keeps flowing. If they fuck with our business interests, we fuck them back. Other than that, they can prolong whatever primitive traditions they want to for all I care.
I just wish we'd own up to the fact that most of our intervention isn't about national security or democracy. It's about money and oil. It's that simple. We extend our own influence to counter whatever China or Russia might have in mind.
She was in a Starbucks with a non family member... kill her... lol
Love is the answer
I don't think anyone will disagree with you on the above. I'm guessing the issue of debate has to do with how we proceed from here on.lowing wrote:
this religion has been shown time and time again it is intolerant, it is unjust, it is violent and it does not fit with western morals and values.
I am against this religion. It is violent it is stone age and it is intolerable and it does not blend in with western society.
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Eh.. well, I'm not saying all Muslims are idiots or fanatics. I wouldn't even really blame Islam itself. It's all about interpretation.lowing wrote:
I really don't give a shit either, I am just sick of hearing how great this religion is and how we need more understanding of it and how we need to welcome it into our midst. and change our society as t onot offend it.
Christianity can be used for just as much evil as Islam can, but what you're looking at is the behavior of certain fanatical societies and governments.
I would agree that we should stand firm in protecting our freedoms against fanaticism, but I also don't have a problem with being polite to Islamic immigrants. Granted, the pursuit of being polite should never transgress things like common sense (like that hospital thing you posted about).
As cynical as I am about people in general, I have to admit that I actually do have faith in humanity to the extent that I really think the vast majority of Americans would never allow fundamentalist Islam to change our freedoms. Now, this might be a possibility in certain other countries, but that's their business.
Last edited by Turquoise (2008-02-06 17:42:55)
No religeon is evil. A religeon it's texts, its structure, alone can harm NO ONE. It's the people who wield it, and thier interpretations of it.
Lowing, you constantly say that you have Nothing against muslims, just the islamic religeon itself. But, really, to me, that makes no sense. The people are what make a religeon bad.
You have to acknowledge the fact that there are many, quite possibly the majority of muslims, that are peaceful good natured people, and its the fringe extremists, do extreme things that grab the headlines. Stoning a person to death will create headlines, a charity drive, or the like doesn't get much attention.
You can offer up one thousand articles of horrible shit done in the name of Islam, and that is a large chunk of horrible things. But if you were able to do the impossible, and take every single instance of good or bad something was done in the name of Islam, add them up; I think its pretty safe to say that the horrible things attributed to Islam would be shadowed by the overall good and well intentions of the Many followers of Islam.
TBH, I don't see your point in dragging this up over and over, in the last thread, not many agreed with you, and you are unwilling to consider any opinion but the one you currently have, it's just gonna be the same debate over and over.
I have considered everything you said, and I see some valid points, I just disagree with you, and everyone that does, according to you, has thier head in the sand. Impossible to actually debate with someone like that. You are unwilling to give an inch to anything anyone says. Good luck with it anyway i guess .
Lowing, you constantly say that you have Nothing against muslims, just the islamic religeon itself. But, really, to me, that makes no sense. The people are what make a religeon bad.
You have to acknowledge the fact that there are many, quite possibly the majority of muslims, that are peaceful good natured people, and its the fringe extremists, do extreme things that grab the headlines. Stoning a person to death will create headlines, a charity drive, or the like doesn't get much attention.
You can offer up one thousand articles of horrible shit done in the name of Islam, and that is a large chunk of horrible things. But if you were able to do the impossible, and take every single instance of good or bad something was done in the name of Islam, add them up; I think its pretty safe to say that the horrible things attributed to Islam would be shadowed by the overall good and well intentions of the Many followers of Islam.
TBH, I don't see your point in dragging this up over and over, in the last thread, not many agreed with you, and you are unwilling to consider any opinion but the one you currently have, it's just gonna be the same debate over and over.
I have considered everything you said, and I see some valid points, I just disagree with you, and everyone that does, according to you, has thier head in the sand. Impossible to actually debate with someone like that. You are unwilling to give an inch to anything anyone says. Good luck with it anyway i guess .
Well cockhead, lets look at what the follower of this religion had to say,lowing wrote:
Hey dipshit, I did not say ALL MUSIMS are evil or intolerant. I said this religion is violent and intolerant.
“To me ,it's a place of worship,” said Mr. Bayyari, 55. “In my mind and in my religion, I believe in Judaism as part of Islam. We believe in Abraham. We believe in Moses. In the Koran, there’s lots of talk about Isaac and Joseph. I am always fascinated by this, and I always feel I have a relationship with this faith. And knowing what’s happened in the Middle East, what better way to build bridges?”
Islam is a religion that hasnt got 1 leader (like the pope) so there are many branches and different teachings. Looks like the branch of Islam that this guy follows is very tolerant and peaceful. This also disproves your opinion that Islam as a religion is intolerant and violent.
Really wanna talk about the teachings of the prohet Muhammad?? Do you really really wanna??Burwhale the Avenger wrote:
Well cockhead, lets look at what the follower of this religion had to say,lowing wrote:
Hey dipshit, I did not say ALL MUSIMS are evil or intolerant. I said this religion is violent and intolerant.
“To me ,it's a place of worship,” said Mr. Bayyari, 55. “In my mind and in my religion, I believe in Judaism as part of Islam. We believe in Abraham. We believe in Moses. In the Koran, there’s lots of talk about Isaac and Joseph. I am always fascinated by this, and I always feel I have a relationship with this faith. And knowing what’s happened in the Middle East, what better way to build bridges?”
Islam is a religion that hasnt got 1 leader (like the pope) so there are many branches and different teachings. Looks like the branch of Islam that this guy follows is very tolerant and peaceful. This also disproves your opinion that Islam as a religion is intolerant and violent.
Lowing does have a good point with this.... The strictest interpretations of Islam tend to be very fanatical and militant. Islam was a religion born out of conquest.
The difference between Christianity and Islam is that Christianity preaches some very peaceful and forgiving things, but it was a religion spread by conquest rather than born out of it.
The catch is that Christ himself never advocated conquest, whereas Muhammad essentially did. So the Christian conquerors were actually going against their own religion's morals, while the Islamic ones were more or less following theirs.
This is why reformist Muslims tend to take a looser interpretation of the Quran than the fanatics -- similar to the differences between fundamentalist Baptists and Unitarians.
Either way, both of these religions have a wide range of interpretations. Thankfully, the majority of Muslims that immigrate to America are of the reformist variety and respect our freedoms as such.
The difference between Christianity and Islam is that Christianity preaches some very peaceful and forgiving things, but it was a religion spread by conquest rather than born out of it.
The catch is that Christ himself never advocated conquest, whereas Muhammad essentially did. So the Christian conquerors were actually going against their own religion's morals, while the Islamic ones were more or less following theirs.
This is why reformist Muslims tend to take a looser interpretation of the Quran than the fanatics -- similar to the differences between fundamentalist Baptists and Unitarians.
Either way, both of these religions have a wide range of interpretations. Thankfully, the majority of Muslims that immigrate to America are of the reformist variety and respect our freedoms as such.
Dude if you have something to say , just say it, you dont have to "dare me" to come up with something. If you want to say something about the teachings of Mohammed make a post, or start a new OP. What will then happen is that people will look into it, prove you wrong and make you look like a silly little child.lowing wrote:
Really wanna talk about the teachings of the prohet Muhammad?? Do you really really wanna??
BTW, I am going AFK for a few hours so dont interpret me not answering you, as admitting you are right.
There ya go. This is what I have been saying......If you follow Christ's teachings you are a Christian........If you do not follow his teachings regardless of what you call yourself you are not a Christian.Turquoise wrote:
Lowing does have a good point with this.... The strictest interpretations of Islam tend to be very fanatical and militant. Islam was a religion born out of conquest.
The difference between Christianity and Islam is that Christianity preaches some very peaceful and forgiving things, but it was a religion spread by conquest rather than born out of it.
The catch is that Christ himself never advocated conquest, whereas Muhammad essentially did. So the Christian conquerors were actually going against their own religion's morals, while the Islamic ones were more or less following theirs.
This is why reformist Muslims tend to take a looser interpretation of the Quran than the fanatics -- similar to the differences between fundamentalist Baptists and Unitarians.
Either way, both of these religions have a wide range of interpretations. Thankfully, the majority of Muslims that immigrate to America are of the reformist variety and respect our freedoms as such.
If you follow the prophet Muhammad's teachings ( which is that of violence and intolerance) you are follwoing Islam. If you do not follow these teachings, regardless of what you call yourself YOU are not Muslim.
Now once again this religion teaches violence and intolerance. The prophet Muhammad himself lopped off over 600 heads. So, when I talk about Islam it is the teachings and how those teachings are practiced against the rest of us, that I am talking about.
So all of those nice peace loving tolerant PEOPLE out their that call themselves Muslims, find a new name for your religion "cuz Islam is already taken.
I just said it........read upBurwhale the Avenger wrote:
Dude if you have something to say , just say it, you dont have to "dare me" to come up with something. If you want to say something about the teachings of Mohammed make a post, or start a new OP. What will then happen is that people will look into it, prove you wrong and make you look like a silly little child.lowing wrote:
Really wanna talk about the teachings of the prohet Muhammad?? Do you really really wanna??
BTW, I am going AFK for a few hours so dont interpret me not answering you, as admitting you are right.
I can give an inch as soon as what I say is responded to or disproved instead of being dismissed as racist, generalizing, Hitleresque, or any other number of bullshit responses that dances around what is actually posted.RoosterCantrell wrote:
No religeon is evil. A religeon it's texts, its structure, alone can harm NO ONE. It's the people who wield it, and thier interpretations of it.
Lowing, you constantly say that you have Nothing against muslims, just the islamic religeon itself. But, really, to me, that makes no sense. The people are what make a religeon bad.
You have to acknowledge the fact that there are many, quite possibly the majority of muslims, that are peaceful good natured people, and its the fringe extremists, do extreme things that grab the headlines. Stoning a person to death will create headlines, a charity drive, or the like doesn't get much attention.
You can offer up one thousand articles of horrible shit done in the name of Islam, and that is a large chunk of horrible things. But if you were able to do the impossible, and take every single instance of good or bad something was done in the name of Islam, add them up; I think its pretty safe to say that the horrible things attributed to Islam would be shadowed by the overall good and well intentions of the Many followers of Islam.
TBH, I don't see your point in dragging this up over and over, in the last thread, not many agreed with you, and you are unwilling to consider any opinion but the one you currently have, it's just gonna be the same debate over and over.
I have considered everything you said, and I see some valid points, I just disagree with you, and everyone that does, according to you, has thier head in the sand. Impossible to actually debate with someone like that. You are unwilling to give an inch to anything anyone says. Good luck with it anyway i guess .
In other words, prove to me that the teachings of Islam is NOT violent and intolerant then I will concede. Prove to me that the Prophet Muhammad was not violent and intolerant. and I will concede.
Lowing, I appreciate the quoting, but it's not as simple as that. Like any religion, there can be multiple interpretations while still remaining a part of the central dogma.lowing wrote:
There ya go. This is what I have been saying......If you follow Christ's teachings you are a Christian........If you do not follow his teachings regardless of what you call yourself you are not a Christian.
If you follow the prophet Muhammad's teachings ( which is that of violence and intolerance) you are follwoing Islam. If you do not follow these teachings, regardless of what you call yourself YOU are not Muslim.
Now once again this religion teaches violence and intolerance. The prophet Muhammad himself lopped off over 600 heads. So, when I talk about Islam it is the teachings and how those teachings are practiced against the rest of us, that I am talking about.
So all of those nice peace loving tolerant PEOPLE out their that call themselves Muslims, find a new name for your religion "cuz Islam is already taken.
I was just saying that Islam is harder to follow in a strict, literalist way than Christianity is. So yes, there are some inherent hazards in Islam that I think you and I can agree on. But as long as we only let reformist and more liberal (a.k.a. - West friendly, not necessarily Democrat) Muslims into our country, we're fine. We just have to be wary of the fanatical ultraconservatives.
That's a bit of a generalization to say the least.RoosterCantrell wrote:
No religeon is evil. A religeon it's texts, its structure, alone can harm NO ONE. It's the people who wield it, and thier interpretations of it.
how?Deadmonkiefart wrote:
That's a bit of a generalization to say the least.RoosterCantrell wrote:
No religeon is evil. A religeon it's texts, its structure, alone can harm NO ONE. It's the people who wield it, and thier interpretations of it.
did someone beat the shit out of you with a 10lb. bible.?
Perhaps, but it's mostly true.Deadmonkiefart wrote:
That's a bit of a generalization to say the least.RoosterCantrell wrote:
No religeon is evil. A religeon it's texts, its structure, alone can harm NO ONE. It's the people who wield it, and thier interpretations of it.
I disagree. The increased immigration of "moderate Muslims" into the western civilization increases the likelyhood of increased radical elements and their actions. Of which no one has any control or will have any control.Turquoise wrote:
Lowing, I appreciate the quoting, but it's not as simple as that. Like any religion, there can be multiple interpretations while still remaining a part of the central dogma.lowing wrote:
There ya go. This is what I have been saying......If you follow Christ's teachings you are a Christian........If you do not follow his teachings regardless of what you call yourself you are not a Christian.
If you follow the prophet Muhammad's teachings ( which is that of violence and intolerance) you are follwoing Islam. If you do not follow these teachings, regardless of what you call yourself YOU are not Muslim.
Now once again this religion teaches violence and intolerance. The prophet Muhammad himself lopped off over 600 heads. So, when I talk about Islam it is the teachings and how those teachings are practiced against the rest of us, that I am talking about.
So all of those nice peace loving tolerant PEOPLE out their that call themselves Muslims, find a new name for your religion "cuz Islam is already taken.
I was just saying that Islam is harder to follow in a strict, literalist way than Christianity is. So yes, there are some inherent hazards in Islam that I think you and I can agree on. But as long as we only let reformist and more liberal (a.k.a. - West friendly, not necessarily Democrat) Muslims into our country, we're fine. We just have to be wary of the fanatical ultraconservatives.
Most of the problems in countries like the U.K. with fanatical Muslims involve a few clerics that do what they can to rally disaffected youths. First generation immigrants usually aren't the problem -- it's the 2nd gens.lowing wrote:
I disagree. The increased immigration of "moderate Muslims" into the western civilization increases the likelyhood of increased radical elements and their actions. Of which no one has any control or will have any control.
The children of immigrants often have identity issues that asshole extremists typically exploit.
Last edited by Turquoise (2008-02-06 19:31:02)
Sooooooooooo........you are gunna agree with me then?? Or what??Turquoise wrote:
Most of the problems in countries like the U.K. with fanatical Muslims involve a few clerics that do what they can to rally disaffected youths. First generation immigrants usually aren't the problem -- it's the 2nd gens.lowing wrote:
I disagree. The increased immigration of "moderate Muslims" into the western civilization increases the likelyhood of increased radical elements and their actions. Of which no one has any control or will have any control.
The children of immigrants often have identity issues that asshole extremists typically exploit.
First of all, what the hell is that supposed to mean?Reciprocity wrote:
how?Deadmonkiefart wrote:
That's a bit of a generalization to say the least.RoosterCantrell wrote:
No religeon is evil. A religeon it's texts, its structure, alone can harm NO ONE. It's the people who wield it, and thier interpretations of it.
did someone beat the shit out of you with a 10lb. bible.?
Second of all, there have been many religions that would be considered "evil" by modern day standards.
Being selective in immigration is what we should do. You can't just ban all Muslims from entry. Filter them. Only accept the ones that prove to be more moderate. This means keeping fanatical clerics out.lowing wrote:
Sooooooooooo........you are gunna agree with me then?? Or what??Turquoise wrote:
Most of the problems in countries like the U.K. with fanatical Muslims involve a few clerics that do what they can to rally disaffected youths. First generation immigrants usually aren't the problem -- it's the 2nd gens.lowing wrote:
I disagree. The increased immigration of "moderate Muslims" into the western civilization increases the likelyhood of increased radical elements and their actions. Of which no one has any control or will have any control.
The children of immigrants often have identity issues that asshole extremists typically exploit.
Allright Lowing, I will play your silly game. Lets look at some of the quotes from the man himself.
Quotes from Mohammed
"What actions are most excellent? To gladden the heart of human beings, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the sufferings of the injured"
"Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever is not kind has no faith"
"Whoever is kind, Allah will be kind to him; therefore be kind to man on the earth. He Who is in heaven will show mercy on you"
"Allah has revealed to me, that you must be humble. No one should boast over one another, and no one should oppress another"
"Verily, Allah is mild and is fond of mildness, and He gives to the mild what He does not give to the harsh."
"You will not enter paradise until you have faith; and you will not complete your faith till you love one another"
I could go on however I would run out of time. If you want to see more please go to http://www.islamfortoday.com . Lowing, I know you wont bother, but the link is there for anyone that wants to learn something about Islam.
As for this
Quotes from Mohammed
"What actions are most excellent? To gladden the heart of human beings, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the sufferings of the injured"
"Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever is not kind has no faith"
"Whoever is kind, Allah will be kind to him; therefore be kind to man on the earth. He Who is in heaven will show mercy on you"
"Allah has revealed to me, that you must be humble. No one should boast over one another, and no one should oppress another"
"Verily, Allah is mild and is fond of mildness, and He gives to the mild what He does not give to the harsh."
"You will not enter paradise until you have faith; and you will not complete your faith till you love one another"
I could go on however I would run out of time. If you want to see more please go to http://www.islamfortoday.com . Lowing, I know you wont bother, but the link is there for anyone that wants to learn something about Islam.
As for this
I think I have well and truly shown enough evidence that kindness and tolerance is a part of Mohammeds teachings.lowing wrote:
In other words, prove to me that the teachings of Islam is NOT violent and intolerant then I will concede. Prove to me that the Prophet Muhammad was not violent and intolerant. and I will concede.
I must say, I stand with you on this. It is nothing against the people who are a part of the religion. It is the religion itself and what it teaches that is so bothersome.lowing wrote:
Ummmmm, maybe you didn't draw a cartoon of their prophet? maybe you didn't talk to their sister?Braddock wrote:
Tell me lowing ...why have I never met a Muslim that I didn't find to be friendly, tolerant and easy to get along with? Where are all these 'bad' ones hiding?lowing wrote:
actually Cam there is no desperation at all to show what this religion is all about, ya can't swing a dead cat without hitting an article written by people that are vastly more informed about this shit than you are. I find it quite easy to do, and the articles easily found.
Their customs do not grate on me, it is people like you that think this religion is not dangerous to the rest of us, as it creeps ever so slowly deeper and deeper into our societies, that I find grating.
Let me ask you again, How many "isolated incidences" are required for you to see a pattern of violence and intolerance regarding this religion?
Once again I am forced to re-state my position. I did not ever say all Muslims are bad, all Muslims are terrorists we must kill all all Muslims or we must place all Muslims in ghettoes.
I speak about this religion, and this religion has been shown time and time again it is intolerant, it is unjust, it is violent and it does not fit with western morals and values. You all refuse to acknowlege this or that this is what I have said. Instead you accuse me of being a Nazi, endorsing genocide, or various other Hitleresque behavior. You do this to avoid agreeing with my arguments, so you must twist my argument into something I have never said or endorsed.
I am against this religion. It is violent it is stone age and it is intolerable and it does not blend in with western society.
Now when you respond, try and stick to what I have said this time.
Here is another link to The Peace of Islam... I also love the section on women in the above posters link...lolBurwhale the Avenger wrote:
Allright Lowing, I will play your silly game. Lets look at some of the quotes from the man himself.
Quotes from Mohammed
"What actions are most excellent? To gladden the heart of human beings, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the sufferings of the injured"
"Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever is not kind has no faith"
"Whoever is kind, Allah will be kind to him; therefore be kind to man on the earth. He Who is in heaven will show mercy on you"
"Allah has revealed to me, that you must be humble. No one should boast over one another, and no one should oppress another"
"Verily, Allah is mild and is fond of mildness, and He gives to the mild what He does not give to the harsh."
"You will not enter paradise until you have faith; and you will not complete your faith till you love one another"
I could go on however I would run out of time. If you want to see more please go to http://www.islamfortoday.com . Lowing, I know you wont bother, but the link is there for anyone that wants to learn something about Islam.
As for thisI think I have well and truly shown enough evidence that kindness and tolerance is a part of Mohammeds teachings.lowing wrote:
In other words, prove to me that the teachings of Islam is NOT violent and intolerant then I will concede. Prove to me that the Prophet Muhammad was not violent and intolerant. and I will concede.
http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch7.html
Last edited by [TUF]Catbox (2008-02-06 23:13:02)
Love is the answer
You certainly don't sound like you 'don't give a shit'. Nobody I know, including myself, suggests that society should be changed so as not to offend Islam. That is pure shit-talk right there. As an atheist I say no concessions affecting the secular nature of the enlightened world should be made to any religion. Dancing again in this thread I see: one second your talking about Saudi Arabia, the next you're referring to the west - make up your mind which you wanna talk about goddamit!!!lowing wrote:
I really don't give a shit either, I am just sick of hearing how great this religion is and how we need more understanding of it and how we need to welcome it into our midst. and change our society as t onot offend it.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-02-07 02:53:32)