what makes you think I care to answer that question?
Tu Stultus Es
you don't? k. have a nice day.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
I was asking you a question.
Tu Stultus Es
Why are you under some delusion that we don't think the Soviet Union/Russia ever accomplished anything positive?Shahter wrote:
well, obviously not everything you have been told about soviet union was true. you were given a specially manufactured version, which highlighted the flaws and hid the advantages. you were given facts without context, comparisons without perspective, told about events without historical background. that's called propaganda, and they are still at it, you can be sure of that.FEOS wrote:
So your argument is that--even though everything we were told by our lying, manipulating media about the Soviet Union was true--because they're so good at that (much better than the Russian media, apparently), nothing we are told now is true. Even though everything that we were told previously was true. And they are all in collusion--from Al-Jazeera to the BBC--to perpetuate this lie. Even though they do not tend to get along...but that is clearly to cement the lie in place, right?
You can see how this makes perfect sense so far, Shahter.
and no, you don't need a formal conspiracy when interests converge, and in today's globalized world they converge like never before in history.
Perhaps you are the one being fed propaganda...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
never said or implied anything like that.FEOS wrote:
Why are you under some delusion that we don't think the Soviet Union/Russia ever accomplished anything positive?Shahter wrote:
well, obviously not everything you have been told about soviet union was true. you were given a specially manufactured version, which highlighted the flaws and hid the advantages. you were given facts without context, comparisons without perspective, told about events without historical background. that's called propaganda, and they are still at it, you can be sure of that.FEOS wrote:
So your argument is that--even though everything we were told by our lying, manipulating media about the Soviet Union was true--because they're so good at that (much better than the Russian media, apparently), nothing we are told now is true. Even though everything that we were told previously was true. And they are all in collusion--from Al-Jazeera to the BBC--to perpetuate this lie. Even though they do not tend to get along...but that is clearly to cement the lie in place, right?
You can see how this makes perfect sense so far, Shahter.
and no, you don't need a formal conspiracy when interests converge, and in today's globalized world they converge like never before in history.
you, me - we are all being fed propaganda every day. unlike you, however, i actually experienced what soviet union was like for myself.Perhaps you are the one being fed propaganda...
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
But you seem to know exactly what living in the West is like...Shahter wrote:
never said or implied anything like that.FEOS wrote:
Why are you under some delusion that we don't think the Soviet Union/Russia ever accomplished anything positive?Shahter wrote:
well, obviously not everything you have been told about soviet union was true. you were given a specially manufactured version, which highlighted the flaws and hid the advantages. you were given facts without context, comparisons without perspective, told about events without historical background. that's called propaganda, and they are still at it, you can be sure of that.
and no, you don't need a formal conspiracy when interests converge, and in today's globalized world they converge like never before in history.you, me - we are all being fed propaganda every day. unlike you, however, i actually experienced what soviet union was like for myself.Perhaps you are the one being fed propaganda...
How do you reconcile the contradiction there? Nobody can have an opinion about the Soviet Union, because anything they know is based on lies from the propaganda-filled Western media--only your opinion is valid because you lived there. Our opinions on the West aren't valid because we are fed lies from the Western propaganda machine--only your opinion is valid...because your only source is...the propaganda machine...because you never lived there. Even though that's the basis of your dismissal of any opinions of the Soviet Union...
Recursive logic is a bitch, ain't it?
So you know exactly what living in the entirety of the Soviet Union was, for the entirety of its existence. Because you lived in a part of it for a portion of its existence. You know everything there is to know about it. Nobody else's opinion can possibly be valid or informed. Your opinion cannot possibly be wrong because of that.
Right.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
too much vodka
inane little opines
no. the only thing i know exactly is if there is a way to abuse a system it will be abused. and the system is full of holes - you and the rest of freedom-and-democracy crowd here are perfect examples of that.FEOS wrote:
But you seem to know exactly what living in the West is like...
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
how exactly am I and the "rest of the crowd" perfect examples of whatever it is you are talking about?Shahter wrote:
no. the only thing i know exactly is if there is a way to abuse a system it will be abused. and the system is full of holes - you and the rest of freedom-and-democracy crowd here are perfect examples of that.FEOS wrote:
But you seem to know exactly what living in the West is like...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
you have been sold that crap about soviet union we discussed earlier. you have been sold wmd'es in iraq. you have been sold obama - and i'm pretty sure you will be sold obama again. you are being sold "horrible dictators" in egypt, lybia, syria and i'm not sure who's next in line, you tell me. you are truly pathetic, man. it's a pity, really.FEOS wrote:
how exactly am I and the "rest of the crowd" perfect examples of whatever it is you are talking about?Shahter wrote:
no. the only thing i know exactly is if there is a way to abuse a system it will be abused. and the system is full of holes - you and the rest of freedom-and-democracy crowd here are perfect examples of that.FEOS wrote:
But you seem to know exactly what living in the West is like...
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
why do you fill the role of russian stereotype so easily?
Tu Stultus Es
It's really funny what you think I/we have been "sold".Shahter wrote:
you have been sold that crap about soviet union we discussed earlier. you have been sold wmd'es in iraq. you have been sold obama - and i'm pretty sure you will be sold obama again. you are being sold "horrible dictators" in egypt, lybia, syria and i'm not sure who's next in line, you tell me. you are truly pathetic, man. it's a pity, really.FEOS wrote:
how exactly am I and the "rest of the crowd" perfect examples of whatever it is you are talking about?Shahter wrote:
no. the only thing i know exactly is if there is a way to abuse a system it will be abused. and the system is full of holes - you and the rest of freedom-and-democracy crowd here are perfect examples of that.
Maybe it's you who've been "sold" things here. But then again, with the media in Russia, I would expect no less...particularly now.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
ah, now you assume that condescending tone again, bringing along "russian media"-schtick as if you actually knew what it reported. very well, come back to me when you have an argument.FEOS wrote:
It's really funny what you think I/we have been "sold".Shahter wrote:
you have been sold that crap about soviet union we discussed earlier. you have been sold wmd'es in iraq. you have been sold obama - and i'm pretty sure you will be sold obama again. you are being sold "horrible dictators" in egypt, lybia, syria and i'm not sure who's next in line, you tell me. you are truly pathetic, man. it's a pity, really.FEOS wrote:
how exactly am I and the "rest of the crowd" perfect examples of whatever it is you are talking about?
Maybe it's you who've been "sold" things here. But then again, with the media in Russia, I would expect no less...particularly now.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Shahter, there's bound to be some corruption in our system as well, that's unavoidable, though to say that we live in fake democracies is ludicrous. No, there's not some behind-the-scenes conspiracy of evil invisible men manipulating candidates, election results and every action our governments take. That's conspiracy nutter mumbo jumbo right there and shows a real lack of understanding of our societies, their workings and the culture we live in.
inane little opines
Shocking wrote:
Shahter, there's bound to be some corruption in our system as well, that's unavoidable, though to say that we live in fake democracies is ludicrous. No, there's not some behind-the-scenes conspiracy of evil invisible men manipulating candidates, election results and every action our governments take. That's conspiracy nutter mumbo jumbo right there and shows a real lack of understanding of our societies, their workings and the culture we live in.
Shahter wrote:
you don't need a formal conspiracy when interests converge, and in today's globalized world they converge like never before in history.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Let's see...Shahter wrote:
ah, now you assume that condescending tone again, bringing along "russian media"-schtick as if you actually knew what it reported. very well, come back to me when you have an argument.FEOS wrote:
It's really funny what you think I/we have been "sold".Shahter wrote:
you have been sold that crap about soviet union we discussed earlier. you have been sold wmd'es in iraq. you have been sold obama - and i'm pretty sure you will be sold obama again. you are being sold "horrible dictators" in egypt, lybia, syria and i'm not sure who's next in line, you tell me. you are truly pathetic, man. it's a pity, really.
Maybe it's you who've been "sold" things here. But then again, with the media in Russia, I would expect no less...particularly now.
You admitted that what had been reported by "the lying Western media" about the Soviet Union was true earlier (technology, etc). I suppose the gulags didn't exist? There were no political prisoners? Stalin didn't really have any purges? All of that was made up by not just the media but also by Soviet citizens themselves, corroborated after the fall of the Berlin Wall? Yep. All propaganda.
I've actually read Russian media. I have to as part of the courses I'm taking. I've also had to analyze the changes in Russian media from the fall of the Soviet Union to today. Putin really shook things up. The fact that Russia was (and still is) one of the most dangerous places in the world for a journalist to work is telling. Oh wait...that's probably another propagandist lie. Journalists don't really get killed there, right? And media outlets don't really get shut down if they aren't Kremlin-friendly, right? All a bunch of propaganda.
Condescension? Not so much. Just facts, brother.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
It's still saying the exact same thing, 'evil men behind the scenes manipulating candidates, elections and the actions of the government'. That's what you've been propagating so far really.Shahter wrote:
Shocking wrote:
Shahter, there's bound to be some corruption in our system as well, that's unavoidable, though to say that we live in fake democracies is ludicrous. No, there's not some behind-the-scenes conspiracy of evil invisible men manipulating candidates, election results and every action our governments take. That's conspiracy nutter mumbo jumbo right there and shows a real lack of understanding of our societies, their workings and the culture we live in.Shahter wrote:
you don't need a formal conspiracy when interests converge, and in today's globalized world they converge like never before in history.
It doesn't happen.
inane little opines
they existed.FEOS wrote:
You admitted that what had been reported by "the lying Western media" about the Soviet Union was true earlier (technology, etc). I suppose the gulags didn't exist?
what do you do with those convicted of treason in usa?There were no political prisoners?
wow, they are quoting solzhenitsyn. lol. you know that his stuff is work a fiction, right? numbers are also way off. oh, do they mention that russia went through two revolutions and two wars right before the supposed "purges" happened? what about intervention? nothing? what about imminent ww2? did they make a comparison with what usually happened in other places after revolutions? no? hmmm...Stalin didn't really have any purges?
soviet citizens who were subjects to the same propaganda you have been. the fucking intelligensia who had no idea how soviet union actually operated. some sources! you want to speak to actual soviet people? i believe i can arrange that. i'm not a very good translator, but i think i'd manage. just don't mention solzhenitsyn again, k? it's utterly ridiculous.All of that was made up by not just the media but also by Soviet citizens themselves, corroborated after the fall of the Berlin Wall?
yep. most of it.Yep. All propaganda.
no, that's not a lie. i fail to see how that demonstrates anything. journalists are getting killed - that means what exactly? do you know how many people are getting killed in russia today? that wasn't happening in soviet union btw (during times of peace which only really came after ww2), why's nobody mentioning that?I've actually read Russian media. I have to as part of the courses I'm taking. I've also had to analyze the changes in Russian media from the fall of the Soviet Union to today. Putin really shook things up. The fact that Russia was (and still is) one of the most dangerous places in the world for a journalist to work is telling. Oh wait...that's probably another propagandist lie.
the way it's being portrayed - yes, propaganda.Journalists don't really get killed there, right? And media outlets don't really get shut down if they aren't Kremlin-friendly, right? All a bunch of propaganda.
your "facts" are all doctored. not exactly lies, but still manufactured. the only thing that can be told based on that is 1) russia's still way behind you in the ways of information manipulation and 2) somebody's rocking the boat.Condescension? Not so much. Just facts, brother.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
no, it's not the same. it's not "evil men manipulating", the system works itself. candidates ride the waves, lobbyists get behind the best riders, elections never really present any meaningful choice, government is completely owned by private interest. there's no formal conspiracy - no real need for it.Shocking wrote:
It's still saying the exact same thing, 'evil men behind the scenes manipulating candidates, elections and the actions of the government'.Shahter wrote:
Shocking wrote:
Shahter, there's bound to be some corruption in our system as well, that's unavoidable, though to say that we live in fake democracies is ludicrous. No, there's not some behind-the-scenes conspiracy of evil invisible men manipulating candidates, election results and every action our governments take. That's conspiracy nutter mumbo jumbo right there and shows a real lack of understanding of our societies, their workings and the culture we live in.Shahter wrote:
you don't need a formal conspiracy when interests converge, and in today's globalized world they converge like never before in history.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
The West doesn't put people who speak out against the government in concentration camps.Shahter wrote:
they existed.FEOS wrote:
You admitted that what had been reported by "the lying Western media" about the Soviet Union was true earlier (technology, etc). I suppose the gulags didn't exist?what do you do with those convicted of treason in usa?There were no political prisoners?
There was a revolution AFTER the Bolshevik revolution? In the 1930s? What imminent WW2? Hitler wasn't in power when the purges started, ffs. Nice attempt at spin, though.wow, they are quoting solzhenitsyn. lol. you know that his stuff is work a fiction, right? numbers are also way off. oh, do they mention that russia went through two revolutions and two wars right before the supposed "purges" happened? what about intervention? nothing? what about imminent ww2? did they make a comparison with what usually happened in other places after revolutions? no? hmmm...Stalin didn't really have any purges?
Erm...what? Soviet citizens who were subjected to Soviet media, then were interviewed by Western media after the fall of the Soviet Union. Not "intelligensia" but Joe Russian. Wow.soviet citizens who were subjects to the same propaganda you have been. the fucking intelligensia who had no idea how soviet union actually operated. some sources! you want to speak to actual soviet people? i believe i can arrange that. i'm not a very good translator, but i think i'd manage. just don't mention solzhenitsyn again, k? it's utterly ridiculous.All of that was made up by not just the media but also by Soviet citizens themselves, corroborated after the fall of the Berlin Wall?
And you say "we" have our heads in the sand...this is like a clown on fire.yep. most of it.Yep. All propaganda.
Because it's not randomno, that's not a lie. i fail to see how that demonstrates anything. journalists are getting killed - that means what exactly? do you know how many people are getting killed in russia today? that wasn't happening in soviet union btw (during times of peace which only really came after ww2), why's nobody mentioning that?I've actually read Russian media. I have to as part of the courses I'm taking. I've also had to analyze the changes in Russian media from the fall of the Soviet Union to today. Putin really shook things up. The fact that Russia was (and still is) one of the most dangerous places in the world for a journalist to work is telling. Oh wait...that's probably another propagandist lie.
"the way it's being portrayed"? Why? Because it doesn't cast the motherland in a glowing light?the way it's being portrayed - yes, propaganda.Journalists don't really get killed there, right? And media outlets don't really get shut down if they aren't Kremlin-friendly, right? All a bunch of propaganda.
Oh, good Lord. There's nothing doctored about any of that. Provide evidence that any of it--any of it--has been doctored. I suppose your inability to do so will just be further proof of the massive Western media propaganda conspiracy, eh?your "facts" are all doctored. not exactly lies, but still manufactured. the only thing that can be told based on that is 1) russia's still way behind you in the ways of information manipulation and 2) somebody's rocking the boat.Condescension? Not so much. Just facts, brother.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
What the actual fuck? The facts around Stalin's mass deportations, state terror and the resulting deaths are 'doctored'? I guess all the generations of academia researching the subject using documentation from soviet archives about the plans, population statistics of certain areas in particular time periods and actual quotes from Stalin himself on the matters are all full of shit then.
Shahter has it all figured out. Close the faculties of history in the west. They're conjuring the numbers out of thin air. Stalin committed no genocides. Stalin just did what he had to, to help the soviet people. It's not as if he regarded the peasantry in the union as being second class citizens and did his best to significantly reduce them in number (he even complained the 'kulaks' hadn't been finished off yet in the midst of the fucking ukrainian famine, but I guess that quote was doctored as well). It's not as if he suffered from severe paranoia and went batshit in the latter years of his life, causing even more senseless death and destruction than he already did. Nope, all lies.
It's fucking amazing how from the upswing of anti-stalinist movements in the 1980s (in the SU fyi) as new previously undisclosed information was then released on Stalin's actions, modern russians like Shahter look back on the man with respect and some form of nostalgia despite the fact that he killed millions for no reason at all. That's all just made up by lying russians and western historians.
Shahter has it all figured out. Close the faculties of history in the west. They're conjuring the numbers out of thin air. Stalin committed no genocides. Stalin just did what he had to, to help the soviet people. It's not as if he regarded the peasantry in the union as being second class citizens and did his best to significantly reduce them in number (he even complained the 'kulaks' hadn't been finished off yet in the midst of the fucking ukrainian famine, but I guess that quote was doctored as well). It's not as if he suffered from severe paranoia and went batshit in the latter years of his life, causing even more senseless death and destruction than he already did. Nope, all lies.
It's fucking amazing how from the upswing of anti-stalinist movements in the 1980s (in the SU fyi) as new previously undisclosed information was then released on Stalin's actions, modern russians like Shahter look back on the man with respect and some form of nostalgia despite the fact that he killed millions for no reason at all. That's all just made up by lying russians and western historians.
inane little opines
Small group in New Hampshire released this proPaul antiHuntsman ad.
Paul disavowed it. Cool. According to the proPaul internet hive mind the video was a conspiracy to make Paul look bad.
Paul disavowed it. Cool. According to the proPaul internet hive mind the video was a conspiracy to make Paul look bad.
That was one of the stupidest ads I've ever seen.
"ZOMG! The ambassador to China speaks Chinese! He must hate America!"
"ZOMG! The ambassador to China speaks Chinese! He must hate America!"
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
I find the whole concept of a media conspiracy against Ron Paul a little silly, considering how many times I've heard talk show hosts say they couldn't get in contact with the guy or get him on their show.
In most of the news articles I've read over the past month, if he's mentioned at all it's in passing along with a comment about him being unelectable.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
I find the whole concept of a media conspiracy against Ron Paul a little silly, considering how many times I've heard talk show hosts say they couldn't get in contact with the guy or get him on their show.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat