I said it once when I saw the map... gee calm down lolusmarine2005 wrote:
Just shut the fuck up and talk about the subject. Jesus fucking christ. How many times are you going to say that?Soldier-Of-Wasteland wrote:
I didn't know your taxes that go to the war funding help people in Iraq and Afghanistan get help, while it could benefit your health instead
No...you have been droning on about "building bombs, guns, blah blah blah blah"Soldier-Of-Wasteland wrote:
I said it once when I saw the map... gee calm down lolusmarine2005 wrote:
Just shut the fuck up and talk about the subject. Jesus fucking christ. How many times are you going to say that?Soldier-Of-Wasteland wrote:
I didn't know your taxes that go to the war funding help people in Iraq and Afghanistan get help, while it could benefit your health instead
Cause it's true! It could be used for healthcare instead. I don't support war, so why should my taxes pay for that? I'm just comparing here.
No one answered any of the different scenarios here..Soldier-Of-Wasteland wrote:
So if uncle sams pay anyway, then it is universal care no? If I have no insurance at all here, the province automatically covers me, and I don't have to pay for anything. Is it the same for you?
If Sams pay, why in the case of someone who had cancer, did he need to pay 70000$ ?? I don't get it.
Here, if you make 0$/year, 10000$/year, or that you're a multimillionaire, it doesn't matter. If you go to the hospital for a simple bandaid, or the most complicated brain-surgery, you will never ever ever be billed for it. I watched the video, and at some point the lady mentioned something about being billed later (@ 3:23, roughly)! wtf is that lol, I thought Sam was paying!
I just remembered something, and would like to know how it would work in the US.. 3 years ago, I went, with my gf, back "home" to where I grew up, to show are my childhood place, which is in another province (thus another health-care system, since it is provincial), and she started te feel very ill. So we went to the hospital, waited maybe an hour at the most, and she went through many tests, including pregnancy, just in case. Turned out she had mono. But since she was from another province, she had no insurance, nothing except the basic provincial medicare, they got billed for the super amount of 0$.
And last winter (12 months ago. heh) she had very strong headaches, and even got her vision blurred. She went for a few brain scans and all, still uncovered, and stayed overnight at the hospital, and it cost nothing. And since then she had no job, she was not paying taxes, so she basically had all of that for free (including the mono thing)
And there is the case of one of my friends, who has some weird form of arthritis since like birth. She tried many types of medicine, treatments, experimental or not, and never paid a penny for that.
There are a lot of things I do not support that I have to pay for. As do you. You better find an island and live by yourself if you don't like it. But what you fail to see is that war has nothing to do with it.Soldier-Of-Wasteland wrote:
Cause it's true! It could be used for healthcare instead. I don't support war, so why should my taxes pay for that? I'm just comparing here.
75 years old? She hasn't got too long left, that's why. Joking. But not really.
The NHS is slow, but it is free.
The NHS is slow, but it is free.
Anyhow I like the way the system works here. If you like yours, then so be it, I'll enjoy mine on my side. Maybe you'll change your mind when someone really dear to you dies because of a financial issue.
I prefer the idea of universal healthcare provided by state governments rather than the feds. Still, no socialized plan will work until we secure the border.
Independent Health Care system > Universal Health Care System.
It should be like car insurance, your monthly payments are based on your activities.
It should be like car insurance, your monthly payments are based on your activities.
Universal Health Care will only work as long as the majority of people are employed, and contribute to the system financially. Also, the majority of people has to be healthy for an extended period of time, and thus not need the system ( i.e. drain money out if it ).
We see this in germany this year. Last year, unemployment was relatively high, and the resulting lower number of people paying into the NHS through their taxes led to the NHS being in financial troubles. THis year, however, with unemployment down considerably, the number of people paying into the NHS system is higher, resulting in the NHS actually making a profit, that can be used for "slower" years.
NHS and private insurers co-exist, btw.
The problem that any Health Care system has, be it state-sponsored or wholly private, is that the costs for treatment are much higher than what the average person pays as a monthly fee.
I think basic health care should be free in any country. But you need to keep your citizens healthy ( healthy diet, regular exercise, no smoking or heavy drinking, for example ) and employed for it to work.
That's why I hate selfish people who do not take care of their body properly. They are the ones who make it so expensive for the rest of us.
Obesity, Smoking, drinking. Take those away, and you'll never have problems financing proper free health care for everyone.
We see this in germany this year. Last year, unemployment was relatively high, and the resulting lower number of people paying into the NHS through their taxes led to the NHS being in financial troubles. THis year, however, with unemployment down considerably, the number of people paying into the NHS system is higher, resulting in the NHS actually making a profit, that can be used for "slower" years.
NHS and private insurers co-exist, btw.
The problem that any Health Care system has, be it state-sponsored or wholly private, is that the costs for treatment are much higher than what the average person pays as a monthly fee.
I think basic health care should be free in any country. But you need to keep your citizens healthy ( healthy diet, regular exercise, no smoking or heavy drinking, for example ) and employed for it to work.
That's why I hate selfish people who do not take care of their body properly. They are the ones who make it so expensive for the rest of us.
Obesity, Smoking, drinking. Take those away, and you'll never have problems financing proper free health care for everyone.
The fact that about 35% of Americans would vote for Hillary shows we are fucking brain dead. You won't have to sell it, the gaping hole mouths of the entitlement class are always looking for a free meal.
Have the EU administer your health care plan. That would be a closer scenario to what we are faced with.CameronPoe wrote:
From the European PoV I would have to say that universal healthcare is and should be a basic part of the living standard that comes with being in Europe. The fact that it suffers from massive inefficienies is irrelevant - it's a necessity. If education is wholly tax-funded then why should it not be the same for healthcare - a far more critical necessity to ensure the needy stay afloat in a tough world. Private schemes operating in parallel mean you also have the best of both worlds. I don't see the issue with universal healthcare in Europe - so you have to wait for an operation if you're poor: big wow. The problem in the US I think is that it's almost too late for them to bring in a system like that - it's practically impossible.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
I agree with that. I actually had an argument at work about should the employer have a smoking section at work? I stated that the company pays a lot of money for your benefits, and it is up to them whether they want to support smokers or not. I also feel, and could be wrong, that because of their unhealthy habits, I have to pay more for my health care. Anyway, the argument ended when she went outside to smoke.B.Schuss wrote:
They are the ones who make it so expensive for the rest of us.
Obesity, Smoking, drinking. Take those away, and you'll never have problems financing proper free health care for everyone.
States can do it better. Florida is on it's way.
http://baynews9.com/content/36/2007/12/ … +drug+plan
http://baynews9.com/content/36/2007/12/ … +drug+plan
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Good point. And they thought Bush pandered to the evil Jews...wait till she gets in there.ATG wrote:
The fact that about 35% of Americans would vote for Hillary shows we are fucking brain dead. You won't have to sell it, the gaping hole mouths of the entitlement class are always looking for a free meal.
If you look at the polls Hillary leads among Dems but falls short with the swing voters (the REPS that would vote Dem). Obama stands a much better chance overall. But he is behind Hillary on the Dem side.usmarine2005 wrote:
Good point. And they thought Bush pandered to the evil Jews...wait till she gets in there.ATG wrote:
The fact that about 35% of Americans would vote for Hillary shows we are fucking brain dead. You won't have to sell it, the gaping hole mouths of the entitlement class are always looking for a free meal.
Hillary knows this now.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008 … amp;page=1
Xbone Stormsurgezz
A lot of you folks are missing the main crux of the "guns versus butter" argument.
Most people think that means "military" versus "social services".
Nothing could be further from the truth.
In the "guns versus butter" argument, "guns" are something that we can't provide individually. "Butter" is something we can.
There are certain things in a society which the individual CAN NOT provide himself. Chief among those are roads, police, fire fighting services, a military, a court system, et al... Those things have to be paid for communally.
Other things, Food, Health care, Shelter, can indeed by furnished by the individual, and SHOULD BE.
If you need to get to Utah, you can't build yourself a road. If you're hungry, you can procure your own food. Get it?
Many, many, many of my patients who are on Medicaid (our free social assistance healthcare system in the United States) have cellular phones, cable television, etc. They aren't destitute, asking us to help heal them because they have no ability to pay for their healthcare. They're asking us to take care of their healthcare costs because they want all the luxuries that the rest of us have. Screw them. If you have no cable TV, no cell phone, no Ralph Lauren clothes, then I don't mind you getting some minimum level of free healthcare. If you have a computer and you think you deserve free healthcare, as someone who earns his living in healthcare, FUCK YOU.
Most people think that means "military" versus "social services".
Nothing could be further from the truth.
In the "guns versus butter" argument, "guns" are something that we can't provide individually. "Butter" is something we can.
There are certain things in a society which the individual CAN NOT provide himself. Chief among those are roads, police, fire fighting services, a military, a court system, et al... Those things have to be paid for communally.
Other things, Food, Health care, Shelter, can indeed by furnished by the individual, and SHOULD BE.
If you need to get to Utah, you can't build yourself a road. If you're hungry, you can procure your own food. Get it?
Many, many, many of my patients who are on Medicaid (our free social assistance healthcare system in the United States) have cellular phones, cable television, etc. They aren't destitute, asking us to help heal them because they have no ability to pay for their healthcare. They're asking us to take care of their healthcare costs because they want all the luxuries that the rest of us have. Screw them. If you have no cable TV, no cell phone, no Ralph Lauren clothes, then I don't mind you getting some minimum level of free healthcare. If you have a computer and you think you deserve free healthcare, as someone who earns his living in healthcare, FUCK YOU.
I make about 47000$ a year, and I have "free" (paid by taxes) healthcare, just like my neighbor, who's on welfare, and my boss who makes about 500000 a year. I can go to the hospital whenever I need to without worrying about how much it'll cost me. My GF this past summer got 2 MRI, ain't got billed for that. And my mom just got out of the hospital, spent 5 days there, went through a bunch of MRI because she almost had a stroke, she'll never get billed for that, which is good cause she has very limited income. If she would have paid for that, she'd be on the streets by now.
My dad got his thumb cut off, completely, and got it reattached, at no costs. And my cousin, about 15 years ago, almost cracked opened his head playing hockey, and had to be rushed to a hospital by helicopter, and he never got billed for that.
I have 2 computers. And I have free healthcare, just like everybody in all the the wealthy, industrialized nations (except one haha).
And I think that there should be no price on health. You need to get fixed, then get fixed. Money should never be a matter or a concern.
My dad got his thumb cut off, completely, and got it reattached, at no costs. And my cousin, about 15 years ago, almost cracked opened his head playing hockey, and had to be rushed to a hospital by helicopter, and he never got billed for that.
I have 2 computers. And I have free healthcare, just like everybody in all the the wealthy, industrialized nations (except one haha).
And I think that there should be no price on health. You need to get fixed, then get fixed. Money should never be a matter or a concern.
Last edited by Soldier-Of-Wasteland (2007-12-20 19:15:19)
A socialized, doctors-make-as-much-as-the-rest-of-us system is fine if that was the system when Dr. Smith went to medical school, knowing he was going to make a lousy 100,000 a year. People who are middle managers for UPS or regional managers for WalMart COULD NOT have been top flight doctors (99 times our of 100).
Set up a system where the doctors make as much money as middle managers at WalMart, and see how long it takes for ALL the best and brightest college students to choose Law School, or Business School, or some sort of technology profession over medical school. Then we're left with the spare ass middle of the road college graduates in medical school, and the STARS in other professions.
No thanks. I WANT my doctors to be RICH. Sick ass stupid rich. Why? I want the Valedictorian in college to think "hmmm... MBA or med school? Screw it, I'll be a Cardiologist and make 1.2 million a year." Give me the most ambitious, smartest, most driven people in MEd School, and leave the middle-of-the-roaders for something else.
I've got NO interest in being treated by a bunch of people who only went to medical school because the top of their class went to Law School, and they consequently couldn't get in...
Why do you think that the rich from the rest of the world come here when they're sick? You can squawk all that socialized medicine bullshit you want but when someone in Sweden has cancer, or someone in Canada needs a transplant, if they can afford it they get their ass to our "unfair" system poste haste and leave all that "fair system where everybody gets free care" bullshit to the poor.
Set up a system where the doctors make as much money as middle managers at WalMart, and see how long it takes for ALL the best and brightest college students to choose Law School, or Business School, or some sort of technology profession over medical school. Then we're left with the spare ass middle of the road college graduates in medical school, and the STARS in other professions.
No thanks. I WANT my doctors to be RICH. Sick ass stupid rich. Why? I want the Valedictorian in college to think "hmmm... MBA or med school? Screw it, I'll be a Cardiologist and make 1.2 million a year." Give me the most ambitious, smartest, most driven people in MEd School, and leave the middle-of-the-roaders for something else.
I've got NO interest in being treated by a bunch of people who only went to medical school because the top of their class went to Law School, and they consequently couldn't get in...
Why do you think that the rich from the rest of the world come here when they're sick? You can squawk all that socialized medicine bullshit you want but when someone in Sweden has cancer, or someone in Canada needs a transplant, if they can afford it they get their ass to our "unfair" system poste haste and leave all that "fair system where everybody gets free care" bullshit to the poor.
Last edited by Dersmikner (2007-12-20 19:39:12)
I thought the Army paid for all that shizzledizzlerizzlenizzlefizzle anywaysGunSlinger OIF II wrote:
I got fixed for free. Thanks TRICARE.
You know, not everyone who is on Medicaid abuses the system. If you honestly believe that to be the case, you have a lot to learn about what poverty really is.Dersmikner wrote:
A lot of you folks are missing the main crux of the "guns versus butter" argument.
Most people think that means "military" versus "social services".
Nothing could be further from the truth.
In the "guns versus butter" argument, "guns" are something that we can't provide individually. "Butter" is something we can.
There are certain things in a society which the individual CAN NOT provide himself. Chief among those are roads, police, fire fighting services, a military, a court system, et al... Those things have to be paid for communally.
Other things, Food, Health care, Shelter, can indeed by furnished by the individual, and SHOULD BE.
If you need to get to Utah, you can't build yourself a road. If you're hungry, you can procure your own food. Get it?
Many, many, many of my patients who are on Medicaid (our free social assistance healthcare system in the United States) have cellular phones, cable television, etc. They aren't destitute, asking us to help heal them because they have no ability to pay for their healthcare. They're asking us to take care of their healthcare costs because they want all the luxuries that the rest of us have. Screw them. If you have no cable TV, no cell phone, no Ralph Lauren clothes, then I don't mind you getting some minimum level of free healthcare. If you have a computer and you think you deserve free healthcare, as someone who earns his living in healthcare, FUCK YOU.
It's like welfare... not everyone abuses it. In fact, most people on it only temporarily use it for a matter of months. Medicaid is obviously a different situation, but the fact remains that our current system is broken. States need to take up the reins on socializing healthcare, because the feds are incompetent idiots.
The only role the federal government needs to take in this involves limiting how much HMOs and pharmaceutical companies can fuck us with unscrupulous policies and overcharging.
I prefer being fixed by a doctor who cares about his (or her) patients, rather than by one who sees me as a cash whore for his (or her) own greed.
The only big problem here is that, yes sometimes we have to wait maybe 6-8 hours in the emergency room, because too many morons with a common cold go there and clog the system a bit. Get rid of those and everything is fine.
But you don't have to wait if your condition puts you in a dangerous position, like if you're having an heart-attack, or a stroke, or other critical conditions. Like the thing I mentioned a few times about my mom earlier.. she didn't even called the ambulance, she just went straight to the hospital with a friend, told the lady at the desk of her symptoms, and they knew it was serious, so she didn't wait.
The only big problem here is that, yes sometimes we have to wait maybe 6-8 hours in the emergency room, because too many morons with a common cold go there and clog the system a bit. Get rid of those and everything is fine.
But you don't have to wait if your condition puts you in a dangerous position, like if you're having an heart-attack, or a stroke, or other critical conditions. Like the thing I mentioned a few times about my mom earlier.. she didn't even called the ambulance, she just went straight to the hospital with a friend, told the lady at the desk of her symptoms, and they knew it was serious, so she didn't wait.
If a pharmaceutical company SPENDS IT'S OWN MONEY, hires employees, builds labs, and spends 5 years and finally develops a cure for something, and then wants to charge you a hundred thousand dollars a pill, who the hell are you to say they can't? If you don't like it, start a pharmaceutical company. The market will take care of it. If people are willing to pay the price, they'll sell their shit and make money, if not, they'll lower their price. Trust me.
It's your right to start a construction company, build a piece of shit house, and ask 5 million dollars for it. You won't sell many like that, but that's the way it works. Surprisingly, if you do ask that much some other dude will build one and sell it for $200,000 and sell a ton of them.
If pharmaceutical companies were raping us all, you'd see their stocks going through the roof, you'd see Microsoft and GM buying them, and EVERYBODY'd be trying it.
Aside form that, even if they were all making gazillions, you have absolutely NO RIGHT to expect that a pharmaceutical company (meaning its employees) will invest in research and development, work long hours, expend their energy and time, and create something that didn't exist twenty years ago, and give it to you for what YOU think is a fair price. You know, I think that a knee replacement surgery is WAY too f-ing expensive, so I ain't getting one, but I don't titty-baby whine about the price.
Hey, how the HELL can Microsoft charge $400 for an X-box 360? BY GOD I DEMAND that they lower the price. It's my right for other people to create, invest, and work so I can have what I want... isn't it?
It's your right to start a construction company, build a piece of shit house, and ask 5 million dollars for it. You won't sell many like that, but that's the way it works. Surprisingly, if you do ask that much some other dude will build one and sell it for $200,000 and sell a ton of them.
If pharmaceutical companies were raping us all, you'd see their stocks going through the roof, you'd see Microsoft and GM buying them, and EVERYBODY'd be trying it.
Aside form that, even if they were all making gazillions, you have absolutely NO RIGHT to expect that a pharmaceutical company (meaning its employees) will invest in research and development, work long hours, expend their energy and time, and create something that didn't exist twenty years ago, and give it to you for what YOU think is a fair price. You know, I think that a knee replacement surgery is WAY too f-ing expensive, so I ain't getting one, but I don't titty-baby whine about the price.
Hey, how the HELL can Microsoft charge $400 for an X-box 360? BY GOD I DEMAND that they lower the price. It's my right for other people to create, invest, and work so I can have what I want... isn't it?
Last edited by Dersmikner (2007-12-20 20:34:40)
Crack down on frivolous law suits and a good portion of this problem goes away (except for the unemployed attorneys). We already spend the money on healthcare.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
But for some reasons, UHC works in every wealthy and industrialized country except the US.