Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6626|132 and Bush

Freedom Speech VS. Treason
Seditious Speech and Seditious Libel.—Opposition to government through speech alone has been subject to punishment throughout much of history under laws proscribing “seditious” utterances. In this country, the Sedition Act of 1798 made criminal, inter alia, malicious writings which defamed, brought into contempt or disrepute, or excited the hatred of the people against the Government, the President, or the Congress, or which stirred people to sedition.966 In New York Times Co. v. Sullivan,967 the Court surveyed the controversy surrounding the enactment and enforcement of the Sedition Act and concluded that debate “first crystallized a national awareness of the central meaning of the First Amendment.... Although the Sedition Act was never tested in this Court, the attack upon its validity has carried the day in the court of history .... [That history] reflect[s] a broad consensus that the Act, because of the restraint it imposed upon criticism of government and public officials, was inconsistent with the First Amendment.” The “central meaning” discerned by the Court, quoting Madison’s comment that in a republican government “the censorial power is in the people over the Government, and not in the Government over the people,” is that “[t]he right of free public discussion of the stewardship of public officials was thus, in Madison’s view, a fundamental principle of the American form of government.”

War protests

The Supreme Court under Chief Justice Earl Warren expanded free speech protections in the 1960s, though there were exceptions. However, in 1968, the Court upheld a law prohibiting the mutilation of draft cards in United States v. O'Brien 391 U.S. 367 (1968). The Court ruled that protesters could not burn draft cards because doing so would interfere with the "smooth and efficient functioning" of the draft system. Then again, in 1971, the court found that a person could not be punished for wearing, in the corridors of the Los Angeles county Courthouse, a jacket reading "Fuck the Draft," Cohen v. California (403 U.S. 15).

In 1969, the Supreme Court ruled that free speech rights extended to students in school while deciding Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, 393 U.S. 503 (1969). The case involved several students who were punished for wearing black arm-bands to protest the Vietnam War. The Supreme Court ruled that the school could not restrict symbolic speech that did not cause undue interruptions of school activities. Justice Abe Fortas wrote, "schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students...are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State." The decision was arguably overruled, or at least undermined, by Bethel School District v. Fraser 478 U.S. 675 (1986), in which the Court held a student could be punished for his speech before a public assembly.

Also in 1969, the Court decided the landmark Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969) , which overruled Whitney v. California 274 U.S. 357 (1927), a case in which a woman was imprisoned for aiding the Communist Party. Brandenburg effectively swept away Dennis as well, casting the right to speak freely of violent action and revolution in broad terms: "[Our] decisions have fashioned the principle that the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." Some claim that Brandenburg essentially sets forth a reworded "clear and present danger" test, but the accuracy of such statements is hard to judge. The Court has never heard or decided a case involving seditious speech since Brandenburg was handed down.
Remarkably, the Supreme Court did not consider a single case in which it was asked to strike down a federal law on the basis of the free speech clause until the twentieth century. The Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 were never ruled upon by the Supreme Court, and even the leading critics of the law, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, argued for the laws' unconstitutionality on the basis of the Tenth Amendment, not the First Amendment.

After World War I, several cases involving laws limiting speech came before the Supreme Court. The Espionage Act of 1917 imposed a maximum sentence of twenty years for anyone who caused or attempted to cause "insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty in the military or naval forces of the United States." Under the Act, over two thousand prosecutions were commenced. For instance, one filmmaker was sentenced to ten years imprisonment because his portrayal of British soldiers in a movie about the American Revolution impugned the good faith of an American ally, the United Kingdom. The Sedition Act of 1918 went even further, criminalizing "disloyal," "scurrilous" or "abusive" language against the government.

The Constitution of the United States, Art. III, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort. This offence is punished with death. By the same article of the Constitution, no person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.


So what say you? Where is the line (if any)? Should an enlisted person have the same rights?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6787

I think the saw what they fought for was ruined by politicians.  However most of them were forced to serve.  Today, people volunteer.  It is an all volunteer military.  I mean, what the fuck did you think you were joining for?  College money?  Well if so, then you are a dumb fuck.

So no, I do not think troops should have these same rights.  To steal and badly paraphrase a line from Crimson Tide.  "We are here to preserve democracy, not practice it."
bonedoc69
Member
+36|6436|Eugene, Oregon U.S.A.
I don't see a difference between a citizen and a citizen soldier, How can we offer rights to some and not to others. free speech should be protected at all costs imo, however an exception should be made in instances of national security, or the safety of other soldiers.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6626|132 and Bush

usmarine2005 wrote:

I think the saw what they fought for was ruined by politicians.  However most of them were forced to serve.  Today, people volunteer.  It is an all volunteer military.  I mean, what the fuck did you think you were joining for?  College money?  Well if so, then you are a dumb fuck.

So no, I do not think troops should have these same rights.  To steal and badly paraphrase a line from Crimson Tide.  "We are here to preserve democracy, not practice it."
It still happens in today's volunteer military... although not nearly as much.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6787

Kmarion wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

I think the saw what they fought for was ruined by politicians.  However most of them were forced to serve.  Today, people volunteer.  It is an all volunteer military.  I mean, what the fuck did you think you were joining for?  College money?  Well if so, then you are a dumb fuck.

So no, I do not think troops should have these same rights.  To steal and badly paraphrase a line from Crimson Tide.  "We are here to preserve democracy, not practice it."
It still happens in today's volunteer military... although not nearly as much.
I know.  The ones that do are usually the tough guys who are tough until the metal meets the meat and then they realize what the fuck they signed up for....and cannot handle it.  So, instead of having a gut check of who they really are, they puss out and protest.

Last edited by usmarine2005 (2007-12-12 21:42:03)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6626|132 and Bush

usmarine2005 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

I think the saw what they fought for was ruined by politicians.  However most of them were forced to serve.  Today, people volunteer.  It is an all volunteer military.  I mean, what the fuck did you think you were joining for?  College money?  Well if so, then you are a dumb fuck.

So no, I do not think troops should have these same rights.  To steal and badly paraphrase a line from Crimson Tide.  "We are here to preserve democracy, not practice it."
It still happens in today's volunteer military... although not nearly as much.
I know.  The ones that do are usually the tough guys who are tough until the metal meets the meat and then they realize what the fuck they signed up for....and cannot handle it.  So, instead of having a gut check of who they really are, they puss out and protest.
You know whats funny is all of my friends that are serving or have served don't really care about politics. For them it's just a job. They might tell me how crazy the Cubans were when they were jumping off the cliffs, but that's about as far as it goes..lol.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6700|Canberra, AUS
I thought treason was actually defined (and is the only crime to be so) in the Constitution? Wasn't it just 'aiding the enemy' or words to that effect?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6436|'Murka

I agree with marine completely.

The military may defend democracy, but it isn't one itself.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6626|132 and Bush

Spark wrote:

I thought treason was actually defined (and is the only crime to be so) in the Constitution? Wasn't it just 'aiding the enemy' or words to that effect?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Th … 3:_Treason
Section 3 defines treason and its punishment.

    Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

    The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

The Constitution defines treason as specific acts, namely "levying War against [the United States], or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." A contrast is therefore maintained with the English law, whereby a variety of crimes, including conspiring to kill the King or "violating" the Queen, were punishable as treason. In Ex Parte Bollman (1807), the Supreme Court ruled that "there must be an actual assembling of men, for the treasonable purpose, to constitute a levying of war".

Under English law effective during the ratification of the U.S. Constitution, there were essentially five species of treason. Of the five, the Constitution adopted only two: levying war and adhering to enemies. Omitted were species of treason involving encompassing (or imagining) the death of the king, certain types of counterfeiting and fornication with women in the royal family of the sort that would call into question the parentage of successors. One important distinction is that the encompassing the death species of treason was most used by the English government to silence political opposition and was expressly excluded by the authors. In fact, James Wilson wrote the original draft of this section, and he was involved as a defense attorney for some accused of treason against the Patriot cause.

Section 3 also requires the testimony of two different witnesses on the same "overt" act, or a confession by the accused in open court, to convict for treason. This rule was derived from an older British law, the Treason Act 1695. In Cramer v. United States, the Supreme Court ruled that "every act, movement, deed, and word of the defendant charged to constitute treason must be supported by the testimony of two witnesses." In Haupt v. United States, however, the Supreme Court found that two witnesses are not required to prove intent; nor are two witnesses required to prove that an overt act is treasonable. The two witnesses, according to the decision, are required to prove only that the overt act actually occurred.

Punishment for treason may not "work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person" so convicted. The descendants of someone convicted for treason could not, as they were under English law, be considered "tainted" by the treason of their ancestor. Furthermore, Congress may confiscate the property of traitors, but that property must be inheritable at the death of the person convicted.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6740|US
It is not treason to protest, but the military does place restrictions on how a military member can protest.  The military has to worry about "good order and discipline," so it gets some extra leeway.
CoronadoSEAL
pics or it didn't happen
+207|6543|USA
this one is kind of a stretch, but...

https://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5357/42918307sj7.png

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2024 Jeff Minard